Commen Logic vs. "Free Will"

[Sorin]

Hey Sorin,

If its any comfort i've had all these thoughts about free will myself, but i read something someone wrote about if God knows what we will do from seeing the future then He's not all knowing He learned something he didnt know by seeing in the future. hope that made sense and not muddy the water more.

rj

Hi RJ,

Yes, that is comforting to know that I'm not the only one who has/had these thoughts about free will. Hmmm.... you make a valid point. I guess I didn't look at it like that earlier.

Take care,
Sorin

[gmik]

  " thousands of hours"

We forgot that one on the other thread.

gena

[Martymonster]

God refers to us as children.

now, children are idiots, I'm not being unkind, that's just the way it is, infact that's the way God meant for them to be, it's a parable of us even as adults.

now, question!

would any resposible, loving parent give the five year old child a pistol or a hand grenade?

No way in a million years I hear you say!


Question.

would a loving heavenly Father give His children freewill to drestroy themselves?

No!

Why?

Because we to are idiots and we can't be trusted with such a thing, Christ doesn't refer to us as sheep for nothing, do you have any idea how dumb sheep are?





Martinez.

[ciy]

Martinez, great stuff.  Gena and Kat all good encouragement.  Sorin you are right on about meditating.  Wisdom has been added to you and us today.
CIY

[Joey Porter]

Oops, I didn't realize there were two "free will" threads going.  This is the same post I made in the other one, dealing with what I've been thinking about the whole "Free will" debate lately:

One of the most common arguments I hear in favor of free will is the idea that God has to give us a "free will" so that we can genuinely choose to love and obey Him, otherwise it wouldn't be true love and obedience.  Or that God loves us so much that He gave us a "free will" to choose whether or not to love Him.  The idea is supposedly that God would somehow not be truly satisfied with His creation unless His creation possessed a free will of whether or not to choose Him.

But there is a logical, opposing view to this.  The scriptures speak of God being the potter, and us being the clay.  The question that should be asked is this: 

Would an artist somehow feel less satisfied about his work if his work didn't take on its own shape and form?  I do a little bit of drawing now and again.  I have never once finished a drawing and thought to myself "Ya know, I am just not happy with this work because it turned out just how I wanted it to by my own hand.  I would rather the drawing just take on its own form, then I could genuinely be happy with it."

Now of course, I'm not perfect (like God) so my work never turns out just how I want it.  But His does.

Looking at the "free will" debate from the potter/clay perspective of the scriptures, isn't it foolish for anyone to suggest that God couldn't be completely satisfied with His creation if His creation didn't have free will?

[rrammfcitktturjsp]

To All,

  I am reading this thread.  I do not feel qualified to say anything but this.  I have learned a bit from this thread.  Keep it up and I will keep reading.

  Bless all of you.

  SIncerely,



  Anne C. McGuire

[CDJ]

Hi everyone,

I'm still in the infant stages of grasping the non-existance of free-will. Here, though, is one thing that popped up a while back, that I can't make sense of.

Someone accused God of lying and quoted these 2 verses...

2 Kings 22:20 "...(Huldah speaks)Therefore I will gather you to your fathers, and you will be buried in peace..."

2 Kings 23:29 "...but Neco faced him and killed him at Megiddo..."

After looking into it, I found this...

2 Chronicles 35:20-22 "...After all this, when Josiah had set the temple in order, Neco king of Egypt went up to fight at Carchemish on the Euphrates, and Josiah marched out to meet him in battle. But Neco sent messengers to him, saying, "What quarrel is there between you and me, O king of Judah? It is not you I am attacking at this time, but the house with which I am at war. God has told me to hurry; so stop opposing God, who is with me, or he will destroy you. Josiah, however, would not turn away from him, but disguised himself to engage him in battle. He would not listen to what Neco had said at God's command but went to fight him on the plain of Megiddo ..."

Plain and simple. Well, to me, that settled the answer, but this was before I've come to learn about free-will and God's sovereignity. What exactly happened here between God and Josiah? Neco did say that there was no quarrel between them, so one could then say that there was peace between them. Josiah didn't have a quarrel with anyone, but still died in war.

Can anyone help here?

Regards
CDJ

[gmik]

CDJ, Ha, I just read this whole thread w/o noticing the dates---from January!!

You present an interesting question on an obscure (to me) passage.

Lets get this out front again and see if we can get some answers out of the gang!!

[joyful1]

Hi Kat--
I just wanted to re-iterate what Sorin mentioned; thanks for the work you've put into digging up these emails!!! The increasing amount of emails and material posted on Ray's site and here at the forum is a wonderful blessing.....if you can find what you're looking for!
thanks again!
Joyce

[hebrewroots98]

Gena,
You said that perfectly! ...and it IS JUST THAT SIMPLE....thanks

[CDJ]

Hi gmik,

I'll place it under a new topic - it does sound a bit obscure, but I believe there is a bigger spiritual understanding here - I just can't see it yet...