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Author Topic: Resurrection of the Dead  (Read 23580 times)

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buddyjc

  • Guest
Re: Resurrection of the Dead
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2007, 11:37:47 AM »

Concerning the O.T. saints.  I believe the elect will judge them at the great white throne, and that they will be resurrected with the unjust, thereby explaining Heb. 11:40.  They will not be made perfect 'without us.'  Remember that 'these all died in faith, not having received the promises...'  (Heb. 11:13 and also compare 1 Peter 1:10-12) 

Brian



Yes, and not only that, but, if the OT saints were to come up in the first resurrection, and or get into The Kingdom of God without entering in by the door [Jesus said He is The Door, The [only] way, The Truth, and The Life, He is the only Name under heaven by which we must be saved etc...] or without Christ, then that would mean that we don't need Christ to get into God's Kingdom.



Good points Kat.  The O.T. prophets wrote of it (salvation) but had no idea what it meant.  They saw it 'afar off.'  Yes, good points.
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Resurrection of the Dead
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2007, 02:21:57 PM »


I found this email to Ray and thought it would help in this discussion.



    Kingdom
« on: June 05, 2006, 07:31:43 PM »     

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Ray,
    I've watched your videos on Mike's site. They were very good except for the sound was often too low. Are you saying that no one from the OT will be in the 1st. resurrection? In Heb. 11 it mentions a number of people who suffered that v.35 they might obtain a better resurrection. Luke 13:28 says the patriarchs will be in the K. of G. while others are denied entrance at that time. I understand that all will eventually receive eternal life. Is it not correct to say that all will enter the Kingdom  (which lasts forever and is handed to the Father) after receiving eternal life 1sr. Cor. 15:24; Dan. 7:27?
    May God continue to use you to free many of us from our enslavement to HWA's teaching.
    Mel
 
 
    Dear Mel:
    The fact that some will enter into the Kingdom before others, does not necessarily mean that those will, therefore, be in the first resurrection.  Remember that in judgment some will be given few stripes (as I suspect the patriarchs of old will be), and other MANY stripes, which indicates that those with many stripes will come in at a later time. In Rev. 21 we see people entering into the city, but without, there are those who are not as yet entering in.
     
    Read verse 40 of Heb. 11:  "God having provided some better thing for US [for 'us' not 'them']. that THEY without US should NOT be made perfect"  It is only through US, that THEY will thereafter [after the first resurrection] be perfected (make complete).
     
    Even King David (a man after God's Own heart), died a MURDERER.  He appointed his son Solomon as a hit man to KILL David's enemies after he was gone.  And James tells us that "he who hates his brother is a murderer, and no murderer has eternal [eonian] life abiding in him."
    God be with you,
    Ray
 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Resurrection of the Dead
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2007, 02:42:14 PM »

Hello Sorin

You wrote : then that would mean that we don't need Christ to get into God's 

That observation led me to think of the Orthadox Jews! They too are not going to be in the first resurrection because they are not able to see Christ as the Messiah yet!

Peace be to you

Arcturus :)
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M_Oliver

  • Guest
Re: Resurrection of the Dead
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2007, 03:07:20 PM »


Hi Mark and Gena,

Quote
Luk 12:47 And, that servant, who had come to know the will of his lord, and neither prepared, nor wrought unto his will, shall be beaten with many stripes;

Looking at this verse, this is what came to my mind.

Who claim to be 'servants' of the Lord?  And preach from the many pulpits of Christiandom about the Lord.  They hold the bible as true and study it and 'know' what it says.  Are they doing the will of the Lord?  Are they prepared to face Him?

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

Excellent point.  I am pretty sure I have heard Ray say that some of these same people you refer to do know some truths BUT refuse to teach them...

Mark
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vic

  • Guest
Re: Resurrection of the Dead
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2007, 08:24:45 AM »

Hello Kat,

Please read Gal 3:25 - 29.  For example v29 If you be Christ's  (to quote you) "belong to Christ"

Then are you Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. There is neither  Jew not Greek, bond or free, male or female, for we are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gen  14:18 Melchizedek King of Salem, brought forth bread and wine, and he was priest ofthe Most high God. (the same symbols Christ introduced at the last supper) and he blessed  Abram,

saying blessed be  Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth.

This Mekchisedek is the same Jesus Christ that  became  the second Adam, was crucified and resurrected, and will return. Our  High Priest of the order of Melchizedek forever.  Heb 5:5-14.



No Abraham the father of the faithfull will be with us in in the first resurrection 1 Cor 15: 51 behold I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep (die), but we shall all be changed,

in amoment in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump;  for the trumpet shall sound and the dead (those who died in the faith as Abraham) shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed ...

As well  all the those who died in the faith, those listed as being faithfull in Heb 11, will be in the first resurrection Heb 11:39 - 40

And all  these having received witness through faith received ntthe promise,

God having providied some better thing for us that they without us (both them and us) shold be made perfect. (In the resurrection).

I am eagerly looking forward to be with and to see and talk with all the faithfull from Abel, like David a man after God's own heart, Noah, Abraham , Isaac and Jacob(Israel), Joseph, Shadrach, Mesech and Abed-nego, and all the others who died in the faith.

Vic.





Hi Vic,

The only way to be in the first resurrection is to belong to Christ.

1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23  But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

The patriarchs never knew Christ, they must be brought to salvation through Christ, just like everybody will have to be.
Now John the Baptist died before Christ's resurrection, that saves us.  So John will not be in the first resurrection, he is less than the least in the kingdom.  But I have to believe he will be brought into the kingdom almost immediately after his resurrection, because he knew Christ and who He was.

Mat 11:11  Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat



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sansmile

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Re: Resurrection of the Dead
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2007, 09:09:49 AM »



Hi Vic You said:


quote:
No Abraham the father of the faithfull will be with us in in the first resurrection 1 Cor 15: 51 behold I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep (die), but we shall all be changed,

in a moment in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump;  for the trumpet shall sound and the dead (those who died in the faith as Abraham) shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed ...
unquote

I believe here Paul was talkng about those who would STILL BE ALIVE at His second coming. Thats why they shant die.

YSIC
Sandie



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Walk in the Spirit

Kat

  • Guest
Re: Resurrection of the Dead
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2007, 12:45:27 PM »

Hi Vic,

Rom 10:9  because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

It is only by His name that we are saved, but we must be cruified with Christ, if He lives in us.

Gal 2:20  I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21  I do not nullify the grace of God, for if justification were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Very few come to really know Christ, certainly it is not the whole church and those in the OT have never even heard of Christ Jesus.

Mat 7:13  "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
Mat 7:14  For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

We must have faith in Christ, share in His sufferings, and become like Him, to attain the first resurrection.

Phi 3:8  Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For His sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ
Phi 3:9  and be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith-
Phi 3:10  that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and may share His sufferings, becoming like Him in his death, ,
Phi 3:11  that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

If we are in Him we will not be ashamed at His appearing, because He is living in us and we are His.

1Jo 2:28  And now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He is revealed, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him in His coming.

I hope this helps your understanding, if not maybe you should email Ray, he may be able to help you more.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat


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Joey Porter

  • Guest
Re: Resurrection of the Dead
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2007, 04:06:37 PM »

I have always seen the 'barley' which is first to be harvested, as symbolic of the 'elect.'  Barley is 'rough' and an 'ugly' grain.  To remove the chaff from barley it is 'winnowed' whereas the wheat is threshed, or beaten.  I believe the middle grounders are the 'wheat.'  These will be threshed in judgment. 

Luk 12:46  The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Luk 12:47  And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk 12:48  But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Luk 12:49  I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Some will be given 'few' stripes while others 'many' stripes. 

Concerning the above portion of scripture, Jesus told this to His disciples.  And I believe that it pertains to us who feel we may be on the "chosen" path.

Look at what He says in Matthew 24:

45"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is staying away a long time,' 49and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


See the part about beating the fellow servants?  I believe that's talking beating them over the head with things that they are not ready or able to accept. 

And the part about feeding them their food allowance at the proper time?  I believe that means we need to have the discernment to address people's spiritual state on an individual basis and give them what they need to hear when they need to hear it, like Paul.

1 Corinthians 3
2I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.


See, Paul had the wisdom and discernment to realize that they couldn't handle the meat.  If he had tried to force-feed the Corinthians meat when they were only ready for milk, he would be "beating his fellow servants."  Even though the meat is Truth, it would have been truth that they were not ready for at that time.

That's because Paul knew:

6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor.

I think it's easy for our flesh to get in the way and deceive us into thinking that we can cause the growth.  And when that happens, we start beating our fellow servants with meat that they're not yet ready to swallow.

So, even though we're supposed to "expose those who contradict" and  teach things that we know to be true, we need to ask God for discernment on what to say and how to say it and when to say it.  Because we must humble ourselves and understand that nothing we say will cause growth in someone.  Only God can cause the growth.  We should just feel  worthy to be used as vessels.

I think about the way Jesus taught.  Often times He would tell someone to do something without telling them how.

Think about the rich young ruler.  He never actually told him what he was lacking.  He even let him walk away. 

Or how about the time Jesus said that we would never enter the kingdom unless we humbled ourselves like a small child.  But He never explained exactly what that meant, or told us how to do it.

When we are sharing hidden truths of God's word with pepole, I think it good for us to just give a little at a time.  If it is God's will for that person to grow, they will come back and seek more.  But if we try to force feed everything to them at once, we are beating them, and we are sinning by not relying on God to cause the growth.

That's not to say we should be lazy and keep everything inside ourselves.  Again, it's all a matter of allowing God to guide us in any given situation. 

I know that kind of went off topic a little, but it does relate to how we'll be judged at the resurrection.  If we go about just trying to force meat down people's throats, we will be beaten with many blows.  And that's because we have been given deeper revelation than most people, but we would have abused it by trying to complete the growth process in others with our own works.  We are to rely on God to cause the growth.

That's probably why Paul, even though he believed he had been chosen, said:

1 Corinthians 9
27No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.


The flesh is very deceptive.  We know that the entire called Christian world believes they are serving by the spirit, when in fact they are serving by the flesh.  Those of us who have been called out must be careful not to fall into the same trap and disqualify ourselves for the prize.


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rvhill

  • Guest
Re: Resurrection of the Dead
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2007, 05:22:30 PM »

I kind of answered this in the sharing UR thread

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2804.45.html


The lake of fire is God and his believers. The beast is the son of perdition, The son of perdition sit in the temple God. We are the temple of God. Everything goes in to the lake of fire. So if everyone is a worshiper of the beast then who is saved?
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Resurrection of the Dead
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2007, 05:55:14 PM »

I have always seen the 'barley' which is first to be harvested, as symbolic of the 'elect.'  Barley is 'rough' and an 'ugly' grain.  To remove the chaff from barley it is 'winnowed' whereas the wheat is threshed, or beaten.  I believe the middle grounders are the 'wheat.'  These will be threshed in judgment. 

Luk 12:46  The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Luk 12:47  And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk 12:48  But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Luk 12:49  I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Some will be given 'few' stripes while others 'many' stripes. 

Concerning the above portion of scripture, Jesus told this to His disciples.  And I believe that it pertains to us who feel we may be on the "chosen" path.

Look at what He says in Matthew 24:

45"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is staying away a long time,' 49and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


See the part about beating the fellow servants?  I believe that's talking beating them over the head with things that they are not ready or able to accept. 

And the part about feeding them their food allowance at the proper time?  I believe that means we need to have the discernment to address people's spiritual state on an individual basis and give them what they need to hear when they need to hear it, like Paul.

1 Corinthians 3
2I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.


See, Paul had the wisdom and discernment to realize that they couldn't handle the meat.  If he had tried to force-feed the Corinthians meat when they were only ready for milk, he would be "beating his fellow servants."  Even though the meat is Truth, it would have been truth that they were not ready for at that time.

That's because Paul knew:

6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor.

I think it's easy for our flesh to get in the way and deceive us into thinking that we can cause the growth.  And when that happens, we start beating our fellow servants with meat that they're not yet ready to swallow.

So, even though we're supposed to "expose those who contradict" and  teach things that we know to be true, we need to ask God for discernment on what to say and how to say it and when to say it.  Because we must humble ourselves and understand that nothing we say will cause growth in someone.  Only God can cause the growth.  We should just feel  worthy to be used as vessels.

I think about the way Jesus taught.  Often times He would tell someone to do something without telling them how.

Think about the rich young ruler.  He never actually told him what he was lacking.  He even let him walk away. 

Or how about the time Jesus said that we would never enter the kingdom unless we humbled ourselves like a small child.  But He never explained exactly what that meant, or told us how to do it.

When we are sharing hidden truths of God's word with pepole, I think it good for us to just give a little at a time.  If it is God's will for that person to grow, they will come back and seek more.  But if we try to force feed everything to them at once, we are beating them, and we are sinning by not relying on God to cause the growth.

That's not to say we should be lazy and keep everything inside ourselves.  Again, it's all a matter of allowing God to guide us in any given situation. 

I know that kind of went off topic a little, but it does relate to how we'll be judged at the resurrection.  If we go about just trying to force meat down people's throats, we will be beaten with many blows.  And that's because we have been given deeper revelation than most people, but we would have abused it by trying to complete the growth process in others with our own works.  We are to rely on God to cause the growth.

That's probably why Paul, even though he believed he had been chosen, said:

1 Corinthians 9
27No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.


The flesh is very deceptive.  We know that the entire called Christian world believes they are serving by the spirit, when in fact they are serving by the flesh.  Those of us who have been called out must be careful not to fall into the same trap and disqualify ourselves for the prize.





Joey,

Well stated.

Once again you have made a poignant and very compelling point, just as Solomom prayed for discernment in dealing with his kingdom in physical Israel, we should be doing the same thing in Christ's spiritual Kingdom.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Resurrection of the Dead
« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2007, 06:01:42 PM »

Hello rvhill

You ask : So if everyone is a worshiper of the beast then who is saved?

Rom 3 : 23 For ALL have sinned, and  come short of the glory of God.

....then who is saved?...you ask.

1Cor 15:23  But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at His coming those who belong to Christ.

There is an order. It is God's order that shows us who is saved.

Matt 19 : 30 But MANY who are first will be last and the last shall be first.


As Paul wrote...The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.....

Arcturus  :)
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Resurrection of the Dead
« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2007, 06:06:14 PM »

PS...All will be saved.

Just not at the same time! :D
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Resurrection of the Dead
« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2007, 06:08:58 PM »

I kind of answered this in the sharing UR thread

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2804.45.html


The lake of fire is God and his believers. The beast is the son of perdition, The son of perdition sit in the temple God. We are the temple of God. Everything goes in to the lake of fire. So if everyone is a worshiper of the beast then who is saved?


Hi RV,

It's true that everyone at some point will have the beast displaced or purged out of them, for the elect in the present life through chastisement, trials and tribulation where we are active, (painfully active at times) in judging ourselves. The "overcomers" through the Spirit of Christ become this symbolic, spiritual Lake of Fire for the Fall Harvest who are raised to the White Throne Judgement.

All will eventually enter the Kingdom, in their own season, in His time, some will receive few stripes and some will receive many, for some it will be minor adjustments and others will be totally overhauled depending on the condition of their heart, on their steadfast embrace of the idol within.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
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rvhill

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Re: Resurrection of the Dead
« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2007, 06:17:34 PM »

my then who is saved? Was something of a rhetorical question.
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Joey Porter

  • Guest
Re: Resurrection of the Dead
« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2007, 06:29:10 PM »




Joey,

Well stated.

Once again you have made a poignant and very compelling point, just as Solomom prayed for discernment in dealing with his kingdom in physical Israel, we should be doing the same thing in Christ's spiritual Kingdom.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe



Hi Joe.  Thanks for the encouragement.  It was nice to actually contribute a post for the first time in a while.
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Resurrection of the Dead
« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2007, 06:33:52 PM »

Hello rvhill

my then who is saved? Was something of a rhetorical question.

Not rhetorical perhaps but repeated yes. I noticed that you asked the same question in Question about SharingUR thread where you yourself presented part of the answer you were perhaps seeking. You quoted 1 Cor 3 : 17 and 2 Thes 2 : 4

1 Corinthians 3:17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

Those who are God's temple are saved because God will destroy anyone who destroys God's temple.

Who destroys God's temple? Those who oppose and exalt themselves above God.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

As Paul writes...the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.

Arcturus  :)
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Resurrection of the Dead
« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2007, 06:34:16 PM »

Hi folks.  Just read an e mail of Rays about the cosen saints will resurrect to rule w/ Christ and the wicked vile unbelievers will be raised to judgement.

Just wanted to know what anyone thought about the "other" group of people--the ones in the middle of those 2 groups.

The believers who may not be chosen, and decent "God fearing" people of tribes & tongues that have not heard....????

thanks,
gena

Gena,

I believe Kat and some of the others answered this through the thread but as it often happens we have veered off in some other directions.

There are 3 types of "ultimately saved" people, the elect, those who are called but for whatever reason remain (spiritually) unlearned or even deceived, and those who are unbelievers. But there are only 2 results, raised first, to glory or to be raised to the White Throne Judgement and the Lake.

Luk 12:46  The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Resurrection of the Dead
« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2007, 06:41:36 PM »

At last the short story! ;D

You make running this race quite worth while Joe!  8)

Pretty simple when you see it like that hey Gena? Three types...two results  ;D That helps...as has this entire thread that has been very edifying.  8)

I feel like I have just gone from the one thousand meters to the short distance 100 meters sprint.  ;D

His Joy to you

Arcturus :)



« Last Edit: January 15, 2007, 06:44:56 PM by Arcturus »
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whatslifeallabout

  • Guest
Re: Resurrection of the Dead
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2007, 08:49:25 PM »


Hi Vic,

The only way to be in the first resurrection is to belong to Christ.

1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23  But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

The patriarchs never knew Christ, they must be brought to salvation through Christ, just like everybody will have to be.


Hi Kat and friends,

I appreciate this forum!  Do have a question though:

Can we really say with assurance that the patriarchs did not know CHRIST Himself?  Naturally they did not know about the life He lived after being born of Mary, or the crucifixion, etc. 

But Christ is the "Mediator between God (the Father) and man" - Hebrews-- and hasn't He always been? 

The Scriptures say more than once "No man has ever seen God" and yet there are accounts in the Old Testament of men seeing God, from Him walking in the Garden to appearing to Abraham, etc.  I see these as "pre-incarnate" appearances of Christ.

The Old Testament prophets had a level of relationship with God that allowed them to quote (sometimes for pages on end) the actual words of God as they were prophesying. 

Do any of us today have THIS LEVEL of relationship with God?  Do we have a relationship with God that surpasses the relationship with God experienced by Enoch, or Noah, or Moses? 

Peter says "The Spirit of Christ that was in them" was speaking through the prophets of old. 

Jesus said that you MUST be born again in order to enter the Kingdom of God.  No exceptions.  Does that only take place in the life of those who have actually heard the Gospel, or can God work apart from the words of men?  Can we really assume that the Spirit of God couldn't allow someone to be born of God unless they hear about the Gospel?  Isn't that the same kind of Baptist thinking that ultimately results in "Pray this sinner's prayer and you will live forever with God, and if you don't you will burn forever" --

in other words, the church claims that you have to hear this particular message (which MOST of the world has never heard) in order for God to be able to work in your heart and spirit, and be born into God's family.   I think it makes more sense what Jesus said when He said "The Spirit goes wherever it wants -- you can hear the sound of it but you dont know where it's coming from or where it's going.  It's the same way with everyone who is born of the Spirit. "

It seems true that "God is Love, and those who truly love are Born of God and know God.  Those who don't know Love don't know God for God IS love".

God's Spirit of Holy Love is at work all over the world, in the hearts of men.  It seems that this means that people like Abraham certainly could, in fact, have known Jesus Himself, and did in fact give their hearts to Jesus, and were born into His family even though they didn't hear the full message (and how many people HAVE heard the full and complete message of the Gospel, for that matter?)

Should we limit God to only working in the lives of those who understand the true Gospel?  NO ONE in the Old Testament understood the deeper things discussed on this site -- and out of a billion people on this planet who are Christians, it looks like there are less than 500 of them are regular users of this site.  Is doctrinal correctness the key to entering the Kingdom, along with living a sinless life and successfully crucifying our flesh? 

If so, may God have mercy on us all (maybe that's why we all need our wonderful Savior!).

If doctrinal understanding is the key to entering the kingdom, it seems safe to assume that no one will get in on the first round.  For example, even among this abnormally blessed (with insight and knowledge) group:  can anyone reading this posting, say for a certainty that they are for sure part of a very elect few who will attain to the first resurrection and rulership with Christ?

May God abundantly bless you all!

Warmly,
Rob





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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Resurrection of the Dead
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2007, 09:08:50 PM »

Quote
The Scriptures say more than once "No man has ever seen God" and yet there are accounts in the Old Testament of men seeing God, from Him walking in the Garden to appearing to Abraham, etc.  I see these as "pre-incarnate" appearances of Christ.

Rob, are you aware that Christ is the God of the Old Testament? No man has seen God The Father.

Dennis
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