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Free Will is an Oxymoron.

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Sorin:
Ray does a great job of explaining how we don't have 'freedom of the will' and I agree, we can only choose from a number of possible alternatives, and we always end up choosing what God predetermined from the begining of our life that we will choose. I get that part, but what I don't get is, since our lives were predetermined/ pre destinated by God, and everything we do, even what Hitler did was unavoidable because we can not thwart God's plan and purpose, I don't get how we are still held accountable for our actions.

I mean sure if Hitler had free will he probably would not have done what he did. I understand the whole cause and effect thing, and that all our choices are caused, but since they are caused and can not be avoided by us, why are we still accountable for something we had no power over [i.e. stopping the cause from creating an effect].

That's what I don't understand. Sure Ray says we are 'sinning machines' we love to sin and I agree, but he leaves out the cause, we sinned because of the cause, if there were no cause, there would be no effect [sin] and since that cause I would assume comes from God [since he is working all things after the counsel of his own will] then God is absolutely responsible, but I don't see how we are accountable. Because we didn't have the 'freedom' to choose not to sin, or do a certain thing or not. And who can stay God's hand, right?

So yeah, help me out here,
Sorin

YellowStone:
Sorin,

We do not have "Free-Will" but do indeed have "Free-Choice"

However, we are only "Free" in the sense of the confines iimposed by God. We are free, to laugh, smile, cry, hate, work, swim, in fact free to feel any emotion. HOWEVER, this does not mean that we God cannot influence us because we are NOT free of the Will of God. Many may say that if this is true, and if we do have freedom of choice, then we should be able to choose to jump to the Moon, try and then cry foul because they cannot! :)

They missed it though, they chose to jump and they may have even tried; but the laws of physics (put in place by God and controlled by God) prevented them from reaching their Goal.

If they had "Free-Will" as many claim to have, then they would be free to "will" themselves to the moon and "bingo" they would be there.

Does this make sense? I always confused "Free-Will" with "Free-Choice"

Love,
Darren

Sorin:
Darren,

No, Darren, Ray goes through great lenghts to explain that while we make choices our choices are [always] caused. So, no we don't have 'free-choice' because if we did, we'd have free will. A 'free-choice' is an effect without a cause.

So, I'll rephrase my question, since all are choices are caused, how are we still held accountable for our actions?

Take care,
Sorin

Kat:
Hi Sorin,

The way I look at it is, we are accountable because we actually are the one doing it.
God may have caused all the circumstances, but He did not take controll of us and make us do it.
He has given us the means to carry out the physical actions on our own.
Not decide them on our own, but carry them out on our own.
So since we actually do them, we are held accountable, because the actions were done by us.
Does that help any?

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

YellowStone:
Sorin,

I will find the email from Ray that say's we can thinkl, feel, etc. That we are not brainless like trees :)

Darren

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