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Author Topic: kill or don't kill - does God change?  (Read 16268 times)

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rrammfcitktturjsp

  • Guest
Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2007, 12:29:30 AM »

Okay guys,

  Here's some Scriptures.

  Malachi 3:6 - "I the Lord do not change."

  Hebrews 13:8 - "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."

  I am sure there are others that say that God does not change.  I guess these two Scriptures are enough to answer the question for me whether God changes or not.

  Of course you could argue this logically with the definition of God having a will that cannot be thwarted or any other premise.

  Sincerely,



  Anne C. McGuire
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2007, 01:10:09 AM »

Hey Guys and Gals, well done on a very interesting question from Sorin.

Sorin, I think I have an answer for you that may seem very simplistic and not outside the confines of most of the other posts.

What I have learned is that there God has three very distinct stages and to a very large extent, so do we as his people.

Rev 1:8
  • I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

I think the answer to your question of God changing is found in the above verse. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the ending.

But what is more important, is that he is the WAS, the IS and WHICH WILL BECOME.

These are three very distinct stages and a clearly seen as such in both the Old and New Testaments. It is my understanding that God, the WAS is found in the Old Testament. These were the days of the physical.Have you ever noticed that many (if not all) references to Angels in the OT are of men who ate, slept, etc. There are no such references of angels after the birth of Christ; angels are then spiritual.

I maybe off base here, but I do not believe that the GOD of the OT should be compared to the NT because the message ist totally different. Here is why I believe this is true.

1Cr 15:45
  • And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.


The Physical Laws, Kings, prophets, etc. of the OT are for our benefit far more than it was for theirs. They had God as their leader, he spoke to them and gave them all amounts of power, wealth and knowledge, but not one person who had it all, (to my knowledge) ever kept in good standing with God, not even Solomon. Obviously God's people did not learn in those days, for they were very much part of the world, just as God planned.

However, with the coming of Christ in human form saw the second phase of GOD, this is the IS part. Here, many things change; God's people are told not to be part of the world, in fact the lessons of Jesus were all parables and as such spiritual. Jesus taught humility, compassion and love. He taught that the the meek, not the mighty shall inherit the earth and that the first shall be last and the last shall be first and as mentioned previously, angels are only referenced spiritually. What is more, our faith too has to be in spirit.

Eph 2:8-9  
  • 8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
  • 9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Wherefore the God who was gave countless physical signs, the God who IS gives faith to who he chooses. The OT (in my opinion) cannot be compared to the NT for it is like apples and oranges. (I LOVE BOTH) This is not to say that valuable lessons cannot be found in both, for they can; but for the most part, the philosophy of both is different. I believe that the leson that the OT contains is that even with God helping them in clearly physical ways, carnal minded man was still not going to find salvation without Christ. Is that not a lesson for us still?

Who knows how the God who IS TO COME will differ from the those past? So does this mean that God changed or does it mean that God is in control and all is happening according to his will which was set from the beginning?

Does this make sense to you or anyone?  Comments are always welcome. :)

Great question Sorin!

Love,
Darren
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2007, 01:36:53 AM »

Hi TRUTHSEEKER,

Your explanation certainly clarified this for me.  
I think you showed how the relative and absolute applies very well.

Quote
With God, the absolute truth is that he uses natural, phyical things of this life to bring about his purposes and plans. In this he never changed.

Quote
The absolute in this is always God.  He uses the physical to emerge with the spiritual.  This is not God changing at all.  The old covenant and its ten commandments were a schoolmaster for us so that we would know what the difference is between right and wrong.  When Christ's spirit enters and changes the lives of them that believe we no longer need laws written on tablets of stone because God's higher spiritual laws will be wriiten on our hearts and minds.  The spiritual is the fulfillment of the natural.  This is God's way.

Darren, you put the finnishing touch on it for me.

Quote
I believe that the leson that the OT contains is that even with God helping them in clearly physical ways, carnal minded man was still not going to find salvation without Christ.

Quote
The Physical Laws, Kings, prophets, etc. of the OT are for our benefit far more than it was for theirs. They had God as their leader, he spoke to them and gave them all amounts of power, wealth and knowledge, but not one person who had it all, (to my knowledge) ever kept in good standing with God, not even Solomon. Obviously God's people did not learn in those days, for they were very much part of the world, just as God planned.

I appreciate your answers to this, as it has given me a clear understanding, and settled this for me  :)

mercy, peace, and love
Kat


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DWIGHT

  • Guest
Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2007, 03:01:20 AM »

Darren, great post and Timothy don't worry about adding another twist to this thread, that's why we are all here.  So let's re-look at what we said.  Is the God of the OT different than the God of the NT?  Like so many have stated, "I am the Lord, I change not...." Mal. 3:6.  Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever.....etc., etc.  Can we really say that God (Jesus) is different today than He was in the OT?  His purpose has not changed.  He came in the OT to be God to His people and that they should live in the land that He promised to them.  And that He would dwell among them.  First in the tabernacle in the wilderness and then in the temple.  In both places He would only dwell in the holiest of all.  Only a few priests could get close to Him because the place where He was was holy.  He promised that land to Abraham and his seed.  That land was was precious because it was the only land where He Himself would dwell.  Anybody that was not a part of that seed was to be driven out, killed, annililated.  This was a type of what was to come.

In the NT, where does God (Jesus) now dwell?  He dwells in you and me, right?  What part of you and me does He dwell in?  He dwells in our human spirit which is now the holiest of all.  "..........and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Jn. 3:6  Our spirit is the place where He dwells.  It is now the holiest of all.  That's how we can worship Him in spirit and in truth because that's where He is.  We are the land, and within the land is the holiest of all where we can worship Him in spirit.  Now the rest of our land consists of the soul and the body, right?  That's where the battle is; that's where God is still driving out the old inhabitants of His land.

Have you ever heard Ray say, that when we die......what happens?  Our spirit goes back to God, our soul goes to hades, ( the unseen or imperceptable), and our body returns to the dust.  You know why are spirit goes back to God?.........Because He's in it.  Now all His people are in this holy land....the real holy land, not Palestine.  But in this land, God (Jesus) is still only letting a few priests get close to Him.  Why? Because we are a chosen generaton, a royal priesthood.

But as Darren says, He was, is and will be.  Well, we've seen the was and the is but what is He which shall come?  "And I turned to see the voice that spake with me.  And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; and in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the son of man clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.  His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; and his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength."  Rev. 1:12-16.  This is our meek Saviour that John is talking about.....kinda sounds like the same who was, and is.....In the midst of the churches, He's still the same; driving out and burning out all that does'nt belong in His land which is His Kingdom.

I hope this builds us up a little,

God bless,

Dwight,
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gmik

  • Guest
Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2007, 03:27:42 AM »

Good job Dwight.  Works for me.

gena


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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2007, 06:54:55 AM »

The power available through the comprehension of Absolute v/s Relative is but ONE of the principles we need to master in order to navigate with discernment, the Spirit of God. The Principles and the exercise of them give us eyes to see the invisible.

1 Tim 4 : 8 For physical training is of some value, useful for a little, but godliness, spiritual training is useful and of value in EVERYTHING and in every way, for it holds promise for the present life and also for the life which is to come.

Other principles that need to be exercised and acquired are scattered throughout the LOF. Pivotal to these power tools are the teachings on Twelve Truths to Understanding His Word .

7 SPIRITUAL KEYS TO UNLOCK SCRIPTURE
1.   "Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural (physical); and afterward that which is SPIRITUAL" (1 Cor. 15:45)
 
2.   "Now ALL these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for OUR ADMONITION (to reprove, caution, warn, remind of obligation or duty) upon whom the ends of the world are come" (1 Cor. 10:11)
 
3.   "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of an private interpretation (Gk: 'is becoming it's OWN explanation')" (2 Pet. 1:20)
 
4.   "The words that I speak unto you, they ARE SPIRIT, and they are life" (John 6:63)
 
5.   "In the mouth of TWO OR THREE WITNESSES shall every word be established" (2 Cor. 13:1 & Rev.11:3)
 
6.   "...comparing (or: 'matching') SPIRITUAL things with SPIRITUAL" (1 Cor. 2:13)
 
7.   "Thou art righteous, O Lord, which ARE and WAS and SHALL BE" (Rev. 16:5, also Rev. 4:8 & 11:17)

http://bible-truths.com/email14.htm#keys


I for one do not want to hear these words spoken of me!  Heb 5 : 11 Concerning this we have much to say which is hard to explain, since you have become dull in you spiritual hearing and sluggish even slothful in achieving spiritual insight.

Ray says in his response to an e-mail : Matt 13:20

Think a moment about what you have just said. I wish people would read my material and LEARN THE PRINCIPLES involved. Once you understand the principle, then all of the Scriptures will take care of themselves. It does no good whatsoever to say one believes in the Sovereignty of God, but to then find verse after verse after verse which he thinks contradicts God' Sovereignty.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2007, 07:28:46 AM »


Darren

You comment : But what is more important, is that he is the WAS, the IS and WHICH WILL BECOME.

I know of no place anywhere in the Scripture where it says that God will BECOME. 

God is TO COME does not mean He will Become.  God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

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TimothyVI

  • Guest
Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2007, 08:40:33 AM »

Darren, thank you for your answer. Your simplicity suddenly cleared up for me the question that I had about
God changing from the old testament to the new testament.
I guess it takes "simplistic" to finally crack through this thick skull.

If I see God as a taskmaster in the old testament, and only a loving God in the new testament,
It doesn't mean that He changed. He was both from the beginning. He chose to show us one side
of his being when it suited Him to do so, and was beneficial for our instruction.
Then show us more of His lovin nature after He got our attention.

I think that we may see even a third side of God when He chooses to come back and save the entire world.

Thank you all. I love what I am able to clarify through the help of each of you.

Tim
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2007, 09:04:38 AM »


Darren

You comment : But what is more important, is that he is the WAS, the IS and WHICH WILL BECOME.

I know of no place anywhere in the Scripture where it says that God will BECOME. 

God is TO COME does not mean He will Become.  God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)



Arcturus. I can see your point, but I think you will be able to see where I was heading with "become" from the following verse.

Rev 11:15
  • And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


This was the end-state, the final chapter and the God that "is to come" as you point out. I will agree, that I could have explained it a little better.

Thank you for pointing it out :)

Love to you,
Darren
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2007, 10:34:31 AM »

Darren

I must be blind!    ;D  I could not see that you were heading for Revelations 11: 15 but I did see your concluding comment that you arrived at : Who knows how the God who IS TO COME will differ from the those past? So does this mean that God changed or does it mean that God is in control and all is happening according to his will which was set from the beginning?

To answer your question; the God who IS to come will not differ from the God of yesterday, today or tomorrow. This does not mean that God is changed or that God in not in contorl of all that is happening according to His plan that will not be changed but will lead to all being saved who lived yesterday, who are alive today and who are preordained to live tomorrow. :)

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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iris

  • Guest
Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2007, 11:21:37 AM »

This has been a really good thread,

and has made things a lot clearer for me.

Thanks!!!  :)


Iris
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2007, 11:26:17 AM »

This has been a very interesting thread. First off I want to say that it is greatly appreciated that we can have differences of opinion and not degenerate into strife and contention. Thank you all. This shows a higher level of spiritual maturity than what has sometimes transpired in the past. It appears we are remembering that we are all at different levels of understanding and all have unique vantage points, no two people can stand in the  same exact place at the same exact time so no two people will perceive everything in the same exact manner.

My perception of the OT has completely changed from just a history of physical Israel as they journeyed with Jehovah to the Promised Land. I now see the OT as primarily the spiritual future of the elect as they bring all of humanity to God with Jesus (Jehovah) ruling with a rod of iron. Remember that the Spirit of Christ along with His elect are the Lake of Fire, as physical Israel destroyed the flesh of it's (Jehovah's) enemies, spiritual Israel (the elect) will destroy the carnality of the unbelievers, idol worshippers, etc. in the Lake of Fire.

How can it be called murder for God to take the life of someone? He gave it in the first place and promises to return it in a more perfect and immortal state in the future, this is where faith comes in.

If I were to take my brother's troublesome old car while he was away and trade it in for a a brand new car paying the difference myself would that be considered theft?

When discussing whether the Lord changes, as some spoke of earlier in this thread what appears to be changing is just another step in the plan and purpose of God's original unchanging plan. Let me use another example;

I buy an old house with some scrubby old trees and overgrown landscaping, my plan is to remodel this house so I begin to rip out old floor coverings knock down some walls and tear off the old dilapitated shingles and sub roofing. To the casual observer I am destroying the house, it looks as if it is being demolished.

Then I bring in a bulldozer and backhoe and start taking out the scrub trees and scraping the lot of all the overgrowth until the lot is clear and graded smoothly. To this same casual observer it appears that I was not satisfied to just demolish the house but apparently I must destroy trees and plants to get my jollies as well.

I begin bringing new sheathing for the roof and new shingles to finish it off as well as drywall and ceramic tiles working tirelessly to get this house not only restored but better than it ever was. To our friend the casual observer it is clear, I must have changed my mind and am not destroying the house but in fact I am going to rebuild it now. Did I really change my mind or was the casual observer unaware or misunderstanding my plan from the very start?

The next day new trees, plants and sod are put in, did I have a change of heart? After taking the land back to bare earth I then put in new trees and plants? Can't I make up my mind?

I hope these examples were of some help.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe  

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TRUTHSEEKER

  • Guest
Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2007, 11:26:50 AM »

I must say that I have learned quite a bit from reading everyone's responses. Especially, Dwight's.  I have not seen the comparison between how God used natural Israel and the holy land as being the physical preceeding the spiritual; and the spiritual being how Christ dwells in our hearts like God dwelling over Israel of old driving out our carnality as Israel drove out the inhabitants of the promise land.  That is a remarkable comparison.  I can see it now.  Truly God has never changed.  Exactly as he planned in the beginning what will happen so it will happen.  I must commend everyone on an excellent post.  Probably one of the best post I've participated in as of yet.  Be blessed all.

Truthseeker
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John

  • Guest
Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2007, 12:39:33 PM »

WOW! What a difference a nights rest can make. I can see it now. Praise God!

Thank God for muddy water.  If it were not for seeing through the glass darkly, I wouldn't be enjoying this new level of vision this morning. I sure do appreciate everyone's replies.

What a GREAT subject Sorin, I hope you found some clarity on this too.


Peace,
John
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Pax Vobiscum

  • Guest
Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2007, 06:29:01 PM »

You know those "magic pictures" that were so popular years back?  The  ones where you supposedly stared "through" them to see the underlying picture?  I never could see them either, so here goes....

I must say I love most of the posts on this thread and am impressed by the timbre of the discussion.

Here's my understanding of the prevailing thoughts on this one. 

1)  God is unchanging and has an unchanging divine plan.

* I am with you on this one *

2)  God has seen fit to exercise his "right" to snuff out "innocent" life -- but it's His life to do as HE will.

* I'm still holding on with anthropomorphic breath *

3)  God orders and causes a whole lot of smiting in the OT.

* I am starting to slip away *

4) Jesus (God?) comes along in the new milennium and says, "I got some new rules to live by.  No more smiting.  It's all about the Spirit now"

* I'm a goner *

OK.  Joking aside.  If we put this in terms of strategy and tactics, where strategy is the plan and the tactic is the manifestation of that plan, then I am hearing that only God's tactics changed -- His strategy being the divine plan.  That's a change, nonetheless.

If we use a parental model, I certainly understand how parents change tactics while the plan remains -- but it is still a change.

Even the appearance of Jesus is a change (if we accept the full divinity/personhood of Jesus).  If He were fully God in the flesh, that certainly is a change.

There are examples after examples of the attributes of God changing (I will allow that the divine plan has not for argument's sake) in the Bible; so it is quite difficult to understand Malachi's "I change not" statement.

"I change not" and the "hic hoc hodie" statments in the NT do not specify -- they are quite general.  There is nothing that says "My divine plan is the same yesterday, today and to come" or "My plan changeth not." 

There are changes in relationships, circumstance, and attributes throughout our Bible.

Help me out, here.

Peace
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sj

  • Guest
Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2007, 07:18:14 PM »

If i could, I would like to offer an analogy...

There was a women preacher that use to come to a "campmeeting" that my church held... she would always get up and say "Isn't Jesus getting sweeter and sweet as the years go by?" The audience would clap and say amen in total agreement... then with a big smirk on her face she would yell "Gotcha! Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever!"

To be honest, this always kinda got on my nerves... because there seemed to be a huge difference in the way God dealt with humanity between the OT and the NT, even between the period where Christ walked on the earth and after He left... even between what is one of the main topics of this site "First the physical, then the spiritual" this seems to be a monumental change.

From the receiving end, it definitely seems like a change, doesn't it? I mean, there is no longer a temple or physical sacrifices... it seems like everything about how God wishes to relate to us has changed! But has God changed?

The way I have come to understand it is that this has been God's plan all along. He declares the end from the beginning and in order to do this He must also know all what lies between the end and beginning.

Like a master chess player, His purpose is victory... even though all of his moves may not seem to "match" or have the same motive... His over all plan remains the same. The changes in the way God interacts with man is not a change in reaction to mans actions, but rather is a planned action in order that man may react to God's shift. Kinda like a rutter on a ship, it directs mankind where we should be going according to God's plan.

No, He does not change... His plan remains the same, but that plan requires both the knowledge of good and evil, light and darkness, physical and spiritual... so that we can be created in His image.

Hope this helps...

God's Peace
Josh
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2007, 07:43:17 PM »

Hey Pax, you answered your own question?

Pax wrote:

OK.  Joking aside.  If we put this in terms of strategy and tactics, where strategy is the plan and the tactic is the manifestation of that plan, then I am hearing that only God's tactics changed -- His strategy being the divine plan.  That's a change, nonetheless.


If I understand you correctly, you assume that God's tactics cannot change. Why? Is it not beyond reason that God planned it this way, hence being the reason that the Scriptures speak with such distinction.

Although, your use of the word "Tactics" is correct based on our understanding of the word; I refuse to believe that God thought, "uh Oh, it's not working"  ;D  

We know that God did not change, he is who is was, is and will be, but are we so naive to believe that God's plan has only one phase? We know this is not true, hence there would not be the three recorded phases: Is, Was, and and Which is to come.

We must never simplify God to our level of understanding. I do not mean this disrespectfully, because our Father orchestrated everything from Super Nova's to the tiny atom which is the building block of all matter. He gave us joy, love, laughter, rainbows, flowers and everything else. He gives us understanding on his time, not ours.

My last point is that you say: "His strategy being the divine plan.  That's a change, nonetheless." I am not saying you believe this, because I take it you do not, so I will put this "changing strategy" in a different light.

God's Grand Master Plan for His Kingdom and Mankind

Phase 1. (The Physical)
  • Create the Heavens (including the universe as we know it),
    Populate it,
    Create man,
    Introduce the Law,
    One chosen people,
    Teach man the foolishness of his wisdom,
    Promise a Saviour

Phase 2. (The Spiritual)
  • Introduce the Saviour (Christ Jesus)
    Fulfill the law,
    Introduce Spiritual matters
    Call for a seperation from the world by his called
    Promise the saving of all mankind,
    Promise the becoming of the Kingdom of God in Heaven and Earth

Phase 3. (Which is to Come)
  • (Yet to be announced) :)

Pax, as you can see that this is a very simplistic plan, that has three distinct phases. The strategy (in our minds) may change, but the plan does not. God is not going back and rewriting the plan.

So is it fair to say that changing strategies means a changing plan? In our world, perhaps, in God's realm, NO!! :)

I hope this helps a little, comments welcome

Much Love to you and yours,
Darren
« Last Edit: January 06, 2007, 07:52:33 PM by YellowStone »
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #37 on: January 06, 2007, 08:59:41 PM »

Hi Pax,

I'm going to give a little analagy,
it's not going to be exact of course, but just see it helps.
I'm a mother, I have 3 children.
My main objective has always been to raise them to be mature adults.
When they were babies, I had to do everything for them, because they were helpless.
As they grew to be small children, I did not have to do the same as when they were babies,
but had to do a lot for them, to keep moving toward my objective.
As they became teenagers, I was not doing the same as when they were younger,
but again my objective was still the same as from the beginning.
Now that they are becoming mature adults,
the things I am doing for them now is nothing like the things I did as they were growing up.
I may have dealt with them differently along the way,
but not because I'm different, because they are.
But I can tell you I have not changed my objective or the ideas on how to reach it.
Of course I've had to deal with them in different ways over the years,
to make sure my objective was met.
I think you can see what I'm trying to say, my objective has been the same as from the beginning,
I have not changed that at all. 
As a human mother I made mistakes and learned along the way. 
But God is not like that, it has been said many times already,
He knows the end from the beginning, so He does not need to learn as He goes.
He does everything perfectly the first time and every time. 
So if you can see He has not changed who He is at all,
but the world is changing as times goes by,
and so He make have been doing things differently to accommodate the changes in the world.
But that is the way He has ordained it to be, from the beginning.

I hope this was of some help  :)

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

« Last Edit: January 06, 2007, 09:33:18 PM by Kat »
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gmik

  • Guest
Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2007, 10:33:04 PM »

TRUTHSEEKER,

I am OK with being confused with the Topic, but thanks  :)

Peace,
John

I am so glad you got a good nites sleep!! ;D
gena

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John

  • Guest
Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2007, 11:07:51 PM »

TRUTHSEEKER,

I am OK with being confused with the Topic, but thanks  :)

Peace,
John

I am so glad you got a good nites sleep!! ;D

 ;D Me too! While going over the replies to this subject with my wife this morning she made a comment on it that made it even more clearer. She said, 'His methods changed, not His purpose' , this works for me.

Peace,
John
gena


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