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Resurrection of the Dead
buddyjc:
--- Quote from: Sorin on January 14, 2007, 11:35:23 AM ---
--- Quote from: buddyjc on January 14, 2007, 10:55:23 AM ---Concerning the O.T. saints. I believe the elect will judge them at the great white throne, and that they will be resurrected with the unjust, thereby explaining Heb. 11:40. They will not be made perfect 'without us.' Remember that 'these all died in faith, not having received the promises...' (Heb. 11:13 and also compare 1 Peter 1:10-12)
Brian
--- End quote ---
Yes, and not only that, but, if the OT saints were to come up in the first resurrection, and or get into The Kingdom of God without entering in by the door [Jesus said He is The Door, The [only] way, The Truth, and The Life, He is the only Name under heaven by which we must be saved etc...] or without Christ, then that would mean that we don't need Christ to get into God's Kingdom.
--- End quote ---
Good points Kat. The O.T. prophets wrote of it (salvation) but had no idea what it meant. They saw it 'afar off.' Yes, good points.
Kat:
I found this email to Ray and thought it would help in this discussion.
Kingdom
« on: June 05, 2006, 07:31:43 PM »
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Hi Ray,
I've watched your videos on Mike's site. They were very good except for the sound was often too low. Are you saying that no one from the OT will be in the 1st. resurrection? In Heb. 11 it mentions a number of people who suffered that v.35 they might obtain a better resurrection. Luke 13:28 says the patriarchs will be in the K. of G. while others are denied entrance at that time. I understand that all will eventually receive eternal life. Is it not correct to say that all will enter the Kingdom (which lasts forever and is handed to the Father) after receiving eternal life 1sr. Cor. 15:24; Dan. 7:27?
May God continue to use you to free many of us from our enslavement to HWA's teaching.
Mel
Dear Mel:
The fact that some will enter into the Kingdom before others, does not necessarily mean that those will, therefore, be in the first resurrection. Remember that in judgment some will be given few stripes (as I suspect the patriarchs of old will be), and other MANY stripes, which indicates that those with many stripes will come in at a later time. In Rev. 21 we see people entering into the city, but without, there are those who are not as yet entering in.
Read verse 40 of Heb. 11: "God having provided some better thing for US [for 'us' not 'them']. that THEY without US should NOT be made perfect" It is only through US, that THEY will thereafter [after the first resurrection] be perfected (make complete).
Even King David (a man after God's Own heart), died a MURDERER. He appointed his son Solomon as a hit man to KILL David's enemies after he was gone. And James tells us that "he who hates his brother is a murderer, and no murderer has eternal [eonian] life abiding in him."
God be with you,
Ray
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat
Deborah-Leigh:
Hello Sorin
You wrote : then that would mean that we don't need Christ to get into God's
That observation led me to think of the Orthadox Jews! They too are not going to be in the first resurrection because they are not able to see Christ as the Messiah yet!
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
M_Oliver:
--- Quote from: Kat on January 14, 2007, 02:12:46 AM ---
Hi Mark and Gena,
--- Quote ---Luk 12:47 And, that servant, who had come to know the will of his lord, and neither prepared, nor wrought unto his will, shall be beaten with many stripes;
--- End quote ---
Looking at this verse, this is what came to my mind.
Who claim to be 'servants' of the Lord? And preach from the many pulpits of Christiandom about the Lord. They hold the bible as true and study it and 'know' what it says. Are they doing the will of the Lord? Are they prepared to face Him?
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
Excellent point. I am pretty sure I have heard Ray say that some of these same people you refer to do know some truths BUT refuse to teach them...
Mark
vic:
Hello Kat,
Please read Gal 3:25 - 29. For example v29 If you be Christ's (to quote you) "belong to Christ"
Then are you Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. There is neither Jew not Greek, bond or free, male or female, for we are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gen 14:18 Melchizedek King of Salem, brought forth bread and wine, and he was priest ofthe Most high God. (the same symbols Christ introduced at the last supper) and he blessed Abram,
saying blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth.
This Mekchisedek is the same Jesus Christ that became the second Adam, was crucified and resurrected, and will return. Our High Priest of the order of Melchizedek forever. Heb 5:5-14.
No Abraham the father of the faithfull will be with us in in the first resurrection 1 Cor 15: 51 behold I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep (die), but we shall all be changed,
in amoment in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound and the dead (those who died in the faith as Abraham) shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed ...
As well all the those who died in the faith, those listed as being faithfull in Heb 11, will be in the first resurrection Heb 11:39 - 40
And all these having received witness through faith received ntthe promise,
God having providied some better thing for us that they without us (both them and us) shold be made perfect. (In the resurrection).
I am eagerly looking forward to be with and to see and talk with all the faithfull from Abel, like David a man after God's own heart, Noah, Abraham , Isaac and Jacob(Israel), Joseph, Shadrach, Mesech and Abed-nego, and all the others who died in the faith.
Vic.
--- Quote from: Kat on January 14, 2007, 11:30:19 AM ---
Hi Vic,
The only way to be in the first resurrection is to belong to Christ.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
The patriarchs never knew Christ, they must be brought to salvation through Christ, just like everybody will have to be.
Now John the Baptist died before Christ's resurrection, that saves us. So John will not be in the first resurrection, he is less than the least in the kingdom. But I have to believe he will be brought into the kingdom almost immediately after his resurrection, because he knew Christ and who He was.
Mat 11:11 Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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