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kill or don't kill - does God change?
ericsteven:
Hi all,
My name is Eric, and I am new to the forum. I have enjoyed very much reading everyone's insights into this as well as other topics on the sight. I’d thought I’d perhaps share my thoughts and/or insights on this topic.
Sorin acknowledges in his post that he understands “that God is God and He does as He pleases, He can create life and He can kill it and there's nothing we can do about it anymore than there's something we can do about being born or not.” And most if not all who have responded agree. God’s sovereignty is not in doubt. The question is why would God seemingly contradict himself by saying “Thou shalt not kill” and then commanding the Israelites to kill their neighbors?
The verses that Sorin quoted in his initial post are from Duet 20.
First of all, when going to war against their enemies, the Lord commanded them:
Deut 20:10ff:
When you march up to attack a city, makes its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you.
Sounds pretty reasonable to me. It is only if the people do not accept the offer of peace and then go ahead and engage the Israelites in battle, that the Lord (verse 13) “delivers it into your hand, [putting] to the sword all the men in it.”
In regards to the belief that when the scripture says in Deut 20:14, “but the women….take unto thyself,” that God is commanding the Israelite men to rape them, we only need to look back a few chapters to Deuteronomy 12:10 to see how God command the Israelites to treat their female captives.
Deut 12.10ff:
When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.
There is nothing is this command that convinces me that what God was referring to in Deut 20:14 was rape or adultery.
Now the above commands only apply to the nations that God is not giving the Israelites as an inheritance. In regards to the cities of the nations that God is giving to the Israelites as an inheritance, God commands the Israelites to completely destroy them in Deut 20:17. We only need to look to the following verse to understand why God gave this command.
Deut 20:18
Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God.
and also Deut 18:14
The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord your God has not permitted you to do so.
So it’s clear, at least to me, that God has given them the Ten Commandments telling them what not to do. And in order to keep them from falling into sin, it is imperative to annihilate these people.
But of course, we know that they failed miserably with this command, which is why they were more often than not, it seems, looked at unfavoringly by the Lord.
I don’t know if this was helpful, but I would like acknowledge one more thing that Sorin said in one of his follow up posts. He said that he “is OK with being confused with the topic.” I, too, am perfectly Ok with being confused or being in the dark on certain things relating to how God works the way he does. I take comfort from one of Peter’s final moments with Jesus as recorded in the Book of John. After Jesus predicts the manner in which Peter would endure death to glorify God, Peter turns and sees John following them. Peter turns to Jesus and asks, “Lord, what about him?” To which Jesus responds, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” In other words, (and I pray that I’m not “putting words” in Jesus’s mouth) Don’t worry about how I choose to glorify myself in others, which I would think includes our enemies. Just focus on the work that I have called you to do. That will be enough.
God's blessings to everyone,
Eric
Kat:
Hi Eric,
I glad that you have decided to post :)
You have brought out some very interesting observations, from the scripture.
I think you are right, there is more to it than just looking at the law 'thy shall not kill,'
and then to say He changed, because He commanded Israel to wipe out the pagans of the land.
It is not that simple, God is not that easy to figure out.
As there have been many perspectives and explanations on this one topic, it just goes to show that the scripture have many layers of understanding and many applications.
I think all that has been said here is good in building up our knowledge and understanding.
But we will not have understanding of a lot of things, in this life.
There is a lot of mystery about God, that we just can not understand everything about Him,
but there is much being revealed also.
Rom 16:25 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages
1Co 2:7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.
Eph 1:9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
Eph 3:3 how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly.
Eph 3:4 When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ,
Eph 3:5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.
Eph 3:9 and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things,
Col 1:26 the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints.
Col 2:2 that their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and to all riches of the full assurance of the understanding, to the full knowledge of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
Col 4:3 At the same time, pray also for us, that God may open to us a door for the word, to declare the mystery of Christ, on account of which I am in prison--
Rev 10:7 but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.
I think you get my point, there is a lot of mystery to God,
we must pray for God to open our understanding :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
Pax Vobiscum:
Well, we've just about picked this bone clean.
Some recently applauded statements are noteworthy, however....
eggi writes: God changes NOT, this we know.
Actually, there are parts of the Bible which states that God does not change. But as we have seen there are plenty of examples where it appears that there have been changes. Hold this thought for a minute.
eggi writes: ... because if God changed His mind in the middle of history, He could not have been sovereign, because then something would have happened that he didn't foresee. So, this is not the real topic here, as we all know and understand the subject of sovereignity.
If God changes His mind, he could still retain sovereignty. Whether He would be perfect could be doubted, though. The perfection of God is a hot topic in theological circles. Early Jews did not believe that their God was perfect -- only more mighty than the others. Besides, not all believers share the thought that God knows the exact future. Deism vs Theism -- but that's another thread.
eggi writes: The real question, in my opinion, is: Did God give a perfect law in the law of Moses? There are many scriptures that say that the law of Moses is not perfect, Jesus Christ makes this clear:
If the Mosaic Law is not perfect and it came from God, does that not put the entire OT in doubt as to its perfection? What about the entire Bible? You're right that Jesus indicates that the Law is imperfect. Paul, as we know goes even further along this line. Now understand, I believe differently than most folks around here -- I believe that it is clear that the Bible is an anthology full of contradictions and paradoxes for a reason. But that's another thread, also.
eggi writes: Why did Jesus destroy it? Wasn't it perfect?
Did you not just quote Jesus saying that He did not come to destroy the Law? Then tell us that He did so anyway?
Why is it so difficult to buy into the idea that the Bible contains errors? This I do not understand. We assign so many attributes to the Scriptures that they themselves never claim. It is a thread I would enjoy, but do not feel would be very welcomed here, so I pretty much leave it alone. The problem is that when discussing delicate issues that could rock the foundations of someone's faith, this lone issue becomes a pebble in the shoe of the discussion: painfully endured, impossible to ignore.
The "kill" vs. "murder" explanation is interesting and I can buy some of it in a Clinton-esque way. But why is there not a similar argument about the rape/adultery? What is the justification for that? "God made me do it?" But if "God made me do it" is justification, why does the Bible villify Judas?
See how easily it gets circular?
I truly am not trying to step on toes. Eggi, my apologies if it seems I came out too strongly on your post. I only offer that there are alternative beliefs held by people who are, like all of us, trying to figure this thing out.
Peace
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: Pax Vobiscum on January 09, 2007, 01:19:01 PM ---
Well, we've just about picked this bone clean.
--- End quote ---
Hi Pax,
We are in total agreement on the above statement, there has been much scripture and many opinions posted in this thread. It is my feeling that we have taken it as far as it can go, for the time being anyway. If anyone has the need or desire to respond to anything posted here please do it one on one, privately.
This thread will be locked, at least for a while.
Thank you,
Joe
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