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[sj]

Yesterday I was searching through the email section looking for some of Ray's responses to the issue of free will and I came across what I felt was an extraordinary answer. Here is Ray's response with some underlining to add emphasis on what stood out to me.

Dear ________:

If God knows that I MUST make a certain choice ten years from now, then it is foolish to suggest that my choice is, nonetheless, FREE to not be made. You can suggest all kinds of silly unscriptural things like "God lives in the past, present, future," and therefor can see things before they happen. Listen.....are you LISTENING?  If a choice is truly FREE, that it is free to be this way or that way, and there is nothing that will cause or effect it to be this way or that way except this spooky phantom thing called "free" will, then the choice CANNOT BE KNOWN BEFORE IT IS MADE. End of argument.You may have to meditate on that one for a few seconds (or years), but it is true--a choice that is not in some way CAUSED TO HAPPEN, cannot be known BEFORE it happens, or it simply is not free.

God be with you,

Ray

For the last several months I have been meeting with a friend for a midweek lunch to discuss some of the new things I am learning out of the scriptures... a few months ago the conversation drifted to man's "free will" vs. God's soveriegnty... now it seems that this is the main topic of all of our conversations. It never seems to matter how much scripture we look through, He just can't bring himself to consider that his fate after this life is not his own decision.

I realize totally that their is nothing I can say to him to change his mind... It will happen in God's timing, but Ray's response helped me to logically think through this issue.

If God, in His omnipetence, knows without a doubt what you or I will do tomorrow... when tomorrow comes do we truly have a choice in the matter? No! It's already been decided.... the more and more I meditate on this subject the more and more I become thankful that I do not have a free will, I fear if it were left up to me... I truly would be unredeemable. Praise God for His grace in helping us to learn righteousness... in His time!

God's Peace.
Josh

[Sorin]

Josh,

Just because God knows what tomorrow will bring, and everything we will do tomorrow, or even 50 years from now, does not necessarily mean or prove that man does not have a free will. It just means God is all knowing, since eternity has no begining and no end, and God is eternal, He is outside of our time, He can be both in the past, in the present and in the future at the same time. That's how He knows what we will do tomorrow, but those choices could have been freely made. Just because we can't choose differently at any given moment in the future other then what God knows we will choose, does not mean something had to cause that choice, God just foresaw, and foreknew what we will choose because He is also ahead of that decision, that's like past to Him. So that's how He knows what we will choose before we ever choose Something. Causation doesn't have to have anything to do with God's foreknowledge. Unless you want to suggest that God is stuck here in the present with us, and the only way He can possibly know what we will choose in the future is to cause us to choose a certain way.  That's what I was trying to say. Does this make sense to you?

Take care,
Sorin

[eggi]

God being a passive observer "from eternity" does not comply with "working all things after the counsel of His own will".

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (Eph 1:11 KJV)

Another translation:

[...] in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will, (Eph 1:11 CLV)

Again "predetermined", not "foreseen":

For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done (Act 4:28 KJV)

It was determined before, and it is an active operation as it is carried out.

[sj]

Sorin,

Let me first say that I respect your opinion because I have read many of your posts and have many times related to where you are at in you faith journey, but here I must say we are going to have to disagree.

Is not God's foreknowledge a direct result of His sovereign choices...? Are not all of God's characteristics founded in His sovereignty?

I do agree with you that God exists limitlessly... therefore He is not under the constraints of any created thing, specifically "time"... yet WE ARE MOST DEFINITELY CONSTRAINED TO TIME in this age.

Think about it...

If God, whose existence is unconstrained by time, knows WITH 100% CERTAINTY what we, who are constrained by time, will have for lunch tomorrow.... tomorrow we will have a choice, but the decision has already been "caused", by God's soveriegn design, in advance, for God knows with 100% certainity what will happen in our tomorrow while we are still living in our today.

God's Peace.
Josh

[rocky]

Sorin,

Let me first say that I respect your opinion because I have read many of your posts and have many times related to where you are at in you faith journey, but here I must say we are going to have to disagree.

Is not God's foreknowledge a direct result of His sovereign choices...? Are not all of God's characteristics founded in His sovereignty?

I do agree with you that God exists limitlessly... therefore He is not under the constraints of any created thing, specifically "time"... yet WE ARE MOST DEFINITELY CONSTRAINED TO TIME in this age.

Think about it...

If God, whose existence is unconstrained by time, knows WITH 100% CERTAINTY what we, who are constrained by time, will have for lunch tomorrow.... tomorrow we will have a choice, but the decision has already been "caused", by God's soveriegn design, in advance, for God knows with 100% certainity what will happen in our tomorrow while we are still living in our today.

God's Peace.
Josh

Just like Peter, who was sure he would never deny the Lord, was going to do it anyway, because God planned it that way.  So he had a choice from his perspective, but his choice was already determined. 

[Sorin]

Eirik said: "God being a passive observer "from eternity" does not comply with "working all things after the counsel of His own will"."

Yes, I know that, but what I was attempting to portray was that, that is a weak argument for lack of free will because 'God knows what you will choose' and thus I gave an example of how it could be otherwise, without  causation.

Take care,
Sorin

[ciy]

Sorin, my friend, please take this in the right frame of mind and in the spirit that it is offered.  

Imagine you are in a room with white walls, now think of a color to paint these walls.  Try to think of a color that has never been before and is not in the color spectrum of the prism or rainbow.  If you can think of a color that is not available in creation then you have free will.  If you cannot come up with a color that is available in the color spectrum, then your choice is restricted or caused by the circumstances.  You choice of color is dependent on what is available and therefore your choice is caused by an "effect".

Another way.  If all the colors that were available were the primary colors red, yellow, and blue with no mixing or shading.  These are the only colors in nature, then you would have a choice between red, yellow, and blue.  You could not will the color purple because it is not available.  You simply have a choice to make between red, yellow, or blue.

This makes sense in my mind.  I hope it helps you see.

CIY

[Sorin]

CIY, 

Are you saying that since I choose to paint the whole room red, the only way God could possibly know that I would choose red is to cause me to choose red? Couldn't it be that He knows my thoughts? Knows that I would prefer red over the other colors and thus I choose red, and not only that but He is so ahead of that decision that the room is already fully painted red before I even get the option to choose a color from His point of view [in the future]. I'm not really saying we have free will or we don't. But if the only way God knows what we will do next is to cause us to do something, then He is limited to the present and his foreknowledge is dependent on causing us to choose a certain way, rather then knowing what we already choose before we get the choice to even make a decision.

Take care,
Sorin

[Kat]

Hi Sorin,

I just came across this email, it is a really good explanation.
Maybe this will help you.

http://bible-truths.com/email17.htm#why *-------------------------------------------

Dear Billy:

I know now that you are only 17, but if you insist on speaking about mature themes, then I will insist on answering on a mature level.

You say that you believe in the one true God who knows all things. But then you say that you believe in "free will." You need to sit down for a couple of hours sometime and think those statements through, Billy. They cannot BOTH be true. No they CAN'T!!!   Listen! When God KNOWS (for a fact) that something WILL HAPPEN, then it is absurd to say, "But maybe (just maybe) it DOESN'T HAVE TO HAPPEN!  If the thing doesn't have to happen, because you say it is FREE not to happen, then it is possible that it WILL NOT HAPPEN. But then God would be mistaken (which, by the way, would then be a SIN on God's part--a mistake is a sin by Scriptural definition).  When something is determined ahead of time to happen (namely God's foreknowledge that it WILL HAPPEN), then it absolutely cannot be otherwise lest God be mistaken. What ever is determined ahead of time to either happen or not happen, is NOT 'FREE' TO BE OTHERWISE! To say otherwise, is a contradiction. God is not a God of contradictions, lies, or confusion.

Billy, the reason that prophecies come to pass, is not because God has figured out in advance the probabilities of this or that happening by itself or aided by the phantom of 'free-will,' but rather because God CAUSES AND BRINGS ABOUT all of His prophecies. Maybe it's time for a Scripture. Does God anything tell us WHY things happen as they happen? Yes, He does! Isaiah 46:10-11:

"Declaring the end from the beginning [yes, God can DO THAT. But HOW?], and from the ancient times the things that are NOT YET DONE [But HOW? How does God DO IT?], saying, my COUNSEL SHALL STAND, I WILL DO ALL my pleasure."

Now then, Billy, you have a giant choice staring you in the face:   You can either cling to you unscriptural 'free-will' or you can BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURE THAT I JUST PRESENTED TO YOU!?!  "I WILL DO..." is God's answer. How does God declare the end from the beginning? "I WILL DO..."  How is God sure that what He has prophesied will happen? "I WILL DO..." Would you like more proof? There is more:

"Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have SPOKEN IT [As in all prophecies! As is "God our Saviour Who WILL HAVE ALL MANKIND TO BE SAVED..." I Tim. 2:4!][now then, once God has 'spoken it' does it all come about by and through the 'free wills' of billions of people?  Hardly], I WILL BRING IT TO PASS; [still having doubts, Billy? Continue...]; I have PURPOSED it, [But since all men supposedly have a 'free will' it doesn't really have to happen that way, does it?], I [that's God, not man's free will] WILL ALSO DO IT" (Ver. 11)!

We have just read that God causes EVERYTHING to happen as He has counsel, pleased, spoken, and purposed. EVERYTHING!!! Everything from the beginning to everything at the end.  Everything from ancient times to everything YET TO HAPPEN. Let me reiterate, Billy. Everything that happens, happens NOT by the 'free will' choices of men, but BY GOD. 

"MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND..."

"I WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE." 

"I HAVE SPOKEN..."

"I WILL ALSO BRING IT TO PASS..."

"I HAVE PURPOSED IT..."

"I WILL ALSO DO IT..." 

"FOR of him, AND through him, AND to him, ARE ALL THINGS:  to Whom be glory for ever. Amen. (Rom. 11:36) 

"...according to the PURPOSE OF HIM Who WORKETH ALL THINGS [How? By man's free will?] after the counsel OF HIS OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:11 second half).

And many more such Scriptures, Billy--SCRIPTURES, not the stupid wisdom of mankind.  It is blasphemy to read all of these Scriptures and then teach that things happen or don't happen through man's 'free will.' That is not only nonsense, foolishness, and Unscriptural, it is evil.

To be sure, man has a will. That it is "free" to choose anything other than what God has already determined WILL BE, is totally unscriptural: 

"For it is GOD which worketh in you TO WILL and to do of his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

God  may not cause all men to eat grass as an ox before acknowledging that it is GOD that causes all to come about and not man's fabled free will:   

"And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured Him that liveth for ever, Whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and His kingdom is from generation to generation: 

And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and He DOETH ACCORDING TO HIS WILL in the army of heaven, and AMONG THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH:  and NONE can stay His hand, or say unto Him, What doest thou?" (Dan. 4:34-35).

"Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature [mankind] more than the Creator, Who is blessed for ever. Amen" (Rom. 1:25).

Human 'free will' is the epitome, the apex, the zenith of SECULAR HUMANISM! Man attributed to HIMSELF a power (free will) that is GREATER than the very WILL OF GOD, inasmuch has man supposedly can THWART the very will of God through his fabled 'free will."

Free will is the VERY GOD of secular humanism AND Christian humanism! This my friend, is both idolatry and blasphemy!  Maybe more will need to be turned into animals before they acknowledge Who it is that rules in the heavens and all the inhabitants of the earth.

My prayer, Billy, is that you will see the foolishness and evil of this human "idol of the heart" and give it up. It is a humbling experience to come to really know and acknowledge that God is in complete control of all men's lives, but when we do, we would never again have it any other way! 

Sincerely,

Ray
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[ciy]

Sorry Sorin, I have done a fair amount of oil painting landscapes and such that this analogy makes great sense to me.  

Let me just try one more thing.  I am not boasting or holier-than-thouing just giving examples that I meditate on to keep a grasp on God's sovereignty versus our free will.  

Not only did God cause Pharoah to continue to hold the Israelites in Egypt, he also made every circumstance fall exactly in to place that when he did let them go, which was at the exact perfect time, He caused by circumstances (causes) the Israelites to go through the Red Sea.  He knew it was going to happen and He caused it to happen.  The Israelites were caused to choose to go through the Red Sea.  They could not decide to be airlifted out, bused out, or beamed out.  Those were not part of the choices that God had given them.  They could die or flee through the Red Sea and God through hardening hearts, softening hearts, causing thoughts, causing certain people to be in certain places, causing storms, winds and rains made it where the Israelites chose to go through the Red Sea.  They actually could not have done anything else.  

I realize I may not communicate this well but it helps me and I thought it may help you see God's sovereignty and that there is no free will.  I will take leave on this now.  Hope this causes a ray of light on the subject.  
God is Great.
CIY

[Sorin]

Ray said: "Now then, Billy, you have a giant choice staring you in the face:   You can either cling to you unscriptural 'free-will' or you can BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURE THAT I JUST PRESENTED TO YOU!?! "

Actually, if Billy does not have a free will, and can not make any uncaused choices, then no, he can not choose to eighter 'cling unto his unscriptural 'free-will' or choose to believe that scripture that Ray just presented to him. Because that would be a 'free choice' you see.

Ray is still putting God in the present causing things to happen according to His will, as opposed to God knowing Peter would deny Christ because He is also in the future and
foresaw it, God had to make, cause Peter to deny him. Therefore Peter didn't really deny him, he just had no choice but to deny him. You see?

If that's the case, and we can't make any uncaused choices, we don't have free thought, then of what use is our mind? I get the law of cause and effect, but that's for brainless things, that just stand there and when there's a cause the effect follows. Like a window for example, it just stays there and does nothing, until a rock is thrown through it then it shatters. Are we just like that window, that can't even think a thought, or move our pinky finger without a cause? Is every movement we make an effect of some cause?

[hebrewroots98]

This is meat indeed!  The only thing that I can add is the fact that it is very arrogant for a weak human being to think that they can WILL themselves into an eternal place (Heaven or Hell).    ONLY GOD has the ability/power/understanding to do that (to put someone somwhere for an eternity).  (And being that there is no hell, He is in charge of ensuring everyones' eternal home) The 'free willers' are 'playing as tho they are God' to literally think that they can think themselves in to a place that they have not seen before (and that is a sin within itself to have this idol of the heart of thinking that a human has this kind of power within them; plus, on top of that sin is the sin in believing that there is a hell for them to send themselves to.    (I know, I have fianlly been delivered from my own deceptive beleifs concerning this.)  Praise God!

[sj]

Sorin,

A wise member of the forum once told me "in the final analysis, whether we have Free Will or not, we must live as if we have it"...

The more I meditate on this subject, the less I am even able to consider that man has a free will. Look at creation, God not only created EVERYTHING, but He also created each tiny atom and molecule that makes up everything.

Is the human mind any different? God has created us with the miraculous abilitiy to learn from our different experiences in life, but He has also created HOW we will experience them.

To attempt to prove that we the creation could create even an origianal though independent of the creator goes against the scriptures. THERE WAS NOT ANYTHING MADE THAT WAS MADE WITHOUT HIM! (John 1:1-3)

God created me. He created my physical, mental and spiritual being. He created how these 3 would interact. He created the feelings that I would have and what causes them to react differently in various degree in various situations and enviroments.

An everyday example is our taste buds... I've heard it stated many times that our taste buds change every seven years... while I cannot testify to that exact time, I can say that my tastes have changed as I have gotten older, not by my own free choice, but by how my body was created.

We don't have to see it the same way, sorin. In God's time we will both understand the truth and I'm sure both of us will be suprised at how far we were from how truly great His plan for us really is.

God's Peace.
Josh

[ciy]

Sorin, you are on the right trail keep pondering what you are saying.  You said:

"God had to make, cause Peter to deny him. Therefore Peter didn't really deny him, he just had no choice but to deny him. You see?
If that's the case, and we can't make any uncaused choices"

We have never made any uncaused choices.  If I offer you tea or coffee, you do not make an uncaused choice.  You select one or the other depending on prior tasting, your mood, the time of day, your physical condition, the temperature, etc.  all of these factors cause you to decide one way or the other. We always choose because of some "cause" or circumstance in order to receive the desired effect which makes your choice not free but depending on the desired effect.  God hardened Pharoah's heart so that he would make a choice that would give Pharoah the desires of his heart.  Pretty neat.  "Delight yourself in the Lord and HE WILL give you the DESIRES of YOUR HEART"
Actually pretty amazing.  God is something.
CIY

[gmik]

We make our choices based on what CIY mentioned, also our culture, ethnicity, family upbringing and all sorts of things that God puts in our life. Then based on the condition of our HEARTS, and all the caused events we make a "decision".  We weigh things out, list the pros & cons, preferences, and all the other things (using our brain) and we make our choice.  If it turns out good then it was the path God wanted, if it is a lousy decision, that shows us the idols of our hearts, we still need lessons to learn, but still the lousy choice was God's path for our journey too.  The choices we make shows US our spiritual development, it shows us how active the beast still is.

Do I want tea or coffee---no free will here, all based on conditions right now and preferences from the past, all caused by God.

Do I want to retire or keep working---I'd think about it, get advice, list the pros & cons, do a money crunch, ask God to be willing to hear Him, seek scripture, be out of known sins, and know that the decision I make is God leading me and directing my path-for good or bad..God is working no matter which way "I" choose.

This is starting to sink in for me.  Good thread folks.

love,
gena

[hebrewroots98]

I  just reread my post above and incase you were wondering if I had intended to direct that statement about being 'arrogant' to any on this thread; well, I was not .  I was thinking of the still unlearned in the world; not anyone here.

just wanted to clear that up

[Pax Vobiscum]

Sorin, you are on the right trail keep pondering what you are saying.  You said:

"God had to make, cause Peter to deny him. Therefore Peter didn't really deny him, he just had no choice but to deny him. You see?
If that's the case, and we can't make any uncaused choices"

CIY

This is exactly why I started the other thread:  If Judas had no choice but to betray Jesus, how could it be better that he was never born?

Just snoopin'...

Peace

[Kat]

Hi Sorin,

It is true that God even controls our thoughts, but that does not make us mindless.  We do go through the emotions, and have the memories from our experience.  Because these things that God causes us to go through, we learn, and we build character.  It is this experience (individual and unique to all ) that God is giving us, even the bad things are necessary, so when He saves us, we will all have our own unique personality. 

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Here is another email from Ray that is very good.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1493.0.html

Dear Charles:
As these are matters of the spirit, only God can ultimately help you to understand. I will, however, attempt to point you in the right direction.
 
I realize that almost all people when dealing with this matter of free will, unknowingly use words that are not accurate and often defamitory in trying to rectify God's works in their minds.  We cannot force God's ways in to OUR WAYS.
Yet we have all been guilty of trying to do this most of our lives.  God plainly speaks at times and at others He speaks in mysteries. Here is a plain statement from God that explains the mystrious ones:  "For My thought ARE NOT your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, says the Lord.  For as the heavens are higher than the earth, SO [in like manner] are My ways HIGHER than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts"  (Isa. 55:8-9).
 
Now there IS the answer, yet we will not accept that answer because we don't understand that answer.  Why then do you and most of the world have a problem with God and His operation of things, and I don't?  Why do you use the "CONTRADICTION" and I don't.  Is there any way to bridge this dichotomy of God's thoughts and our thoughts?  Yes there is:  "Let this MIND BE IN Y-O-U, which was also in Christ Jesus..."  (Phil. 2:5).
 
Without the mind of God, we will never understand the spiritual things of God.  They will ALWAYS seem like "foolishness" to the carnal mind. "But the natural man receives NOT the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED"  (I Cor. 2:14).
 
As it is absolutely Scripturally true that man has no free will, and therefore is always subject to the higther powers that be, when people begin to see this truth, they often balk at it and feel that God is unfair and that man is being judged for things that God MADE HIM DO AGAINST HIS WILL.  When in reality, NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH!!
 
Most of the human race has always believed that it possesses "free will."  And so as long as any man believes this falsehood, he is operating in his own little world with absolutely no grudge against God for his personal decisions.  But when he begins to see that he has no free will, he then does begin to think that he has a justifiable grudge against God for MAKING HIM SIN.  He was wrong when he thought that he had free will, and he is just as wrong when he thinks that the only alternative is that God MAKES HIM SIN AGAINST HIS OWN WILL.
 
I have stated many times that God DOES NOT MAKE OR FORCE ANYONE TO SIN AGAINST HIS OWN WILL--MAN DESIRES TO SIN, WANTS TO SIN, AND THEREFORE VOLUNTEERS TO SIN.  God did not FORCE or MAKE Eve eat of the forbidden fruit. Her own DESIRES caused her to lust and eat of the forbidden fruit.
And so the real question is: "Does God have the right to make mankind subject to the desires of their own heart?"  Think about it, as I have, for a few thousand hours, and maybe God will grant to you the spiritual understanding of this matter.
 
Hundreds of totally deceived and spiritually blind Christians have told me that: "God does not want robots to love Him--He desires people to love Him by their OWN FREE WILL."  Oh really?  And can the carnal mind indeed love God by its own nature; its own heart; its own desires?  NO IT CAN'T.  And so the very thing that Christians demand as necessary for our love for God to be genuine, is the very thing that totally disqualifies it from being genuine.  The natural mind is totally incapable of  loving God:  "For the carnal mind is enmity [deep-seated HATRED] AGAINST GOD..." (Rom. 8:7).
 
It all starts with God, not with us:  "We love Him [God] because He FIRST LOVED US"  (I John 4:19).
 
God created mankind spiritually WEAK--subject to the lusts and sins of his own heart, so that man will learn that he CANNOT love God first;  he cannot obey spiritual laws and commandments;  he cannot please God;  he cannot accomplish anything of lasting value through his wicked and deceitful heart. (Jer. 17:9).  And therefore God's ways will justify His means.  The rewards and the blessings are not even to be compared with the glory that God is creating in the human race (Rom. 8:18).
 
And so here is the answer to your question:
 
BEFORE spiritual conversion man FALSELY THINKS that he has free will and is for all intent and purpose a god unto himself.
 
AFTER spiritual conversion man will be eternally thankful that God never gave us such a foolish concept as "free will," or he would never ever reach the marvelous heights of power and glory that God has in mind for him.
 
And presently, you and some few others, are in between these two extremes of human understanding. I will pray for God to grand to you a "spirit of wisdom" so that you will comprehend and apprehend the marvelous and mysterious working of our God.
God be with you,
Ray
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Sorin]

Sorin, you are on the right trail keep pondering what you are saying.  You said:

"God had to make, cause Peter to deny him. Therefore Peter didn't really deny him, he just had no choice but to deny him. You see?
If that's the case, and we can't make any uncaused choices"

CIY

This is exactly why I started the other thread:  If Judas had no choice but to betray Jesus, how could it be better that he was never born?

Just snoopin'...

Peace

Hi Pax,

Well that was Jesus' human nature/side talking. Just like 'if it be possible, let this cup pass' of course Jesus' human side didn't want to get crucified. Who wants to get crucified? I sure as heck don't. But Jesus' greatest desire was to do his Father's Will. So yes, it would have been better for Jesus if judas had not been born [or anybody else to do what Judas did] but it was nonetheless necessary.

That's the way I see it.
Sorin

[Sorin]

Kat,

Thanks for putting in the time, effort, and energy required to dig up old email responses and posting them here. This last one, as well as people's replies, helps alot.
This whole 'free will' or lack there of concept has been quite difficult to make sense of, and or fully undertand. I think I need to do more pondering and less babbling... lol
Put in my 'thousands of hours' hehe.

Take care,
Sorin