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[hillsbororiver]

I believe the Chapter of Psalm 149 undelines what some of us were saying in Sorin's topic "kill or don't kill - Does God Change?" Not wanting to hijack the thread I thought we could have some discussion on what this chapter might be saying to us.

Psalm 149

 1Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints.

 2Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: let the children of Zion be joyful in their King.

 3Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.

 4For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation.

 5Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.

 6Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand;

 7To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;

 8To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;

 9To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

Any and all comments will be greatly appreciated.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

Maybe I was being too vague in what I thought was an interesting subject, as I have mentioned in previous posts, for decades I believed the OT was primarliy a history of physical Israel with some prophetic references to the (physical) birth (and ministry, sacrifice, triumph) of Jesus and "end time" scenarios.

Now I am seeing the OT in an entirely different "light" (I pray), it appears that the Old Testament scriptures more readily apply to the present (each generation) life of a called, chosen, believer and what the future holds for the overcomers, those of us who "endure to the end."

Don't these verses from the 149th Psalm speak of a future time?

This "destruction" so often spoken of in the OT, could the bigger message be that this "destruction" is actually a renovation? That the old inferior carnal flesh is going to be refined, remade, (Lake of Fire) into a new perfect spirit? A Son/Daughter of God?

The intense ferocity that is on the surface of "smite, destroy, kill" verses may have a deeper spiritual meaning   
for us, that this extreme (in our minds) manner in dealing with enemies is illustrating how profoundly mind bending the White Throne Judgement and subsequent journey through the LOF will be on those whose names are not in the Book Of Life.

Could it be that some of the suppostions/opinions on these verses are the victims of Strong Delusion? That for those with "eyes to see" and who were given the gift of understanding that they would see this for what it may very well be? This is a bit of a new understanding for me and I find it extremely fascinating, I have been amazed at how relevent the "old Prophets" are in my day to day life and how much buried treasure there is to mine there (as with all scripture).

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[eggi]

This "destruction" so often spoken of in the OT, could the bigger message be that this "destruction" is actually a renovation? That the old inferior carnal flesh is going to be refined, remade, (Lake of Fire) into a new perfect spirit? A Son/Daughter of God?

I think you are right, Joe. The future punishment and judgment discussed here will have a redeeming effect, it will be for GOOD.
I believe this is talking about a renovation, in fact the very regeneration mentioned here:

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Mat 19:28 KJV)

I used to see it as a history book too, therefore I thought it was all passed. Turns out, it gets deeper and deeper.

[Sorin]

Hi Joe,

No, you weren't too vague. I actually typed up a reply but chose not to post it in the end in order to not offend anybody.

Take care,
Sorin

[gmik]

I had trouble with this psalm for years.  I thought that never would I ever be happy to be smiting my enemies like that.  So I figured it was David and he rejoices after a good battle.  I would just move on to psalms 150.  much easier.

I too thought OT was history of the jewish nation and only needed at that level.  I actually never read from it..   NOW, I love getting the fresh take on it.  Joe & Eirik I thought very thought provoking posts.  Sorin, PM your post to Joe!

My take?? I love the renovation idea. I don't have time right this moment to search & dig for pearls-but ps 149 is on my to-do list!!
love,
gena

[hillsbororiver]

As always thanks for the responses.

Gena, I am definitely seeing this (OT destruction verses) as a renovation project by our Lord with His elect purging the old carnal nature of those who are unconverted, this is a type/shadow of the Lake of Fire.

Check this out;

Isa 19:22  And the LORD shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the LORD, and he shall be entreated of them, and shall heal them.

Smite then heal, destroy then rebuild, kill then raise up, all part of His plan of creation, bringing His Sons and Daughters to His Spiritual Kingdom.

Isn't this death and destruction going on within the chosen even now? Is there not a bloody war going on between our carnal nature and His Spirit?

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[gmik]

yes, definetly a bloody war going on!

You see the renovation clearly since that is what you do!

I love the smite then heal....we are being smitten in this life and the healing for the world will come in the next!!

love,
gena

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Gena,

Yes it probably helps quite a bit. All through scripture there are references to building, solid foundations, etc.

Do you think there is a deeper spiritual meaning behind the fact that Jesus' earthly trade was carpentry? Carpenters not only build new things but tear away old rotted structurally unsound wood, replacing it with new, strong and structurally sound material.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

This "destruction" so often spoken of in the OT, could the bigger message be that this "destruction" is actually a renovation? That the old inferior carnal flesh is going to be refined, remade, (Lake of Fire) into a new perfect spirit? A Son/Daughter of God?

I think you are right, Joe. The future punishment and judgment discussed here will have a redeeming effect, it will be for GOOD.
I believe this is talking about a renovation, in fact the very regeneration mentioned here:

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Mat 19:28 KJV)

I used to see it as a history book too, therefore I thought it was all passed. Turns out, it gets deeper and deeper.

Hi Eirik,

Thank you for the addition of the very relevent and appropriate scripture.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[TimothyVI]

I don't know if this was one of David's psalms or not. It was definitely written by someone
who thought that he was one of God's people and considered it an honor to, for the sake of God,  have judgement and vengeance on anyone that did not follow God.

God proved many times that He did not need man to intervene for Him in the judgement or vengeance department. He was perfectly capable of taking care of things himself.
God wiped out entire cities in a few minutes, and nearly wiped out the entire population of the world in a flood, without anyone
elses  help. So why did He decide to use people to kill people after telling them not to murder.

I will not second guess God's methods but I will say that it was this kind of writing in the scriptures that
encouraged and condoned medeival Christians to happily slaughter thousands and thousands of people simply for not believing in Christ.
Never mind that Jesus did not tell them to do anything like that. Never mind that Jesus said to love your enemies. God knew 4000 years ago that this was how man would respond because it was written in the old testament that somehow He condoned it, and that He actually took pleasure in man killing on His behalf.

I praise God that, under grace, I feel no need to take vengeance on any other human regardless of their beliefs.
When Jesus returns to judge, then it would be an indescribably incredible honor to be chosen to judge with Him.

Well Joe, you did say any and all comments. I hope that I haven't offended or shocked anyone.

Tim

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Timothy,

Your comments are not shocking or offensive, these are some of the very thoughts I had when I thought I knew better than God or that my plan was better than His. 

Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

I think some of us are looking at these verses in a strictly humanistic way and not the spiritual destruction/restoration represented by the judgement of His elect in this life and then the Lake of Fire in the next age.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe


 

[ciy]

I have thought that all of the Psalms are directed at us personally.  Anytime it speaks of the evil man who is doing so well it is talking about our carnal self who is having his way with us until the day comes when the meek (spiritualy man) inhabits the earth (our being)
These are some verses from Psalm 37 that are an example.

7Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man  who  bringeth wicked devices to pass.

   8Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.

   9For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

   10For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

   11But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

   12The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth.

To me it is a comfort to know that the wicked man that is propering in his way is not some unholy person down the street that is doing so well financially or whatever, but it is me.  I am that wicked man that is propering in MY way.  When that great day comes that wicked man will be no more and then I will be as Jesus is in this world.  I will be propering in His way.

CIY