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Author Topic: Free Will is an Oxymoron.  (Read 13282 times)

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Sorin

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Free Will is an Oxymoron.
« on: January 11, 2007, 11:40:59 AM »

Ray does a great job of explaining how we don't have 'freedom of the will' and I agree, we can only choose from a number of possible alternatives, and we always end up choosing what God predetermined from the begining of our life that we will choose. I get that part, but what I don't get is, since our lives were predetermined/ pre destinated by God, and everything we do, even what Hitler did was unavoidable because we can not thwart God's plan and purpose, I don't get how we are still held accountable for our actions.

I mean sure if Hitler had free will he probably would not have done what he did. I understand the whole cause and effect thing, and that all our choices are caused, but since they are caused and can not be avoided by us, why are we still accountable for something we had no power over [i.e. stopping the cause from creating an effect].

That's what I don't understand. Sure Ray says we are 'sinning machines' we love to sin and I agree, but he leaves out the cause, we sinned because of the cause, if there were no cause, there would be no effect [sin] and since that cause I would assume comes from God [since he is working all things after the counsel of his own will] then God is absolutely responsible, but I don't see how we are accountable. Because we didn't have the 'freedom' to choose not to sin, or do a certain thing or not. And who can stay God's hand, right?

So yeah, help me out here,
Sorin

« Last Edit: January 11, 2007, 12:17:52 PM by Sorin »
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YellowStone

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Re: Free Will is an Oxymoron.
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2007, 11:58:11 AM »

Sorin,

We do not have "Free-Will" but do indeed have "Free-Choice"

However, we are only "Free" in the sense of the confines iimposed by God. We are free, to laugh, smile, cry, hate, work, swim, in fact free to feel any emotion. HOWEVER, this does not mean that we God cannot influence us because we are NOT free of the Will of God. Many may say that if this is true, and if we do have freedom of choice, then we should be able to choose to jump to the Moon, try and then cry foul because they cannot! :)

They missed it though, they chose to jump and they may have even tried; but the laws of physics (put in place by God and controlled by God) prevented them from reaching their Goal.

If they had "Free-Will" as many claim to have, then they would be free to "will" themselves to the moon and "bingo" they would be there.

Does this make sense? I always confused "Free-Will" with "Free-Choice"

Love,
Darren
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Sorin

  • Guest
Re: Free Will is an Oxymoron.
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2007, 12:08:00 PM »

Darren,

No, Darren, Ray goes through great lenghts to explain that while we make choices our choices are [always] caused. So, no we don't have 'free-choice' because if we did, we'd have free will. A 'free-choice' is an effect without a cause.

So, I'll rephrase my question, since all are choices are caused, how are we still held accountable for our actions?

Take care,
Sorin

« Last Edit: January 11, 2007, 12:16:37 PM by Sorin »
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Free Will is an Oxymoron.
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2007, 12:22:53 PM »

Hi Sorin,

The way I look at it is, we are accountable because we actually are the one doing it.
God may have caused all the circumstances, but He did not take controll of us and make us do it.
He has given us the means to carry out the physical actions on our own.
Not decide them on our own, but carry them out on our own.
So since we actually do them, we are held accountable, because the actions were done by us.
Does that help any?

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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YellowStone

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Re: Free Will is an Oxymoron.
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2007, 12:23:10 PM »

Sorin,

I will find the email from Ray that say's we can thinkl, feel, etc. That we are not brainless like trees :)

Darren
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Phazel

  • Guest
Re: Free Will is an Oxymoron.
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2007, 12:31:59 PM »

Hi Sorin,

The way I look at it is, we are accountable because we actually are the one doing it.
God may have caused all the circumstances, but He did not take controll of us and make us do it.
He has given us the means to carry out the physical actions on our own.
Not decide them on our own, but carry them out on our own.
So since we actually do them, we are held accountable, because the actions were done by us.
Does that help any?

mercy, peace, and love
Kat




Possibly our accountability applies only to the fact that we are individuals and are the ones needing to be fixed.

I've really been praying over this wanting to understand the truth. 

Lets take a computer program.   Lets say I write code and it is designed to give an error message for the purpose of learning how a good computer program should not operate.  I execute the program and it gives the error message as it was designed.  I am responsible for that error message, I do not hold the computer program responsible.  However, the computer program still needs fixed so that it will not give an error.   So I have to understand that I have to change (reconcile) the computer program.   I can be held responsible for the faulty computer program, I also am responsible for fixing it.  However, it still is the individual priogram that I have to change.

I think we take our carnal thinking and continue to relate our accountability to blame.  We are not to blame, but it is still us that needs fixed nevertheless.

I think I get it now, or at least till I think about it more and my head explodes once again.

The Lake of Fire FIXES the computer program.   :)


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YellowStone

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Re: Free Will is an Oxymoron.
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2007, 12:39:32 PM »

Sorin,

Here is the post between me and Ray about this very subject. :)

I wrote in response to Rays response (below):

Oh Ray, 
 
I do not only believe, but I ALSO KNOW that God is Sovereign and that man does NOT have a Free Will 
 
You actually answered my question (and to this I am VERY grateful)
 
You state: (Ray)
By taking away man's non-existent phantom "free will," we do not reduce him down to a CD, so it is just foolish to talk in such terms. CD don't "learn," or have "emotions," or "love," or "think," or "create," etc., etc., etc. Man is capable of all of these things, BUT HE DOESN'T HAVE A FREE WILL, and GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING THAT WILL HAPPEN AND MUST HAPPEN BEFORE IT HAPPENS.
Ray this is all I wanted to know. I am so glad that you say that we are more than CD's
 
That we can "learn," or have "emotions," or "love," or "think," or "create," etc., etc., because man is capable of all these things.
 
I do apologize for causing you any grief, but please know that I have wrestled for a very long time on this very subject and your words echo the very words given me by God, exactly!!!
 
You have made my day my dear brother. We are on the same page.
 
WOW!! I'm more than a CD, WhooHoo!! 
 
You have lifted such a huge weight off of my shoulders, thanks be to God.
 
Love,
Darren

Ray wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Darren:
I'm sorry, Darren, but your arguments are too superficial to even debate. By taking away man's non-existent phantom "free will," we do not reduce him down to a CD, so it is just foolish to talk in such terms. CD don't "learn," or have "emotions," or "love," or "think," or "create," etc., etc., etc. Man is capable of all of these things, BUT HE DOESN'T HAVE A FREE WILL, and GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING THAT WILL HAPPEN AND MUST HAPPEN BEFORE IT HAPPENS. And I have 120 pages of Scriptural explanations of this on my site: "The Myth of Free Will Exposed."  I know that you don't "approve" of God being Soverign, and you don't "approve" of man not having a free will, but that's just the way it is, and you will have to live with it.
God be with you,
Ray
PS  Darren, dominos do not have minds, and emotions, and creativity!!  Your analogies are foolish.     
 
[/i]
I hope this helps,

Love,
Darren
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Sorin

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Re: Free Will is an Oxymoron.
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2007, 01:28:42 PM »

kitty,

My question isn't whether or not we have free will, but rather since we don't make any free uncaused choices and everything we've ever done could not have been avoided
why are we still held accountable for our actions.

Phazel comes the closest to answering this, but still doesn't fully answer it for me. I mean sure, we carried out the act, but we had no choice but to carry out the act since our choices are caused, and therefore not free. That means we didn't freely choose to carry out a certain act, we just had no choice but to do it since we don't make free [uncaused] choices.

We are not at liberty to choose to not do something anymore than a window is at liberty to choose to not shatter after [the cause] a rock has been thrown through it.

Do you now understand what I'm asking here?

Take care,
Sorin

« Last Edit: January 11, 2007, 01:41:58 PM by Sorin »
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Phazel

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Re: Free Will is an Oxymoron.
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2007, 01:40:02 PM »

kitty,

My question isn't whether or not we have free will, but rather since we don't make any free uncaused choices and everything we've ever done could not have been avoided
why are we still held accountable for our actions.

Phazel comes the closest to answering this, but still doesn't fully answer it for me. I mean sure, we carried out the act, but we had no choice but to carry out the act since our choices are caused, and therefore not free. That means we didn't freely choose to carry out a certain act, we just had no choice but to do it since we don't make free [uncaused] choices.

Do you now understand what I'm asking here?

Take care,
Sorin



You may be questioning the word accountable in perspective to "punishment".

Regaurdless of that take a look at yourself (not saying this in a judgmental way)  you feel, you are aware, etc etc.

There is no doubting that we are aware, there is no doubting that we make choices.

However are you perfect?   I am not.


What can make you perfect? 

You also can take the perspective of bible translations.  It is well known that often a translation uses the closest word in that language. I could be wrong about that but I have read at times our english concepts often do not have an exact word to describe that in anothwer language.

That said.  We are only accountable in the perspective of needing to be made perfect.    Regaurdless of Gods responsibility he still has to do something to us to make us perfect.

Our individuality makes us accountable to be fixed by God.


It has taken me a long time to get this far, be patient.








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John

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Re: Free Will is an Oxymoron.
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2007, 02:08:54 PM »

I know that Ray writes the papers on Free Will and we have them to refer to, but here on the forum is where the rubber meets the road sort of, and I for one always need these types of posts and replies to refresh my extremely limited understanding of NO FREE WILL. Its like this for me...Oh, ok I get,...I got it....I understand it and see how it works now.....ooops I had it   ??? . I greatly appreciate everyone’s input for these kinds of topics.

Peace,
John
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Sorin

  • Guest
Re: Free Will is an Oxymoron.
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2007, 02:25:19 PM »

kitty,

My question isn't whether or not we have free will, but rather since we don't make any free uncaused choices and everything we've ever done could not have been avoided
why are we still held accountable for our actions.

Phazel comes the closest to answering this, but still doesn't fully answer it for me. I mean sure, we carried out the act, but we had no choice but to carry out the act since our choices are caused, and therefore not free. That means we didn't freely choose to carry out a certain act, we just had no choice but to do it since we don't make free [uncaused] choices.

Do you now understand what I'm asking here?

Take care,
Sorin



You may be questioning the word accountable in perspective to "punishment".

Regaurdless of that take a look at yourself (not saying this in a judgmental way)  you feel, you are aware, etc etc.

There is no doubting that we are aware, there is no doubting that we make choices.

However are you perfect?   I am not.


What can make you perfect? 

You also can take the perspective of bible translations.  It is well known that often a translation uses the closest word in that language. I could be wrong about that but I have read at times our english concepts often do not have an exact word to describe that in anothwer language.

That said.  We are only accountable in the perspective of needing to be made perfect.    Regaurdless of Gods responsibility he still has to do something to us to make us perfect.

Our individuality makes us accountable to be fixed by God.


It has taken me a long time to get this far, be patient.











Phazel,

Let's take a look at the meaning of the word:

accountable

adjective
liable to account for one's actions


In that case, I was caused to do it. Sure I made the choice, but was it free? A completely free uncaused choice? No.


Take care,
Sorin
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gmik

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Re: Free Will is an Oxymoron.
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2007, 02:35:17 PM »

Same for me John.  I am on the 2nd listening of Rays tape & of course I have read his paper on Free Will twice.   I get it.....I don't get it....I know it....I forget it....

I agree that the forum helps keep it in front of me...

Sorin, I agree that is a fuzzy area for me. If I really had no choice in what I "chose" and it was fore ordained for me to do it, then why should I be punished for it???  Yes, I agree that given the set of circumstances anyone couldve been a Hitler, but I don't see how that changes anything.

Clearly, w/o double-speak, I have no choice but to choose what was predestined for me to choose. So why does God hold me accountable????

Another question, God is no respector of persons right???  What does this exactly mean??  If God chose Hitler to be Hitler and Billy Graham to have a grand, life isn't that bing a respector of persons?

love,
gena
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sansmile

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Re: Free Will is an Oxymoron.
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2007, 03:20:22 PM »

Hi all,

Have been watching this thread and i agree it's a difficult area to fathom. How i started to understand it was, that God is chastening (teaching) us like children. He puts the choices in front of us and we choose (and He knows which one we will choose at any given stage). But as He teaches us and we grow, then we should KNOW what choice to make to be obedient. If knowing what God would want, and we still choose to be disobedient THEN we are accountable. God didn't test Abraham with the ultimate test (sacrificing his son) until Abraham had learnt a lot of lessons. His faith was strong enough to pass that trial.
We teach our children...we give them choices..as they grow they should KNOW what choice they should make to please us.
So by being in our word, listening to Him and learning from our trials, our faith and spirit grows, which then enables us to choose to obey His teachings and He knows we will!

Can u all see what i mean??
God Bless
Sandie
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Phazel

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Re: Free Will is an Oxymoron.
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2007, 03:38:25 PM »



Phazel,

Let's take a look at the meaning of the word:

accountable

adjective
liable to account for one's actions


In that case, I was caused to do it. Sure I made the choice, but was it free? A completely free uncaused choice? No.


Take care,
Sorin


Your combining two issues that essentially can be unrelated.   Being accountable does not need  a free uncaused choice.

Liable  " subject or susceptible: to be liable to heart disease." 


We are subject to Gods judgment.  That judgment is what will make us perfect.

It is hard to get past accountability and judgment as a matter of God perfecting us.

Rather we think of it as God punishing us for a free will choice.

simply put.   God designed us to do whast we do,  designed his plan so that our lives are influenced causing us to make the choices he planned for us to make.

Our awareness understands the good and bad in every choice we have ever made.  We will be accountable to God in order for him to perfect us.

My explaination does not change the fact that we have no free will, it merely attempts to say that if we are not accountable to God, then we will never be perfected.


We cannot be accountable to anyone else  because no one else has the power to perfect us.






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Kat

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Re: Free Will is an Oxymoron.
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2007, 04:10:12 PM »

Hi Gena,

Consider this verse.

Heb 2:7  You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor,
Heb 2:8  putting everything in subjection under His feet." Now in putting everything in subjection to Him, He left nothing outside His control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to Him.

He decided to way it this way, He is in control,  but He still hold us accountable for our actions.
You said,

Quote
Clearly, w/o double-speak, I have no choice but to choose what was predestined for me to choose. So why does God hold me accountable?

You say you understand that you have no choice, but yet you still think that God should not hold you accountable.
But you see if we were not held accountable, how could God correct us?
Do you see what I mean, we have to be held accountable so that God can chastize us, and then we can learn and grow and build character.
What would really be unfair, is if God corrected us when we were not accountable  :(
That is why God made it the way it is.
He decided it would be the way it is, so He could shape and mold us by correction.
And the only way it would be fair for Him to correct us, is if we are accountable.

As for God not being a respecter of person,
to me that means there is nothing we can do to impress Him.
He does not look on any of us with favor over another, because of who we are, because He made us who we are  :)

Hope this helps.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat


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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Free Will is an Oxymoron.
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2007, 07:04:03 PM »

We are all accountable but God is Responsible!

Separate the distinctions here....accountable and responsible.

Separate the words choice.... and ....will. They are NOT the same!

We have many choices. God knows which one we will pick because He knows us better than we know ourselves. God tells us to judge ourselves and to take the beam out of our own eyes. He tells us to follow Him. Do we? No!
Why not? Because we can’t. Do we know we can’t? No. What does it take until we realize that we can do nothing outside the Sovereignty or separate to God? Accountability brings us to realize our spiritual  condition. Do we want to know our spiritual condition? No. Why? Because our spirtual condition is weak and subject to vanity and for this we experience pain when we are shown wrong, we experience agony when we are shown up and embarassment is not a word we want to have come near to us. We like to look good and we do not enjoly looking bad. We love and cultivate and maicure a good self esteem! and a good self image. Is it fake. YES!

This is part of the plan and process bringing us few who are selected and chosen by God to come to the painful acceptance through much personal suffering and experiences of helpless hopeless loveless soul poverty,  that without Gods goodness we can not change? How do we change?  Simple. Painfully through chastisement and flogging and trials and tribulations. We do not want to change. The familiar is comfortable. We can only change if God changes us. Do we want God to do anything to change us. NO! Is God a respector of persons? NO. THANK GOD FOR THAT! .... Then after much suffering we learn obedience....DEGREE BY DEGREE.  How? We begin to think that we are not so great anymore. We begin to realize we have to lean upon someone greater than ourselves. We begin to get wise. Then we begin to question our own motives if we are very blessed and God so desires and chooses. Then we begin to see that our motives are selfish and carnal and valueless. Do we want to? NO. God draggs us. Then if God decides, we learn about His Spirit of Love Joy Peace Kindness Goodness Patience Gentleness Faithfulness and Long Suffering. Then we realise that accountability simply shows us what our spiritual condition is. Do we still enjoy carnality or do we rise up out of pain and suffering into the embrace of God? God is making us and He alone decides. Do we agree with this situation yet? No....Yes?

If I am resisting or trying to shake off or show restentment and bickering about my accountability then  I am accusing God of His ways not being MY ways and His thoughts not being MY thoughts. I would only do that if I hate Gods ways and Gods words and the carnal mind does just that. It HATES God. We are accountable means we have preferences that show if we enjoy evil or good, carnal or spiritual. Those preferences are not nothing. They are something. They are our indications of our spiritual weakness, failures and liability to temptation. We can not approach Christ unless we first accept our condition and then approach Him in order to lean on and depend on the Mercy Grace and Unmerited favour of God made available to us only via Christ our High Priest who understands what we experience because He has been through it all. If I do not like it this way, I can rebel and that will show my spiritual condition is immature, hard and void. If I see and accept the way of pain, taking up my cross, as being the only way to the Spirit of Christ, then I can go forward into the image of Christ being made within me by God. The condition I am in is the condition I AM in NOT the condition GOD is in. MY condition is NOT permanent. God will fix us all. We are in our spirtual condition now in this life and God has made the way out! Look at where you and I are! Look at what you and I bretheren have been shown already. You and I  are not  babes in the woods. Do we want to go back? Do we wish to return to milk?

You and I are acountable for what we know. To whom much is given much will be required. Do we go for or against this Princiiple of God? God will know all about it and we will be shown up in the end because all our works and words and motives will be revealed. God is responsible for that and He wont be mocked. If I like it, then it shows I am on the right course. If not, then it shows what will not be desireable  to see…. a wretched heart condition. No one wants that! ... yet either I am pliable to Gods ways or I am still heading for breaking up and being crushed into a humble and contrite spirit.  The Power of God is All Mighty. I should embrace God...and His Christ....yet only HE can create that in me. I can know what is being created by looking at what my choices show me about my spiritual condition!

Christ went to the cross. He did not want to. He went anyway. What does that show of the spiritual condition of Christ? What are my CHOICES showing about me? That is the accountability mirror. Will I throw it away,  question it or use it? God knows how mature I am. He knows how much fire of chastisement I still need to get into the image of His Son who died for me.

Accountability.....by my choices so I am known by God and will be revealed accordingly. So will all of us be salted with fire. God will correct, fix and amend errors wickedness and deciept in the end. Do I want to wait till then for the second death Lake of Fire?  Am I waiting?  Yes....No? Do I care to know who I am before God? Do I care to face my spiritual condition? ....Yes...No?.....Just some of my own thoughts! Just some...!

Peace be to you

Arcturus :)

« Last Edit: January 12, 2007, 01:40:30 AM by Arcturus »
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DWIGHT

  • Guest
Re: Free Will is an Oxymoron.
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2007, 10:06:09 PM »

To whom then will you liken Me, or shall I be equal? Says the Holy One… I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside Me… I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace and create evil: I the Lord do all these things… I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even My hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded… To whom will you like Me, and make Me equal, and compare Me, that we may be like?" (Isa. 40:25; 45:5, 7, 12; 46:5)

There are some things that are almost impossible to describe.  Ray said, we know that God is all knowing, but did He ever learn?  We don't know because the scripture doesn't say.  There are many things that the scriptures don't say that we must take by faith.  We cannot describe everything that we see even so we see it.  I think the posts that we have had describing accountability have been excellent, but just because we can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there.  Sometimes we just have to render the things that are Ceasar's to Ceasar and to God the things that are God's.

In His grace,

Dwight
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Brett

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Re: Free Will is an Oxymoron.
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2007, 02:51:41 AM »


Clearly, w/o double-speak, I have no choice but to choose what was predestined for me to choose. So why does God hold me accountable????

Hi gena,

Flesh understand things are not the same as spiritual things. I found quote scripture that seem fit of 'why' and Paul had answer for us:

Rom. 11:33-36 NKJV
“Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How UNSEARCHABLE [Gk: anexereunetos-impossible understand] are HIS [God] JUDGMENTS and HIS WAYS PAST FINDING OUT [Gk: anexichniastos-impossible trace God]!

‘For who HAS KNOWN THE MIND [flesh] of the LORD ["man’s goings are of the Lord; How then can a man understand his own way?" Prov. 20:24]? Or WHO [flesh] HAS BECOME HIS [God] COUNSELOR [adviser]?’
‘Or who [flesh] has first given to Him [God] And it shall be repaid [reward] to him [flesh]?’
FOR OF HIM [God] and THROUGH HIM and TO HIM are ALL THINGS, to whom be GLORY forever [Gk: aionas, same as aion; {eis ho aionas} into the ages/eons]. Amen.”

If God given us in spiritual, it is not one day understand fully but is progressing. I wish we could have now but it is God's control and He knows what is best for us.

I hope Kat helped you out. And hope you get some insight (or maybe complete insight :D).

Brett
« Last Edit: January 12, 2007, 03:06:35 AM by Brett »
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bobf

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Re: Free Will is an Oxymoron.
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2007, 03:48:34 AM »

I believe Paul answers the question in Romans 9.  Paul asks, "Why does he yet find fault?"  This is the same as asking why does he hold accountable the vessels of dishonor when they can not resist His will.

Romans 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

First we are to recognize that God knows what He is doing.

Romans 9:20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

And now Paul gives the reason.

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.

So God finds fault (holds accountable) in order to....
1. show His wrath
2. make His power known
3. make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy

As an example, take the prodigal son.  It is my opinion that he was first a vessel of dishonor since he sold his inheritance for a bowl of stew (riotous living).  God held him accountable by sending a famine and putting him in a hopless situation and reducing him to the state of a pig.  By doing so God made known His wrath & power upon that vessel. Later, when the prodigal son repented, he became a vessel of honor. And God made known the riches of His glory and His mercy on that vessel.

So God holds us accountable for our benefit, so we can see His wrath, power, glory, and mercy.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2007, 03:53:39 AM by bobf »
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Chris R

  • Guest
Re: Free Will is an Oxymoron.
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2007, 09:15:31 AM »

Same for me John.  I am on the 2nd listening of Rays tape & of course I have read his paper on Free Will twice.   I get it.....I don't get it....I know it....I forget it....

I agree that the forum helps keep it in front of me...

Sorin, I agree that is a fuzzy area for me. If I really had no choice in what I "chose" and it was fore ordained for me to do it, then why should I be punished for it???  Yes, I agree that given the set of circumstances anyone couldve been a Hitler, but I don't see how that changes anything.

Clearly, w/o double-speak, I have no choice but to choose what was predestined for me to choose. So why does God hold me accountable????

Another question, God is no respector of persons right???  What does this exactly mean??  If God chose Hitler to be Hitler and Billy Graham to have a grand, life isn't that bing a respector of persons?

love,
gena


Hi Gena,

Why does God make the rain fall on the wicked, and the righteous?  This is a tough question for the human mind to conceive.  Why does he make one vessel for honor, and one for dis-honor?  So that he can save us ALL!

 Rom 9:18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.


 Rom 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?


 Rom 9:20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?

Its a tough question, and even a tougher answer.

Hope this is of some help.

Chris R
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