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[eggi]

I haven't yet commented on this thread (anyway I can't remember commenting on it), but I've been reading it with great interest. God changes NOT, this we know. He has never changed His mind about anything, because if God changed His mind in the middle of history, He could not have been sovereign, because then something would have happened that he didn't foresee. So, this is not the real topic here, as we all know and understand the subject of sovereignity.

The real question, in my opinion, is: Did God give a perfect law in the law of Moses? There are many scriptures that say that the law of Moses is not perfect, Jesus Christ makes this clear:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Mat 5:17-20 KJV)

The law of Moses was good for its cause:

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. (Gal 3:24 KJV)

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; (Rom 3:19-21 KJV)

Paul is saying that now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, and that it's witnessed by the law and the prophets. Indeed "all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition" (1Co 10:11 KJV). Now does this mean that the law of Moses was perfect? It did witness to the righteousness of God, didn't it?

It's far from perfect:

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (Rom 2:28-29 KJV)

The things of the law of Moses weren't even the real thing! Jesus Christ destroyed this law:

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; (Eph 2:15 KJV)

Why did Jesus destroy it? Wasn't it perfect?

Yes, it was perfect ACCORDING to God's PLAN. It was, however, like Joe has pointed out, the REALITY of the work going on. In order to know sin, we must pass through the law. Why? Because the law is not GOOD, it's only GOOD for a cause. Or, following Joe's analogy, it's not GOOD to tear down a house, unless you want to build a new one. The tearing down of the house isn't GOOD either.

The law of Moses was the schoolmaster and a shadow of good things to come. When you have used it, then you don't need it anymore. God even admits that the statutes in the law of Moses weren't good:

Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live; (Eze 20:25 KJV)

Behold thou art a Jew and restest in the law and makest your boast of God and knowest his will and approvest the things that are more excellent being instructed out of the law; and art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. (Rom 2:17-20 KJV)

For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. (Hebrews 10:1 KJV)


Therefore, God in His wisdom, has done it this way, and there is no other way to do it, because there has to be a contrast!

[Deborah-Leigh]

AMEN!

[rocky]

The law is Holy and spiritual.  The problem is man's carnal mind and the law of sin and death within man's members that gets activated when it tries to obey the law. 

Rom 7:12  Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Rom 7:14  For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.



Holy:

G40
ἅγιος
hagios
hag'-ee-os
From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.

Just:

G1342
δίκαιος
dikaios
dik'-ah-yos
From G1349; equitable (in character or act); by implication innocent, holy (absolutely or relatively): - just, meet, right (-eous).


Good:
G18
ἀγαθός
agathos
ag-ath-os'
A primary word; “good” (in any sense, often as noun): - benefit, good (-s, things), well. Compare G2570.

Spiritual

G4152
πνευματικός
pneumatikos
phyoo-mat-ik-os'
From G4151; non-carnal, that is, (humanly) ethereal (as opposed to gross), or (daemoniacally) a spirit (concretely), or (divinely) supernatural, regenerate, religious: - spiritual. Compare G5591.


Is this law talked of here, different than the law of Moses??

[YellowStone]

AMEN!

Erik, that was an inspiring post and I happily second Arcturus  in saying AMEN!! 

Love to my family in Christ,
Darren

[Kat]

I found this in Ray email's.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1908.0.html ------------

 Murder?
« on: September 17, 2006, 08:14:15 AM » 

Dear Ray,

Why did God command Israel to murder in the OT despite the commandment "Thou Shall Not Kill"? Didnt Jesus say, "love your enemies"?

Thanks for everything, God has truly blessed me through your site. Hope to hear from you soon God bless.

Joed


Dear Joed:
You have it completely backwards:  God commanded Israel to "kill" their enemies, however, the seventh commandment is "thou shalt not MURDER." The same holds for the New Tesament commandment (Matt. 5:21). The translators didn't quite get that one right.  God used his physical nation of Israel to Judge the heathens in the land of Canaan, where as in the future God will use his Spiritual Nation of Israel to Judge the whole word system of Babylon the Great.
God be with you,
Ray
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[ericsteven]

Hi all,

My name is Eric, and I am new to the forum.  I have enjoyed very much reading everyone's insights into this as well as other topics on the sight.  I’d thought I’d perhaps share my thoughts and/or insights on this topic.

Sorin acknowledges in his post that he understands “that God is God and He does as He pleases, He can create life and He can kill it and there's nothing we can do about it anymore than there's something we can do about being born or not.”  And most if not all who have responded agree.  God’s sovereignty is not in doubt.  The question is why would God seemingly contradict himself by saying “Thou shalt not kill” and then commanding the Israelites to kill their neighbors?

The verses that Sorin quoted in his initial post are from Duet 20.

First of all, when going to war against their enemies, the Lord commanded them:

Deut 20:10ff:

When you march up to attack a city, makes its people an offer of peace.  11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 

Sounds pretty reasonable to me.  It is only if the people do not accept the offer of peace and then go ahead and engage the Israelites in battle, that the Lord (verse 13) “delivers it into your hand, [putting] to the sword all the men in it.”

In regards to the belief that when the scripture says in Deut 20:14, “but the women….take unto thyself,” that God is commanding the Israelite men to rape them, we only need to look back a few chapters to Deuteronomy 12:10 to see how God command the Israelites to treat their female captives.

 Deut 12.10ff:

When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.

There is nothing is this command that convinces me that what God was referring to in Deut 20:14 was rape or adultery. 

Now the above commands only apply to the nations that God is not giving the Israelites as an inheritance.  In regards to the cities of the nations that God is giving to the Israelites as an inheritance, God commands the Israelites to completely destroy them in Deut 20:17.  We only need to look to the following verse to understand why God gave this command.

Deut 20:18

Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God.

and also Deut 18:14

The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination.  But as for you, the Lord your God has not permitted you to do so.

So it’s clear, at least to me, that God has given them the Ten Commandments telling them what not to do.  And in order to keep them from falling into sin, it is imperative to annihilate these people.

But of course, we know that they failed miserably with this command, which is why they were more often than not, it seems, looked at unfavoringly by the Lord.

I don’t know if this was helpful, but I would like acknowledge one more thing that Sorin said in one of his follow up posts.  He said that he “is OK with being confused with the topic.”  I, too, am perfectly Ok with being confused or being in the dark on certain things relating to how God works the way he does.  I take comfort from one of Peter’s final moments with Jesus as recorded in the Book of John.  After Jesus predicts the manner in which Peter would endure death to glorify God, Peter turns and sees John following them.  Peter turns to Jesus and asks, “Lord, what about him?”  To which Jesus responds, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?  You must follow me.”  In other words, (and I pray that I’m not “putting words” in Jesus’s mouth) Don’t worry about how I choose to glorify myself in others, which I would think includes our enemies.  Just focus on the work that I have called you to do.  That will be enough. 

God's blessings to everyone,

Eric

[Kat]

Hi Eric,

I glad that you have decided to post 
You have brought out some very interesting observations, from the scripture.
I think you are right, there is more to it than just looking at the law 'thy shall not kill,'
and then to say He changed, because He commanded Israel to wipe out the pagans of the land.
It is not that simple, God is not that easy to figure out.
As there have been many perspectives and explanations on this one topic, it just goes to show that the scripture have many layers of understanding and many applications.
I think all that has been said here is good in building up our knowledge and understanding.
But we will not have understanding of a lot of things, in this life. 
There is a lot of mystery about God, that we just can not understand everything about Him,
but there is much being revealed also.

Rom 16:25  Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages

1Co 2:7  But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.

Eph 1:9  making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ

Eph 3:3  how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly.
Eph 3:4  When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ,
Eph 3:5  which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.
Eph 3:9  and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things,

Col 1:26  the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints.

Col 2:2  that their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and to all riches of the full assurance of the understanding, to the full knowledge of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

Col 4:3  At the same time, pray also for us, that God may open to us a door for the word, to declare the mystery of Christ, on account of which I am in prison--

Rev 10:7  but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.

I think you get my point, there is a lot of mystery to God,
we must pray for God to open our understanding 

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Pax Vobiscum]

Well, we've just about picked this bone clean. 

Some recently applauded statements are noteworthy, however....

eggi writes: God changes NOT, this we know.

Actually, there are parts of the Bible which states that God does not change.  But as we have seen there are plenty of examples where it appears that there have been changes.  Hold this thought for a minute.

eggi writes: ... because if God changed His mind in the middle of history, He could not have been sovereign, because then something would have happened that he didn't foresee. So, this is not the real topic here, as we all know and understand the subject of sovereignity.

If God changes His mind, he could still retain sovereignty.  Whether He would be perfect could be doubted, though.  The perfection of God is a hot topic in theological circles.  Early Jews did not believe that their God was perfect -- only more mighty than the others.  Besides, not all believers share the thought that God knows the exact future.  Deism vs Theism -- but that's another thread.

eggi writes: The real question, in my opinion, is: Did God give a perfect law in the law of Moses? There are many scriptures that say that the law of Moses is not perfect, Jesus Christ makes this clear:

If the Mosaic Law is not perfect and it came from God, does that not put the entire OT in doubt as to its perfection?  What about the entire Bible?  You're right that Jesus indicates that the Law is imperfect.  Paul, as we know goes even further along this line.  Now understand, I believe differently than most folks around here --  I believe that it is clear that the Bible is an anthology full of contradictions and paradoxes for a reason.  But that's another thread, also.


eggi writes: Why did Jesus destroy it? Wasn't it perfect?

Did you not just quote Jesus saying that He did not come to destroy the Law?  Then tell us that He did so anyway?

Why is it so difficult to buy into the idea that the Bible contains errors?  This I do not understand.  We assign so many attributes to the Scriptures that they themselves never claim.  It is a thread I would enjoy, but do not feel would be very welcomed here, so I pretty much leave it alone.  The problem is that when discussing delicate issues that could rock the foundations of someone's faith, this lone issue becomes a pebble in the shoe of the discussion: painfully endured, impossible to ignore.

The "kill" vs. "murder" explanation is interesting and I can buy some of it in a Clinton-esque way.  But why is there not a similar argument about the rape/adultery?  What is the justification for that?  "God made me do it?"  But if "God made me do it" is justification, why does the Bible villify Judas?

See how easily it gets circular?

I truly am not trying to step on toes.  Eggi, my apologies if it seems I came out too strongly on your post. I only offer that there are alternative beliefs held by people who are, like all of us, trying to figure this thing out.

Peace

[hillsbororiver]

Well, we've just about picked this bone clean. 

Hi Pax,

We are in total agreement on the above statement, there has been much scripture and many opinions posted in this thread. It is my feeling that we have taken it as far as it can go, for the time being anyway. If anyone has the need or desire to respond to anything posted here please do it one on one, privately.

This thread will be locked, at least for a while.

Thank you,

Joe