Free Will is an Oxymoron.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Chris R and Bobf

You both mention Rom 9 : 19 in your posts. 

From what I have learnt in LOF...

The word 'will' used in this Scripture is only used one other time in Act 27:43

The translation of this word is more correctly translated 'purpose'. Seen in this light we can ask the question who has resisted God's Will? The answer is everyone!

But who has resisted, thwarted or prevented God's purpose or plan? No one because there is no higher power than God.

As in the case of Pharaoh, God set Pharaoh against His Will and hardened his heart in order to fulfil His plan that no one can alter. God is in charge and He is in supreme control of His plans that will ultimately bring us all into His perfect Will for us all.

It has helped me to learn the difference between will and purpose or plan,  that is otherwise hidden and obscured in Rom 9 : 19 through the use of the word will instead of purpose or plan.

Peace be with you

Arcturus

[John]

Hello Chris R and Bobf

You both mention Rom 9 : 19 in your posts. 

From what I have learnt in LOF...

The word 'will' used in this Scripture is only used one other time in Act 27:43

The translation of this word is more correctly translated 'purpose'. Seen in this light we can ask the question who has resisted God's Will? The answer is everyone!

But who has resisted, thwarted or prevented God's purpose or plan? No one because there is no higher power than God.

As in the case of Pharaoh, God set Pharaoh against His Will and hardened his heart in order to fulfil His plan that no one can alter. God is in charge and He is in supreme control of His plans that will ultimately bring us all into His perfect Will for us all.

It has helped me to learn the difference between will and purpose or plan,  that is otherwise hidden and obscured in Rom 9 : 19 through the use of the word will instead of purpose or plan.

Peace be with you

Arcturus

Arcturus,

Going by what you just mentioned, correct me if Im wrong but; is it reasonable to think that all of us are against Gods perfect will to carry out His purpose?

Peace,
John

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello John

All have sinned! That means we have all been in opposition and have resisited  Gods Will. We start out in carnality that is deep seated hatred for God. Then, in God's perfect plan and timing, He through His goodness changes us through repentence either through force of revelation as in Paul on His way to Damascus, or through trials and tribulations that bring us to contriteness of spirit and humbleness of heart. Either way, it is a gift of God that changes any one from carnal to spiritual because this is done of and by His Spirit alone. He draggs us to His Son and His Son is the author and finisher of our faith.

Hope this helps a little.

Peace be to you

Arcturus

[gmik]

Gosh, these were great responses...slowly the dawn breaks....especially Romans 9-11.

That is pretty clear! ; Thanks to all.  I have some study & meditating to do along with some repentance.  Who am I to question Gods' plan when I don't really understand it.

I do rejoice that God has put it in me to want w/ all my heart to know Him and live for Him.
Lord forgive me when I think I could do it any better

love,
gena

[JB]

Sorin,
I was wondering if you or any of the other members had ever run across this definition of free will:
Free will is the ability to choose any at all of the moral options offered in a given situation.
Just curious
JB

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello JB
WELCOME on your first post!

JB, the Dictionaries were changed to incorporate a Pagan meaning to the word Hell in the 16th Century to accomodate the Catholic Doctrines of Eternal Hell in order to help facilitate manipulation, which is witch craft, over the masses.

Jesus Christ did not posses free will or any such "ability" to choose any moral options offered in a given situation. He did not want to go to the Cross. His Father made Him go for it was the plan of the Father from before the foundations of the world.

John 5 : 19 ....Verily verily, Isay unto you, The Son CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF, but what He sees the Father do; for what things so ever He does, these also does the Son likewise.

From LOF Part B I quote : Do you know of one Scripture that contradicts this verse in John 5:19? If you don't then you must admit that Jesus could not do anything by a supposed "free will" which is said to have the ability to act independently of God.

Free will is the ability to act independently of God.

Who has such an ability? No one. Who would like to believe that they have such an ability. EVERYONE ....until they come to understanding and belief in God and His Word.  Only God's Spirit can make that happen! The worlds Theologies are as sand that are uncertain and deceptive at best and mis-leading heresy more realisitically speaking. Often the Dictionaries will report what the Theologians say as in the case of Hell so to the case of Free Will. Either our authority is the Spirit and Word of God which leads to common sense or it is what the world says, which leads to confusion.

At one time the world was flat! ........according to the worlds authorities!

Peace be to you

Arcturus

[Dennis Vogel]

TO THE FORUM: (from Ray)

The answer your questions regarding why God holds accountable and judges those who merely do what they are inclined to do, is found in Rom. 9:

"For the children being not yet born, neither have done ANY good OR evil, that the purpose of God according to election [divine selection, divine chosen] might stand, not of works, but of him that calls; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there UNRIGHTEOUSNESS WITH GOD?  God forbid... So then it is not of him that wills nor of him that runs, but OF GOD that shows mercy... Therefore has He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will be hardens" (Rom. 9:11-18).

And so here is where your discussion revolves.  Yes, it is so, that God chooses whom He will have mercy on and whom He will harden.  It is God Himself Who not only chooses whom He will, but it is also God Himself Who BRINGS ABOUT the condition of the two parties in question (a vessel of honor versus a vessel of dishonor--one upon whom mercy is bestowed, and the other upon whom hardness is bestowed).  And so, as this IS the way things are, does this not make God Himself UNRIGHTEOUS?  And Paul also emphatically answers his own question it "GOD FORBID!"

But Paul realizes that his readers will find fault with this line of teaching and reasoning, and so Paul presents the question that naturally comes to our minds when we first hear these strange teachings:  "You will say then unto me [or unto Forum members] WHY DOES HE [GOD] YET FIND FAULT? For [because] who has [EVER] resisted His will [purpose, plan, or intentions]?"

Yes, since God is Sovereign and no one can go against His foreknowledge of WHAT MUST BE, why then does God find fault with those who are merely doing what they with their evil and carnal minds MUST DO?

Okay, here is Paul's answer: 

"Nay but, O man, WHO ARE YOU that replies against God? Shall the thing formed [the man doing merely what he was designed to do] say to Him that formed it [God the Potter] WHY have you made me thus [this way?]" (Rom. 9:19-20).

We as God's "Pots" have no right to ask God WHY He does what He does. HE IS GOD!!

But, for those who have ears to hear and eyes to see, God, nonetheless, does tell us WHY.

"What if God will to show His wrath, and to make his power known, endures with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He has BEFORE prepared unto glory."

God is going to show how GOOD the good are by contrasting them with how BAD the bad are. And God has this right, since He is the Potter, and we are merely the clay.  It is GOOD that we all LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS (Isa. 26:9).  One group (the chosen elect) just learn it earlier than do the vessels of dishonor.  They will not be left out: 

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN [vessels of dishonour], especially [now] of those that believe [the vessels of honour]" (I Tim. 4:10).

But remember, we also were like the vessels of dishonour fitted for wrath, in "times past":

"Among whom also WE ALL had our conversation in times past in the lusts of the flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh [vessels of dishonour] and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others" (Eph. 2:3).

We are ALL "marred in the Potter's hand" sometime in our lives, and must be refashioned after the likeness of His Son. So God is no respecter of persons, He merely has a schedule for which vessels get saved first.  It is good that we learn righteousness by the evils that God imposes upon us, even if we are "NOT WILLING" that He should operate in this way (Rom. 8:20).

God be with you all,

Ray

[Deborah-Leigh]

Dear Ray and Dennis

....not of works but of Him that calls... and....God Himself Who BRINGS ABOUT the condition

This reveals to a deeper level our dependence on God. It brings into light what it means to have reverential fear of God....

Thank you for sharing what you see and know

Peace and gratitude to you

Arcturus

[Sorin]

Hi Dennis,

This helps my understanding quite a bit, thanks for posting it, and thank Ray [for me] for taking the time to write it.

Take care,
Sorin 

[John]

WOW,

This tread has been a GREAT learning experience. This is how I see it now. God holding us accountable for our actions that He brought about is for our benefit. It is the way He chooses to do it and THATS THAT! Is He wrong in doing it this way? GOD FORBID, and NO.  We each have our on set (every pot is different) of accountable actions, by which we are being molded and formed DAILY. Why? To KNOW GOD. By the action of contrast or cause and effect, we are made to know Him. Even, our outward man against the inward man and vise versa.  He hardens whom He will...when He will...as often as He will...to bring about His PERFECT will. He shows mercy in the same respect, and on the individual level as often as He desires to harden me, He will, as often as He desires to bestow mercy on me He will, to form me into the pot He desires me to be.

Peace,
John

[gmik]

John, that was very clear.  Thanks.
gena

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Kittyhawk

....and that would be a broken horse......and obedient overcomer!

Peace to you!

[Brett]

Great insight by Ray's response! I get another step to understand more than ever! Thanks Ray for his time for us and thanks Dennis for to bring his note for us! And thank you posts for those who effort to help us understand. And more, thank God.

Brett

[iris]

Hi Ray and Dennis,

Thank you for taking the time to write this and sharing it with us.

I understand better now.

Thank you!!!


Iris

[Deborah-Leigh]

Training a horse is a good analogy. We too need training to run our race to the finish.We too need to learn how to keep our eyes on Christ and to stay focused and not be distracted by looking either to the left or the right of us but running the race to the end like a well trained thourough bred!

Heb 12 : 1 Therefore then since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses who have borne testimony to the truth, let us strip off and throw aside every encumbrance, unnecessary weight and that sin which so readily, deftly and cleverly clings to and entangles us, and let us run with patient endurance and steady and active persistence the appointed course of the race that is set before us.

Arcturus