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Please pass the SALT!
Deborah-Leigh:
Thank you Joe
You wrote : but the test is how we ourselves respond, in the spirit of charity and brotherly love, or in a prideful self righteous spirit?
Do you not think that some of the responses that Ray presents results in his detractors belief that he is being prideful and self righteous? If you put the shoe on the other foot, and imagine getting an answer to you personally, like the ones Ray gives to some of his detractors.....without spiritual maturity.....is it not easy to become hostile and offended by his answers? Even the Disciples of Christ were worried enough to advise Jesus that He had offended the Pharisees. Personally I would be most upset if Ray sent me a scathing sarcastic responce! I would not enjoy it no matter how spiritually mature I think I am :o..or am not ;D
So the observation here is this. What is my MOTIVE? Do I seek agreement or a following or am I able to at any time...any time...face rejection? Can I follow Christ alone? Am I sure of myr facts enough to keep going alone if necessary? Or is the test....have I got a following or have I lost the crowd the guage I use to see if I am in rightstanding with God?
If I am inspired of God to speak the truth it should be with edification, exhortation and comfort and not only comfort. How can anyone speak with comfort to a Pharisee! Jesus spoke with edification and sarcasm to Nicodemas who came to Him under the shadow of darkness and even then Jesus used ridicule to irk Nicodemus to think! What might have sounded offensive actually became conducive to change in Nicodemus. Was it not Nicodemus who was the among the first Jews to convert to Christ and was he not the one who arranged to bring the mixture of myrrh and aloes, weighing about a hundred pounds to the preparation for the burial of Jesus? Can this not happen to us too in this sense that we say something that may sound offensive to a person who then disappears from our radar screen and is changed without us knowing it! Jesus had already died and Nicodemas then appeared in the scriptures with the Disciple Joseph of Arimathea. John 19 : 38
This is my point Joe. Sometimes the soft answer that turns away wrath also will turn away our reward if we want to have friendship with man at the cost of loosing fellowship with Christ.
I just see so much luke warmness and resistance to being fearless because like mindedness with our brethren is so precious we do not want to loose it. I do not think I will loose your friendship Joe and I value being able to be candid without risk but what about others. Do I or should I temper my responces to accomodate or am I able and comfortable to receive alternative, challenging and what could to the untrained spirit seem darn right provocative, self righteous sounding views. I have to admit...not always. Jesus as our role model and Ray in this generation certainly is ready willing and able to answer back with forthright edification and exhortation to those who seek comfortable agreement who turn away perhaps to change later outside the radar screen of Ray. Like Nicodemas, how many go away from being offended to later perhaps change because of the stinging sarcasm that unveils the truth and shows them up as followers of the lie?
John 6 : 60 When His disciples heard this, many of them said, This is a hard and difficult and strange saying, an offensive and unbearable message. (I can just imagine that some of Ray’s detractors think like this towards what Ray writes in response to them!) ….61…But Jesus said to them, Is this a stumbling block and an offence to you? Does this UPSET and DISPLEASE and SHOCK and SCANDALIZE you?….64 But still some of you fail to believe and trust and have faith. …65…This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him, unless he is enabled to do so by the Father. 66 (]Here is the clincher…)After this, many of His disciples drew back and returned to their old associations and no longer accompanied Him. (Jesus did not care for agreement or a following. He was quite willing to go it alone to the cross with or without human accompaniments.) 67. Jesus said to the Twelve, Will you also go away?
This is what I am reflecting on Joe…..MOTIVES of the heart and attachments of the flesh. My questions to myself….am I willing to follow Christ alone? It certainly is much easier with fellowship and family and companionship and agreement of the brethren but surely not at the expense of the spirit of truth. :o
This is what I am reflecting on and Ray’s responses to his detractors is a catalyst to my present pondering searching desire to understand Jesus and to follow more in His ways.
How do you see this?
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: Arcturus on January 14, 2007, 12:06:21 PM ---Thank you Joe
You wrote : but the test is how we ourselves respond, in the spirit of charity and brotherly love, or in a prideful self righteous spirit?
(All of my responses are in purple)
Hi Arcturus, This is where discernment comes in, I think you will see in Ray's responses a different tone when a babe asks a question that underlines their (as yet) spiritual immaturity verses the "know it alls" who refuse to consider or be receptive to new light and instead seek to teach or make definitive proclaimations of things they know little to nothing about.
Do you not think that some of the responses that Ray presents results in his detractors belief that he is being prideful and self righteous?
Absolutely! This next comparison is an example that some detractors will run with, how about Moses and Pharoah, what was Pharoah's reaction to the words Moses spoke to him on behalf of the Lord? I can just hear some folks now; "How can you comapare Moses & Ray??!!? Easy, they are both men, men who are sharing and teaching things that are led by His Spirit.
If you put the shoe on the other foot, and imagine getting an answer to you personally, like the ones Ray gives to some of his detractors.....without spiritual maturity.....is it not easy to become hostile and offended by his answers? Even the Disciples of Christ were worried enough to advise Jesus that He had offended the Pharisees. Personally I would be most upset if Ray sent me a scathing sarcastic responce! I would not enjoy it no matter how spiritually mature I think I am :o..or am not ;D
Actually, I have been on the receiving end of a couple of Ray's "no holds barred" answers, ;) we have exchanged many private e-mails where I ask him questions, in retrospect some pretty stupid assumptions were included in my question(s) and Ray (as he does) got straight to the point. One advantage I may have is that I have attended a couple Conferences and he speaks much the same as he writes but I have never seen him respond with anger, when you see the body language, see the smile, hear the voice intonations you tend to get a fuller picture than what appears in the written word.
Ray's sarcasm is is something that does not offend me personally, this is the way my family (even Aunts, Uncles, Cousins) communicated with each other my entire life, it is also the way I communicate with friends and coworkers, if you only read a transcript of some of the things we have said to each other it could seem rather rude and callous, but if you saw and heard the exchanges your perception would be totally different.
So the observation here is this. What is my MOTIVE? Do I seek agreement or a following or am I able to at any time...any time...face rejection? Can I follow Christ alone? Am I sure of myr facts enough to keep going alone if necessary? Or is the test....have I got a following or have I lost the crowd the guage I use to see if I am in rightstanding with God?
That is a great question, if we continually ask that when we are responding to others we disagree with it will keep us humble enough to seek His will, patience, easier said than done.
If I am inspired of God to speak the truth it should be with edification, exhortation and comfort and not only comfort. How can anyone speak with comfort to a Pharisee! Jesus spoke with edification and sarcasm to Nicodemas who came to Him under the shadow of darkness and even then Jesus used ridicule to irk Nicodemus to think! What might have sounded offensive actually became conducive to change in Nicodemus. Was it not Nicodemus who was the among the first Jews to convert to Christ and was he not the one who arranged to bring the mixture of myrrh and aloes, weighing about a hundred pounds to the preparation for the burial of Jesus? Can this not happen to us too in this sense that we say something that may sound offensive to a person who then disappears from our radar screen and is changed without us knowing it! Jesus had already died and Nicodemas then appeared in the scriptures with the Disciple Joseph of Arimathea. John 19 : 38
Good example, often we are like teenagers who think they know more than they do, sometimes they must be grabbed by the shoulders and shaken to get a point across to them, sometimes it will sink in and other times it will give them inspiration to rebel even more.
This is my point Joe. Sometimes the soft answer that turns away wrath also will turn away our reward if we want to have friendship with man at the cost of loosing fellowship with Christ.
The Word itself is a two edged sword, very sharp and it cuts both ways (foreswing and backswing) using it as the primary tool of admonishment should get the attention of anyone truly seeking understanding. Using our own words, thoughts and reasoning may only fuel the fire of strife and division.
I just see so much luke warmness and resistance to being fearless because like mindedness with our brethren is so precious we do not want to loose it. I do not think I will loose your friendship Joe and I value being able to be candid without risk but what about others. Do I or should I temper my responces to accomodate or am I able and comfortable to receive alternative, challenging and what could to the untrained spirit seem darn right provocative, self righteous sounding views. I have to admit...not always. Jesus as our role model and Ray in this generation certainly is ready willing and able to answer back with forthright edification and exhortation to those who seek comfortable agreement who turn away perhaps to change later outside the radar screen of Ray. Like Nicodemas, how many go away from being offended to later perhaps change because of the stinging sarcasm that unveils the truth and shows them up as followers of the lie?
We are admonished to privately council a Brother or Sister first, then take a second or third of the Brethren to voice any concern, this should be done as often as possible rather than a public admonition before the other avenues have been explored. I do not think there is a one size fits all answer, each scenario requires its own prayerful meditation best done seeking the council of the Head and body of Christ.
John 6 : 60 When His disciples heard this, many of them said, This is a hard and difficult and strange saying, an offensive and unbearable message. (I can just imagine that some of Ray’s detractors think like this towards what Ray writes in response to them!) ….61…But Jesus said to them, Is this a stumbling block and an offence to you? Does this UPSET and DISPLEASE and SHOCK and SCANDALIZE you?….64 But still some of you fail to believe and trust and have faith. …65…This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him, unless he is enabled to do so by the Father. 66 (]Here is the clincher…)After this, many of His disciples drew back and returned to their old associations and no longer accompanied Him. (Jesus did not care for agreement or a following. He was quite willing to go it alone to the cross with or without human accompaniments.) 67. Jesus said to the Twelve, Will you also go away?
This is what I am reflecting on Joe…..MOTIVES of the heart and attachments of the flesh. My questions to myself….am I willing to follow Christ alone? It certainly is much easier with fellowship and family and companionship and agreement of the brethren but surely not at the expense of the spirit of truth. :o
It is all about the heart, the motives that inspire us to action. I agree we should not trade or compromise Truth for fellowship or popularity but we pray for understanding in any trial or lesson He places before us. I really try to keep kneejerk reactions (not always successful) out of my posts I would rather be silent for a while than to be a blowhard hothead who also happens to be wrong. :D
This is what I am reflecting on and Ray’s responses to his detractors is a catalyst to my present pondering searching desire to understand Jesus and to follow more in His ways.
This is our present journey my dear Sister.
How do you see this?
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
--- End quote ---
Deborah-Leigh:
Hello Joe
Of VITAL SIGNIFICANCE in your response is this : I have never seen him respond with anger, when you see the body language, see the smile, hear the voice intonations you tend to get a fuller picture than what appears in the written word.
THAT is what I was looking for! Never….no ….NEVER respond with anger! Got it! This is an insight that is sorely missing in the e-mail responses that do not reveal the smile, intonation and language of the heart that is peace, patience, wisdom, long suffering and self control! It is one thing to be righteously angry as when Jesus took a whip and over turned tables in Gods House of Prayer and quite another thing to loose control become impatient unwise, given to loosing control and being hostile. That is not the way or the truth or the life and now I can imagine how Jesus talked to Nicodemus, with kindness and intonations that Ray exhibits as you have pointed out. It is like punnishing a child with anger which is a NO NO or with wisdom with the view to correction not anihalation!
You say : Using our own words, thoughts and reasoning may only fuel the fire of strife and division.
That is a very good pointer.2 Tim 3 : 16 Every Scripture is God-breathed, given by His inspiration and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience and for training in righteousness in holy living in conformity to God’s will in thought ,purpose, and action.
Now that requires practise,practise practise! ;D :D
I appreciate the thoughtfulness and sobriety of your responces Joe.
Your Sister
Arcturus :)
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: Arcturus on January 14, 2007, 02:28:20 PM ---Hello Joe
Of VITAL SIGNIFICANCE in your response is this : I have never seen him respond with anger, when you see the body language, see the smile, hear the voice intonations you tend to get a fuller picture than what appears in the written word.
THAT is what I was looking for! Never….no ….NEVER respond with anger! Got it! This is an insight that is sorely missing in the e-mail responses that do not reveal the smile, intonation and language of the heart that is peace, patience, wisdom, long suffering and self control! It is one thing to be righteously angry as when Jesus took a whip and over turned tables in Gods House of Prayer and quite another thing to loose control become impatient unwise, given to loosing control and being hostile. That is not the way or the truth or the life and now I can imagine how Jesus talked to Nicodemus, with kindness and intonations that Ray exhibits as you have pointed out. It is like punnishing a child with anger which is a NO NO or with wisdom with the view to correction not anihalation!
You say : Using our own words, thoughts and reasoning may only fuel the fire of strife and division.
That is a very good pointer.2 Tim 3 : 16 Every Scripture is God-breathed, given by His inspiration and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience and for training in righteousness in holy living in conformity to God’s will in thought ,purpose, and action.
Now that requires practise,practise practise! ;D :D
I appreciate the thoughtfulness and sobriety of your responces Joe.
Your Sister
Arcturus :)
--- End quote ---
Thank you for the very kind words Arcturus,
There are times I am sure that everyone goes through, periods where they (we) do not especially like being told their beliefs are wrong or that they yet have eyes to see in certain areas. Although we should address fallacy we should err on the side of charity unless we can be sure our discernment is from Him rather than ourselves. A babe should be handled with the utmost care while the "teacher" of errors should be confronted with scripture, a two edged sword. All of this should be motivated by love though, as we are admonished to even love our enemies not just those we find ourselves in agreement with.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
hebrewroots98:
excellent, thank you all for your wisdom :D
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