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Author Topic: Free Will  (Read 3730 times)

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Craig

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Free Will
« on: January 16, 2007, 06:36:26 PM »

A rubber band once stretched will never go back to its original size. That is how I am feeling while reading through your website. You have introduced ideas and concepts that I long suspected 'might be the case'.  And you say so much better than I. But there seems to be one possible hole in your understanding that haunts me throughout your material and is yet to be addressed by you.

One example of the 'haunting hole' is found in the section called: FOREKNOWLEDGE CONTRADICTS FREE WILL... "To argue that when God prophesies, states, and intends that someone do a particular thing, that the person is still at liberty because of his supposed free will, to not do what God has said, is absurdity on the highest level. Yet this IS what the theory of free will demands."

Respectfully may I suggest that Foreknowledge does not always mean Causation.  God after all lives in Eternity, we however live in Time. As creatures of time, time is all we know. You present many new ideas very well, but as a fellow creature of time, you inadvertently leave this hole, perhaps.

God who lives in Eternity sees past present future simultaneously. Perhaps He sees it all at once before Him like we would see a row of chairs before us.  In any case, God is Sovereign and as such He rules and OVER-RULES in the affairs of men as He brings about  His will.  Is it not possible that God works out His plans in view of what He foreknows?  Is it not equally valid explanation when Jesus predicted Peter would deny Him is an example of  God's foreknowledge, not necessarily an example of Causation.

It not equally an amazing thing to know that  God's Sovereignty is so great that He can/does Rules and Over-Rules without ever once violating man's free moral agency/free will?  That He works out His plan, using His divine attributes, one of them being Foreknowledge.

Does it have to be that God 'knows' because He 'causes'?  Old Testament example: God used the Assyrians like a baseball bat [sort of] to punish Israel, then turned around punished Assyria for hurting His people. How is that fair? Its fair because while God foreknew used the wickedness of Assyria and used it for his purposes, He didn't CAUSE them to be wicked. Their being wicked was on their head, it was their free will. The fact that God exploited that to His purposes speaks majestically of His Sovereignty! What a great and awesome God we have that cannot be thwarted, nor any finger pointed at Him on Judgement day for being punished for wicked deeds done without choice!

You DO deserve my respect however. You are obviously a "truth seeker". I have known few who dig and have unearthed as many gold nuggets of truth about God as you. I am continuing to read through your insights, and will embrace truth as it is pressed home to me by God's Spirit of truth. Thank you for the effort, actually amazing endurance of study and diligence! May God open our eyes of understanding! It takes God to know God. If He doesn't reveal Himself/Truth to us, we won't know Him/it:-)

God bless you!
Steve


Dear Steved:

If God knows that I MUST make a certain choice ten years from now, then it is foolish to suggest that my choice is, nonetheless, FREE to not be made. You can suggest all kinds of silly unscriptural things like "God lives in the past, present, future," and therefor can see things before they happen. Listen.....are you LISTENING?  If a choice is truly FREE, that it is free to be this way or that way, and there is nothing that will cause or effect it to be this way or that way except this spooky phantom thing called "free" will, then the choice CANNOT BE KNOWN BEFORE IT IS MADE. End of argument.You may have to meditate on that one for a few seconds (or years), but it is true--a choice that is not in some way CAUSED TO HAPPEN, cannot be known BEFORE it happens, or it simply is not free.

God be with you,

Ray
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Craig

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2007, 06:38:05 PM »

Thank you for replying, I know you get tons of emails so I do appreciate that you did reply. You replied to me  "If God knows that I MUST make a certain choice ten years from now, then it is foolish to suggest that my choice is, nonetheless, FREE to not be made. You can suggest all kinds of silly unscriptural things like "God lives in the past, present, future," and therefore can see things before they happen."
First, I did not say God lives in the past, present, future. I said that God lives in Eternity.   From His vantage place He can see the entire line continuum we call time.
 
Secondly: Why you would equate God's foreknowledge with God causing is beyond my ability to grasp. I see a BIG difference between the two.
 
Thirdly; If you are saying that you MUST [for example] eat a donut tomorrow at 9am because God has ordered circumstances in your life such that you can only make one choice tomorrow: eat a donut at 9am, now that's really absurd. Worse, its sad. It suggests we are manipulated 24X7X365 by God through circumstances, making any act of love & devotion towards Him null & void.  How meaningful would a birthday card from a child of yours be TO YOU if you carefully arrange it so that your child has no choice but to buy you a birthday card.  When opening it, just how special is that card to you?
 
Ray, if your insights to scripture were true, then we are all controlled automatons. End of story.
 


You and those who cannot see the simple of Truth concerning the Sovereignty of God use words like puppets, atomatons, and robots, as though they were DIRTY WORDS. You utterly fail to see that we are billions of times more complex than "puppets" or "atomatons."  You fail to see that we LEARN. We have the ability to accumulate, process data, AND LEARN. That God puts us in the situations necessary to accomplish this is no sin.
We "train" our little children by our SUPERIOR POWER AND KNOWLEDGE, and we in fact, FORCE (if you want to use a strong word) our will upon them, by LOVINGLY TEACHING them right from wrong. And thankfully, THEY DO LEARN, and that is no sin on our part for having superior knowledge, wisdom, and power to enforce our will on theirs in this learning process. We ARE God's children.
You are fighting the Scriptures and the laws of physics. There are NO uncaused effects anywhere in the universe except in the deceived minds of carnal-minded men. Listen to my Bible Study from Sunday on our Forum. It is on "free will."
God be with you,
Ray
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