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Author Topic: inward/outward man  (Read 2597 times)

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rocky

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inward/outward man
« on: January 18, 2007, 10:44:27 PM »

Rom 7:22  for I delight in the law of God according to the inward man,

Rom 7:23  and I behold another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of the sin that is in my members.


I have always thought these verses describe followers of Christ, and did not apply to mankind in general.  But i wonder if that is true.  Do we all (all humans) have the mind of Christ written in our hearts??  But because of the law of sin and death in our members; we are unable to access and appropriate it. 

Every effort to release the mind of Christ in us, leads to failure as outlined in Romans 7.



Rom 2:14  For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Rom 2:15  Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

and for jews:

Rom 1:19  Because that which may be [u]known of God is manifest in them[/u]; for God hath showed it unto them.

Rom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Rom 1:21  Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Rom 1:23  And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Rom 1:28  And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;


Seems like deep within all of us, is the law of God, which we know is Holy.  The law of God is summed up as Love.  God is love.   

Rom 7:12  Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

The law was ordained for life, but in humans, does the opposite; works death.

Rom 7:10  and the command that is for life, this was found by me for death;


But because of our flesh condition, God gave us over to a reprobate mind.  The carnal mind. 


Rom 7:14  For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.  The carnal mind can not submit to the law of God, love. 



So we are all without excuse.  We all know the law of God written on our hearts, but because of the flesh/carnal mind; we are guaranteed to fail. 


Thank God for Jesus Christ.  end of Romans 7. 


 I think that is why we are told to "work out" our salvation rather than "work in or for" our salvation.  Salvation is already there, but it has to be released, and that only is through death.  Death of the carnal mind/flesh.    When released, Love abounds. 


By grace, we have the flesh destroyed/burned now or later. 



I find it interesting the wrath of God is not against men themselves, but "against all ungodliness and unrighteousness" of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;


So basically in a nutshell, is Romans 7 describing followers of Christ, or all mankind????



 




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YellowStone

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Re: inward/outward man
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2007, 11:46:36 PM »

Rocky wrote in part:

I have always thought these verses describe followers of Christ, and did not apply to mankind in general. But i wonder if that is true. Do we all (all humans) have the mind of Christ written in our hearts?? But because of the law of sin and death in our members; we are unable to access and appropriate it.

Every effort to release the mind of Christ in us, leads to failure as outlined in Romans 7.

......................

I find it interesting the wrath of God is not against men themselves, but "against all ungodliness and unrighteousness" of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

So basically in a nutshell, is Romans 7 describing followers of Christ, or all mankind?


Rocky, you are really onto something here. May I answer your question with a question? Who today feels that they are as Spiritual or more so than Paul? I will be honest, I do not, yet even Paul recognized that his inner being that he was held captive of his carnal human nature.

Rom 7:22
  • for I delight in the law of God according to the inward man,

Rom 7:23
  • and I behold another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of the sin that is in my members.

As much as I would like to think I am righteous and a follower of Christ, I know I fall way short of the mark. I know exactly how Paul felt when he wrote these words.

Rom 7:14-21
  • 14. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
  • 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
  • 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good.
  • 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
  • 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
  • 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
  • 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
  • 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.


Without a doubt, Paul was talking about all of man-kind, followers of Christ included. How could it not, for evil is ever present and we are yet carnal.

What do you think?

Love,
Darren
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DWIGHT

  • Guest
Re: inward/outward man
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2007, 12:01:04 AM »

Hi Rocky,

I think you've just hit on one of the most important subjects in the entire Scriptures. The Old Testament gives us the perfect example of Christ in man, that is the tabernacle. It had three areas; the outer court, the inner court and the holiest of all. In these three areas the priests were able to go only into two of them; the outer court and the inner court. Only the high priest was allowed to go into the holiest of all and then only once a year. The only place God would dwell in was the holiest of all. Anybody besides the high priest that would go in would die.

So man is a type of the Old Testament tabernacle. He has a body(flesh), soul(heart, mind and will(choice), and spirit(the inward man). The tabernacle was under the law of Moses, this is the law in my members(flesh) warring against the law of my mind(soul) and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin that is in my flesh. And I know that in my flesh dwelleth no good thing.

Brother, the war is in our soul. Satan(no good thing) is in our flesh and God is in our spirit. Both want our soul, both want our hearts and our minds. Well, we know who has already won and if we would live in our spirit we would know too. Its like we have two hearts and two minds because sometimes we think and feel sinful things and sometimes we think and feel spiritual things. Thats because the natural man(our flesh) is carnal and the inward man(our spirit) is spiritual. And both are tearing at us(our soul).

Mankind does not have this problem yet because their spirit has not been made alive by the Spirit of God. Their nature is still sinful and yet the law of Moses, which is the sentence of death, is written in their hearts to condem them.

I believe that as God deals with us by working in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure, that He slowly is transforming us into His image. The more He transforms us the more our hearts and minds become just like Him.

There is so much more to this that is so facinating and wonderful, that I wish we could all see clearer and clearer. And I believe that God is beginning to reveal more of Himself to us day by day. Maybe some of the brothers and sisters could help us a little.

In His amazing grace,

Dwight
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rocky

  • Guest
Re: inward/outward man
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2007, 01:39:49 AM »

Hi Rocky,

I think you've just hit on one of the most important subjects in the entire Scriptures. The Old Testament gives us the perfect example of Christ in man, that is the tabernacle. It had three areas; the outer court, the inner court and the holiest of all. In these three areas the priests were able to go only into two of them; the outer court and the inner court. Only the high priest was allowed to go into the holiest of all and then only once a year. The only place God would dwell in was the holiest of all. Anybody besides the high priest that would go in would die.

So man is a type of the Old Testament tabernacle. He has a body(flesh), soul(heart, mind and will(choice), and spirit(the inward man). The tabernacle was under the law of Moses, this is the law in my members(flesh) warring against the law of my mind(soul) and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin that is in my flesh. And I know that in my flesh dwelleth no good thing.

Brother, the war is in our soul. Satan(no good thing) is in our flesh and God is in our spirit. Both want our soul, both want our hearts and our minds. Well, we know who has already won and if we would live in our spirit we would know too. Its like we have two hearts and two minds because sometimes we think and feel sinful things and sometimes we think and feel spiritual things. Thats because the natural man(our flesh) is carnal and the inward man(our spirit) is spiritual. And both are tearing at us(our soul).

Mankind does not have this problem yet because their spirit has not been made alive by the Spirit of God. Their nature is still sinful and yet the law of Moses, which is the sentence of death, is written in their hearts to condem them.

I believe that as God deals with us by working in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure, that He slowly is transforming us into His image. The more He transforms us the more our hearts and minds become just like Him.

There is so much more to this that is so facinating and wonderful, that I wish we could all see clearer and clearer. And I believe that God is beginning to reveal more of Himself to us day by day. Maybe some of the brothers and sisters could help us a little.

In His amazing grace,

Dwight


thanks Darren and Dwight. Dwight wondering how u see this verse, seems to me it is talkign about carnal man.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Rom 2:15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

I'm thinking, the law, or tree of knowldege of good and evil is written on all our hearts.  But knowledge provides no power source.  Only the regenerating power of the spirit of Christ, the tree of life can provide the power.  This spirit destroyes the old/evil, and releases the good, love.   
« Last Edit: January 19, 2007, 10:28:52 AM by rocky »
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: inward/outward man
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2007, 06:10:10 PM »


Hi Rocky,

The inner man in Rom. 7: 22 would be the soul or conscience of man.

This is a email from Ray about the spirit and soul.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1594.0.html ------------------------

Every person (and animal) has a "spirit."  There is no life without spirit. At death OUR spirit return to our God Who gave it to us. Spirit does not die. But, spirit has no consciencousness of its own. It must be united with a body. That is why there is coming a Resurrection of the DEAD. Adam's body had the spirit of God breathed into it and then Adam became a LIVING SOUL.  God's Holy Spirit is His Spirit of Holiness which imparts spiritual knowledge and spiritual character to those who possess it. The wicked and unbelievers have a spirit that keeps them alive, but they have no spiritual perception of spiritual truths because they do not possess the Holy Spirit of God living in us through Jesus Christ our Lord. ETc. Sorry, but it would take days to answer your question in detail.

God be with you,

Ray
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quote
But i wonder if that is true. Do we all (all humans) have the mind of Christ written in our hearts??

1Cor 2:12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.
v.13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
v.14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
v.15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
v.16 "For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

So as you see we receive the Spirit of Christ, which is the mind of Christ when He chooses us. The Spirit did not come to any man until Pentecost.

Joh 7:39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Joh 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

Without the Spirit of God, the carnal man cannot receive the things of the Spirit.

Gen 6:5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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DWIGHT

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Re: inward/outward man
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2007, 07:10:27 PM »

Thanks Kat,

Couldn't have said it better!

Dwight
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rocky

  • Guest
Re: inward/outward man
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2007, 07:25:28 PM »


Hi Rocky,

The inner man in Rom. 7: 22 would be the soul or conscience of man.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat



thanks Kat, but interstingly; an animal also is a soul, but doesn't have the "inner man" in his conscience, or at least i don't think so. I'm thinking the inner man is the same thing as the eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil that gives us this inner man.

Also, I take it you think Romans 7 is paul referring to himself before conversion, if the inward man is the soul?? 

interesting. 

 
« Last Edit: January 19, 2007, 07:32:27 PM by rocky »
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: inward/outward man
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2007, 01:31:01 AM »

Hi Rocky,

Rom 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind I myself serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Before we receive the Spirit of Christ indwelling, we are a slave to sin, we serve the law of sin.

Rom 7:6  But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.

As long as we are in the flesh we will have the pull of sin, but it does not rule us, if we have the Spirit indwelling, the law of God then rules in us.

This email from Ray has a good explanation about the law of the inner man.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=195.msg1528#msg1528 -law of mistakes ---

 Explain?
on: March 26, 2006, 02:18:07 PM      

To simplify theological words and terms, I sometimes present them with vanacular words and common terms.  Hence to make "the law of sin and death" more understandalbe in every day life, I called it "the law of mistakes"--sin is defined as a mistake or to miss a mark. And the "law of the Spirit of LIfe" I called "the law of perfection." (See Rom. 8:2). When God calls us out of Babylon, He frees us from the law of sin and death by teaching us the truth and by enabling us to obey these truths. We make less  MISTAKES, and we progress toward PERFECTION--"The High Calling in Christ Jesus" (Phil. 3:13).

God be with you,
Ray
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rom 7:21  So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.
Rom 7:22  For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,

Here you can see Paul is aware of his flesh, tho he has the law of God (indwelling Spirit), he still feels the pull of the flesh.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat


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