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Author Topic: Please pass the SALT!  (Read 8685 times)

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rrammfcitktturjsp

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Re: Please pass the SALT!
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2007, 05:12:21 PM »

Arcturus,

  This was a creative post.  Jesus never seemed to mind that the hypocrites had high blood pressure.  In fact things turned out really good no matter what they did.   Object lesson for us??  I agree with you in us being to stand up for beliefs no matter what.  Thanks for you post.  This has been a blessing. 

  Sincerely,



  Anne C. McGuire
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Please pass the SALT!
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2007, 05:23:16 PM »

You are part of the blessing too Anne :)....and our Blessing is of Chirst who reveals His ways and truths. Without responce, I too would not have the joy of revelations I recieve in abundance!.....

Peace and joy to you

Arcturus :)
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John

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Re: Please pass the SALT!
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2007, 06:02:35 PM »

Some people shouldn't eat salt at all, like those who have high blood pressure.

Q: What's the significance of that?
A: Maybe some people should stay away from us! LOL  :D  (Sorry, I couldn't resist!) :)

Sandy

That makes since but then there are those with high blood pressure (like me) who eat things they probably shouldn't, but those things taste soo good (hanging round here) its hard to resist!  ;)

Peace,
John
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rrammfcitktturjsp

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Re: Please pass the SALT!
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2007, 09:53:28 PM »

John,

  I too can relate.  hee hee hee.  There's so much to get done and is it getting done?  Nope becuase everyone is posting onine and getting things done.  I love this.

  Sincerely,



  Anne C. McGuire
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Please pass the SALT!
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2007, 10:46:00 AM »



Not everyone however is so easy to accept diversity and differences. Many will throw away good will because of disagreement leaving in a huff of high blood pressure!  Should we be tolerant of evil or wickedness or blindness? I say no. We should be able to say what we think despite the high blood pressure or weak eyes of the party that would have us go into agreement with them at all costs and threaten to leave us if we do not agree with their errors.



A very astute observation Arcturus. I believe that we are being salted with His Fire at times right here in the Forum. It is a given that we are not all going to have 100% agreement in all things at all times, so what do we do? How do we handle this?

Our response to things we don't see or agree with is a direct gage of spiritual maturity, when someone has a legitimate question or does not comprehend something most of us understand to be true requires a different tone and approach than someone who comes in teaching or making bold proclaimations, both of these scenarios can prove to be frustrating but the test is how we ourselves respond, in the spirit of charity and brotherly love, or in a prideful self righteous spirit?

This has been a very interesting informative thread!

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe 
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Please pass the SALT!
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2007, 12:06:21 PM »

Thank you Joe

You wrote : but the test is how we ourselves respond, in the spirit of charity and brotherly love, or in a prideful self righteous spirit?

Do you not think that some of the responses that Ray presents results in his detractors belief that he is being prideful and self righteous? If you put the shoe on the other foot, and imagine getting an answer to you personally, like the ones Ray gives to some of his detractors.....without spiritual maturity.....is it not easy to become hostile and offended by his answers? Even the Disciples of Christ were worried enough to advise Jesus that He had offended the Pharisees. Personally I would be most upset if Ray sent me a scathing sarcastic responce! I would not enjoy it no matter how spiritually mature I think I am :o..or am not ;D

So the observation here is this. What is my MOTIVE?  Do I seek agreement or a following or am I able to at any time...any time...face rejection? Can I follow Christ alone? Am I  sure of myr facts enough to keep going alone if necessary? Or is the test....have I got a following or have I lost the crowd the guage I use to see if I am in rightstanding with God?

If I am  inspired of God to speak the truth it should be with edification, exhortation and comfort and not only comfort. How can anyone speak with comfort to a Pharisee! Jesus spoke with edification and sarcasm to Nicodemas who came to Him under the shadow of darkness and even then Jesus used ridicule to irk Nicodemus to think!  What might have sounded offensive actually became conducive to change in Nicodemus. Was it not Nicodemus who was the among the first Jews to convert to Christ and was he not the one who arranged to bring the mixture of myrrh and aloes, weighing about a hundred pounds to the preparation for the burial of Jesus? Can this not happen to us too in this sense that we say something that may sound offensive to a person who then disappears from our radar screen and is changed without us knowing it! Jesus had already died and Nicodemas then appeared in the scriptures with the Disciple Joseph of Arimathea. John 19 : 38

This is my point Joe. Sometimes the soft answer that turns away wrath also will turn away our reward if we want to have friendship with man at the cost of loosing fellowship with Christ.

I just see so much luke warmness and resistance to being fearless because like mindedness with our brethren is so precious we do not want to loose it. I do not think I will loose your friendship Joe and I value being able to be candid without risk but what about others. Do I or should I temper my responces to accomodate or am I able and comfortable to receive alternative, challenging and what could to the untrained spirit seem darn right provocative, self righteous sounding views. I have to admit...not always. Jesus as our role model and Ray in this generation certainly is ready willing and able to answer back with forthright edification and exhortation to those who seek comfortable agreement who turn away perhaps to change later outside the radar screen of Ray. Like Nicodemas, how many go away from being offended to later perhaps change because of the stinging sarcasm that unveils the truth and shows them up as followers of the lie?

John 6 : 60 When His disciples heard this, many of them said, This is a hard and difficult and strange saying, an offensive and unbearable message. (I can just imagine that some of Ray’s detractors think like this towards what Ray writes in response to them!) ….61…But Jesus said to them, Is this a stumbling block and an offence to you? Does this UPSET and DISPLEASE and SHOCK and SCANDALIZE you?….64 But still some of you fail to believe and trust and have faith. …65…This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him, unless he is enabled to do so by the Father.  66 (]Here is the clincher…)After this, many of His disciples drew back and returned to their old associations and no longer accompanied Him. (Jesus did not care for agreement or a following. He was quite willing to go it alone to the cross with or without human accompaniments.) 67. Jesus said to the Twelve, Will you also go away?

This is what I am reflecting on Joe…..MOTIVES of the heart and attachments of the flesh. My questions to myself….am I willing to follow Christ alone? It certainly is much easier with fellowship and family and companionship and agreement of the brethren but surely not at the expense of the spirit of truth. :o

This is what I am reflecting on and Ray’s responses to his detractors is a catalyst to my present pondering searching desire to understand Jesus and to follow more in His ways.

How do you see this?

Peace to you

Arcturus :)



« Last Edit: January 14, 2007, 12:09:10 PM by Arcturus »
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Please pass the SALT!
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2007, 01:39:43 PM »

Thank you Joe

You wrote : but the test is how we ourselves respond, in the spirit of charity and brotherly love, or in a prideful self righteous spirit?

(All of my responses are in purple)

Hi Arcturus, This is where discernment comes in, I think you will see in Ray's responses a different tone when a babe asks a question that underlines their (as yet) spiritual immaturity verses the "know it alls" who refuse to consider or be receptive to new light and instead seek to teach or make definitive proclaimations of things they know little to nothing about.

Do you not think that some of the responses that Ray presents results in his detractors belief that he is being prideful and self righteous?

Absolutely! This next comparison is an example that some detractors will run with, how about Moses and Pharoah, what was Pharoah's reaction to the words Moses spoke to him on behalf of the Lord? I can just hear some folks now; "How can you comapare Moses & Ray??!!? Easy, they are both men, men who are sharing and teaching things that are led by His Spirit.

If you put the shoe on the other foot, and imagine getting an answer to you personally, like the ones Ray gives to some of his detractors.....without spiritual maturity.....is it not easy to become hostile and offended by his answers? Even the Disciples of Christ were worried enough to advise Jesus that He had offended the Pharisees. Personally I would be most upset if Ray sent me a scathing sarcastic responce! I would not enjoy it no matter how spiritually mature I think I am :o..or am not ;D

Actually, I have been on the receiving end of a couple of Ray's "no holds barred" answers,  ;) we have exchanged many private e-mails where I ask him questions, in retrospect some pretty stupid assumptions were included in my question(s) and Ray (as he does) got straight to the point. One advantage I may have is that I have attended a couple Conferences and he speaks much the same as he writes but I have never seen him respond with anger, when you see the body language, see the smile, hear the voice intonations you tend to get a fuller picture than what appears in the written word.

Ray's sarcasm is is something that does not offend me personally, this is the way my family (even Aunts, Uncles, Cousins) communicated with each other my entire life, it is also the way I communicate with friends and coworkers, if you only read a transcript of some of the things we have said to each other it could seem rather rude and callous, but if you saw and heard  the exchanges your perception would be totally different.
 

So the observation here is this. What is my MOTIVE?  Do I seek agreement or a following or am I able to at any time...any time...face rejection? Can I follow Christ alone? Am I  sure of myr facts enough to keep going alone if necessary? Or is the test....have I got a following or have I lost the crowd the guage I use to see if I am in rightstanding with God?

That is a great question, if we continually ask that when we are responding to others we disagree with it will keep us humble enough to seek His will, patience, easier said than done.

If I am  inspired of God to speak the truth it should be with edification, exhortation and comfort and not only comfort. How can anyone speak with comfort to a Pharisee! Jesus spoke with edification and sarcasm to Nicodemas who came to Him under the shadow of darkness and even then Jesus used ridicule to irk Nicodemus to think!  What might have sounded offensive actually became conducive to change in Nicodemus. Was it not Nicodemus who was the among the first Jews to convert to Christ and was he not the one who arranged to bring the mixture of myrrh and aloes, weighing about a hundred pounds to the preparation for the burial of Jesus? Can this not happen to us too in this sense that we say something that may sound offensive to a person who then disappears from our radar screen and is changed without us knowing it! Jesus had already died and Nicodemas then appeared in the scriptures with the Disciple Joseph of Arimathea. John 19 : 38

Good example, often we are like teenagers who think they know more than they do, sometimes they must be grabbed by the shoulders and shaken to get a point across to them, sometimes it will sink in and other times it will give them inspiration to rebel even more.

This is my point Joe. Sometimes the soft answer that turns away wrath also will turn away our reward if we want to have friendship with man at the cost of loosing fellowship with Christ.

The Word itself is a two edged sword, very sharp and it cuts both ways (foreswing and backswing) using it as the primary tool of admonishment should get the attention of anyone truly seeking understanding. Using our own words, thoughts and reasoning may only fuel the fire of strife and division.

I just see so much luke warmness and resistance to being fearless because like mindedness with our brethren is so precious we do not want to loose it. I do not think I will loose your friendship Joe and I value being able to be candid without risk but what about others. Do I or should I temper my responces to accomodate or am I able and comfortable to receive alternative, challenging and what could to the untrained spirit seem darn right provocative, self righteous sounding views. I have to admit...not always. Jesus as our role model and Ray in this generation certainly is ready willing and able to answer back with forthright edification and exhortation to those who seek comfortable agreement who turn away perhaps to change later outside the radar screen of Ray. Like Nicodemas, how many go away from being offended to later perhaps change because of the stinging sarcasm that unveils the truth and shows them up as followers of the lie?

We are admonished to privately council a Brother or Sister first, then take a second or third of the Brethren to voice any concern, this should be done as often as possible rather than a public admonition before the other avenues have been explored. I do not think there is a one size fits all answer, each scenario requires its own prayerful meditation best done seeking the council of the Head and body of Christ. 

John 6 : 60 When His disciples heard this, many of them said, This is a hard and difficult and strange saying, an offensive and unbearable message. (I can just imagine that some of Ray’s detractors think like this towards what Ray writes in response to them!) ….61…But Jesus said to them, Is this a stumbling block and an offence to you? Does this UPSET and DISPLEASE and SHOCK and SCANDALIZE you?….64 But still some of you fail to believe and trust and have faith. …65…This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him, unless he is enabled to do so by the Father.  66 (]Here is the clincher…)After this, many of His disciples drew back and returned to their old associations and no longer accompanied Him. (Jesus did not care for agreement or a following. He was quite willing to go it alone to the cross with or without human accompaniments.) 67. Jesus said to the Twelve, Will you also go away?

This is what I am reflecting on Joe…..MOTIVES of the heart and attachments of the flesh. My questions to myself….am I willing to follow Christ alone? It certainly is much easier with fellowship and family and companionship and agreement of the brethren but surely not at the expense of the spirit of truth. :o

It is all about the heart, the motives that inspire us to action. I agree we should not trade or compromise Truth for fellowship or popularity but we pray for understanding in any trial or lesson He places before us. I really try to keep kneejerk reactions (not always successful) out of my posts I would rather be silent for a while than to be a blowhard hothead who also happens to be wrong.  :D

This is what I am reflecting on and Ray’s responses to his detractors is a catalyst to my present pondering searching desire to understand Jesus and to follow more in His ways.

This is our present journey my dear Sister.

How do you see this?

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe





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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Please pass the SALT!
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2007, 02:28:20 PM »

Hello Joe

Of VITAL SIGNIFICANCE in your response is this : I have never seen him respond with anger, when you see the body language, see the smile, hear the voice intonations you tend to get a fuller picture than what appears in the written word.

THAT is what I was looking for! Never….no ….NEVER respond with anger! Got it! This is an insight that is sorely missing in the e-mail responses that do not reveal the smile, intonation and language of the heart that is peace, patience, wisdom, long suffering and self control! It is one thing to be righteously angry as when Jesus took a whip and over turned tables in Gods House of Prayer and quite another thing to loose control become impatient unwise, given to loosing control and being hostile. That is not the way or the truth or the life and now I can imagine how Jesus talked to Nicodemus, with kindness and intonations that Ray exhibits as you have pointed out. It is like punnishing a child with anger which is a NO NO or with wisdom with the view to correction not anihalation!

You say : Using our own words, thoughts and reasoning may only fuel the fire of strife and division.

That is a very good pointer.2 Tim 3 : 16 Every Scripture is God-breathed, given by His inspiration and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience and for training in righteousness in holy living in conformity to God’s will in thought ,purpose, and action.

Now that requires practise,practise practise! ;D  :D

I appreciate the thoughtfulness and sobriety of your responces Joe.

Your Sister

Arcturus :)
« Last Edit: January 14, 2007, 02:30:04 PM by Arcturus »
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Please pass the SALT!
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2007, 06:53:18 PM »

Hello Joe

Of VITAL SIGNIFICANCE in your response is this : I have never seen him respond with anger, when you see the body language, see the smile, hear the voice intonations you tend to get a fuller picture than what appears in the written word.

THAT is what I was looking for! Never….no ….NEVER respond with anger! Got it! This is an insight that is sorely missing in the e-mail responses that do not reveal the smile, intonation and language of the heart that is peace, patience, wisdom, long suffering and self control! It is one thing to be righteously angry as when Jesus took a whip and over turned tables in Gods House of Prayer and quite another thing to loose control become impatient unwise, given to loosing control and being hostile. That is not the way or the truth or the life and now I can imagine how Jesus talked to Nicodemus, with kindness and intonations that Ray exhibits as you have pointed out. It is like punnishing a child with anger which is a NO NO or with wisdom with the view to correction not anihalation!

You say : Using our own words, thoughts and reasoning may only fuel the fire of strife and division.

That is a very good pointer.2 Tim 3 : 16 Every Scripture is God-breathed, given by His inspiration and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience and for training in righteousness in holy living in conformity to God’s will in thought ,purpose, and action.

Now that requires practise,practise practise! ;D  :D

I appreciate the thoughtfulness and sobriety of your responces Joe.

Your Sister

Arcturus :)


Thank you for the very kind words Arcturus,

There are times I am sure that everyone goes through, periods where they (we) do not especially like being told their beliefs are wrong or that they yet have eyes to see in certain areas. Although we should address fallacy we should err on the side of charity unless we can be sure our discernment is from Him rather than ourselves. A babe should be handled with the utmost care while the "teacher" of errors should be confronted with scripture, a two edged sword. All of this should be motivated by love though, as we are admonished to even love our enemies not just those we find ourselves in agreement with.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe 
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hebrewroots98

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Re: Please pass the SALT!
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2007, 08:43:29 PM »

excellent, thank you all for your wisdom :D
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iris

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Re: Please pass the SALT!
« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2007, 09:06:47 PM »

This has been an interesting thread.

It has helped me to see things clearer.

Thank you very much!

 :)  :)


Iris
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Please pass the SALT!
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2007, 01:56:48 AM »

Acknowledged with thanks Joe!

Peace and the continued council and love of His Spirit be with you

Arcturus
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Please pass the SALT!
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2007, 02:22:44 PM »

Hello everyone who helped pass the salt! A big thank you to all!

The subject of salt and its applications was very much on my mind prior to posting the thread.  I am grateful for your insights and participation that were a catalyst to me receiving deeper insights and revelation into the mysteries of Gods word.

I have re-read the thread again and this is what has come up for me in conclusion.

God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow. We are being made into His image and likeness. Therefore as He makes us become stable, unchanging, steady in the fruit of His Spirit of Love, Joy, Peace, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self-control, so too will we be able to remain steady in the face of the raging storms of emotions that can be unleashed against us even if we are in a little boat crossing over to get somewhere else and minding our own business when a storm hits.

What comes up is the lesson  to not  become too easily integrated with the storm or give access to emotions of anxiety that come from external circumstances whose aim is to drive in fear, pain or confusion. Being anxious for nothing is the result of being more in the image of Christ and less in the image of volatile fickle man.

In Africa we have a unique creature called the chameleon. Apart from its ability to swivel its eyes and look backwards and forwards at the same time, this little creature can change the colour of its skin.  :o  I have learnt from this thread that Jesus was not a chameleon. Can you believe some of the things God is teaching me…Dahhh!   ;D Any one of you bright sparks in the USA and Europe, Asia or Australia could have told me that hey?  ::)  Well Okay but for those who do not know what a chameleon is, this small creature  is able to change the color of its skin to suit its environment so as to be camouflaged and blend in to protect it from being eaten by predators.

Yet we read in the scripture

John 8 : 59 So they took up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus, by mixing with the crowd, concealed Himself and went out of the temple.

Did Jesus camouflage Himself or vanish? No! He mixed with the crowd, blended in and made His Exit.   8) He was  able to camouflage Himself in order to leave the scene. Jesus was also able to appear and disappear very effectively. This scripture really invites deeper reflection

Luke 24 : 31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

They lost sight of him literally when their wyes were open spiritually.  Is that the same for us here in the Forum as we discern each other from the abundance of our mouths showing what is in our hearts? I think yes. It matters little to me what our literal physical parameters are. It matters much more to me what our hearts speak. This in turn does  reveal the spiritual condition as being in close conformity with the image of Christ or in distant conformity to His likeness.
 

The chameleon can not disappear!  Swivel eyes…Yes…change colour to conceal itself…Yes but vanish from sight….NO!…only Jesus could do that and in His image and likeness we should know when to vanish from sight! Like when to keep quiet!  ….when anger, violence and intent to do harm raises itself up against us as stones ready to be thrown at us, we should leave and not fight, or you can see a stoning  coming, then turn and leave the area. Disengage and remove oneself, make an exit and do not stay in the area. Common sense hey? Dust off your shoes and leave, duck!….vanish, split or remove yourself from the communication.  Have no part with commotion, debates, fighting or siding for or against a brother or sister. Doing so might not puff up one but it could deflate and dis-encourage an other.  This may sound like chameleon talk looking backwards and forwards at the same time but seriously; here is what I have found out.  We are going to become made more into the image of Christ and as a result of this we will become more constant as God is constant.  We will  learn how to appear and disappear....to be invisible. The Spirit is invisible, its presence felt and seen. This is decidedly not the same as going with the flow or joining the crowd. It is the contrary! I believe our training ground is in our conversations because our words will either justify or condemn us.

I have seen that Jesus was a master of camouflage and appearing and disappearing.  When he was expected he didn’t show up ref the death of Lazarus, when he was not expected He did show up walking on the water! We can do the same in this sea of words between one other as we practise in the spiritual mastery of Christ and as we grow into the conformity of His image and learn to love one another as the consequence of His work in each one of us here.

Peace to all

Arcturus :)



 
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