SAVED

[Deborah-Leigh]

Rocky

...to build on where Kat left off.........

1 John 3:2 Beloved, we are even here and now God's children; it is not yet disclosed, made clear what we shall be hereafter, but we know that when He comes and is manifested, we shall as God's children resemble and be like Him, for we shall see Him just as He really is.

"That which is born of the Spirit is spirit" also fits as quoted in Kats post.

Peace to all

Arcturus

[Deborah-Leigh]

HIS words to your heart Lisa

Peace with you

Arcturus

[Robin]

OT SERVANTS – In Judgment with the world are those who RECEIVE   their reward and are raised to the exaltation and honour of God among men having been tried and found faithful, are raised to perfection as men. "You shall see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the Kingdom of God" Perfected men under direction of unseen Spiritual members of God's Kingdom establish a perfect Government among men. Heb 3  5,6 2nd Resurrection Saints of God who belong to God's House. These inherit the earth.

Hi Arcturus,

Revelation 20 seems to say that the elect will be raised in the first resurrection with spiritual bodies and the rest of the dead do not come back to life until the 2nd resurrection at the end of the 1000 years. There will be those who are still alive at Christ's return who will still have bodies of flesh, but all the rest will be raised from the dead with spiritual bodies

Revelation 20:4
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 20:3-5 (in Context) Revelation 20 (Whole Chapter)
Revelation 20:5
(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

Then it seems to say that the judgment takes place at the 2nd resurrection of all others. I believed that all in the 2nd resurrection were also raised with spiritual bodies and no one was raised in bodies of flesh

Revelation 20:11
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


Maybe I am misunderstanding.

Thanks,
MG

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello MG

I believe that Rev 20 : 5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" is not found in the oldest and most reliable Greek MSS, the Sinaitic, Vatican nos 1209 and 1160 nor the Syriac MS.

This makes all the difference! According to the spurious version that is considered to have crept into the text by accident in the fifth century, because no MS of earlier date either Greek or Syriac contains this clause, it is considered likely that this statement was at first merely a marginal comment that later was copied into the body of the scriptures by a subsequent transcriber who failed to note the difference between the text and the comments.

Consequently, only AFTER the millennial age would it be true to say that the rest of the dead will not live again until AFTER the thousand years of restitution and blessing are accomplished.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[Robin]

Thank you for your quick reply Arcturus.

I will have to give it more thought and ask God for understanding.

Thanks,
MG

[Deborah-Leigh]

MG I appreciate and respect what you say. I have no problem with that as I too am still pondering and reflecting on this very vast subject and I   am grateful for the opportunity to put my thoughts, pondering and questions into writing.

My question is if the "rest of the dead" only are raised for the 2nd death, then some kind of judgment would have had to have taken place before they are raised back to life? This  surely can not be because 1 Cor 3 : 13 The work of each one will become plainly, openly known.....

Judgment will not take place in secret and it certainly doesn't take place without the one to be evaluated present before the throne of judgment with their work becoming plainly and openly known as stated in 1 Cor 3 : 13. 

Heb 9 : 27 And just as it is appointed for all men once to die, and after that the certain judgement....

Does it meant that  we are appointed once to die and after..AFTER... what? AFTER death....What comes after death? Judgment. Does Judgment happen while you are dead or AFTER death. Which is it then?....Judgment happens after death at resurrection. Christ is the Resurrection and the life. Who else but Christ does anyone meet once they are raised up out of death unto judgment? Who but Christ is our judge? Who else is the resurrection?

Rev 20: 12 And I also saw the dead, great and small; they stood...THEY STOOD before the throne.....

Who but Christ is on the throne? Who is the Resurrection and the life? Christ. Where do the dead stand but in front of Christ the resurrection and the life surely?  After we die the next person we get to see is Jesus. That may be good for some      but real bad news for others.

1 Cor 3 : 14 If the work which any person has built on this Foundation any product of his efforts whatever survives this test, he will get his reward. 15. But if any person's work is burned up under the test, he will suffer the loss of it all, losing his reward, though he himself will be saved, but only as one who has passed through fire.

..... and standing before Christ some will receive a reward    and others will loose their reward    and be thrown into the LOF.

This leads me to think, subject to correction of course, that the millennial reign of Christ on earth does not take place in partition as a Heaven on Earth for a 1000 years before all Hell breaks loose for the wicked who are told to get up later and are only resurrected later to be sent to the LOF. That would imply that some kind of judgment had already taken place wouldn't it.?... It would mean that while we are dead we are judged fit for Christ or the LOF without having to go before Christ for Judgement or even having to give an account for every idol word or work we have done. It would mean that while we are dead we are judged either to wake to heaven on earth in a Millenium reign with Christ or later to wake up for the LOF.

May be I do not understand something here but, I do not believe that Christ is a covert judge that judges us while we sleep.  So for me the Millennial reign of Christ on His Throne takes place during the White Throne Judgment with Christ on HIS throne reigning supreme with His co-heirs administering judgment throughout the heavens and the earth and His appointed stewards ministering His Government throughout the Nations of the earth.

This can only begin to happen after Christ returns to the earth. For me He is not back yet. For some, He has already returned to them personally and individually. For me, He is still coming and I am still waiting and expecting and hoping in His return.  I know that there are some teachings that offer the opinion that there is going to be a great big sensual party on earth for a thousand years with all the good guys and then after the party the bad guys are going to get what is coming to them once they get their wake up call. For me that does not make any sense and I cannot find any scripture but many Churches who will teach this together with their rapture theories and Lazarus and the rich man teachings that they make fit their unscriptural heresies.



Peace to you

Arcturus 

[gmik]

This is so fascinating.  I can never get a handle on the "logistics" of GWT, LOF, 1st resur.,
1,000 year reign.

Are we sure there is a literal 1,000 year reign? If only the elect have risen to reign tht would mean that out of several billion people alive on the earth, none were the elect.  Since the elect have to die before they can resurrect.

Then do alll these billions alive and being "reigned upon" by Jesus and the chosen, have to die and then fairly quickly be risen again for the GWT? So then on Dec. 31 at 11:59 everyone dies on the planet and then the GWT begins at 12:00 so they all are vivified???

And of course satan is let loosed for a season,  When?? How does this fit in??

During the GWT what is everyone doing?? Are we in a queue waiting our turn??  How does that work?  Alpha order, birth by centuries, degree of meanness in a person??  I am being serious.  I don't obsess over this but when it comes up then I start wondering.

Or does EVERYONE who ever lived, died, and raised again all together get on their collective knees to praise the lambkin??  Or is it all done in a twinkling of the eye.  Or all spiritual and nothing physical.  if the lake of fire is Jesus and the elect then how long does that all take.  Where do the aions of aions fit in here??  Does Hitler, and Joe Dokes get aions of punishment or is it just one look in the lamb's eyes do it for us?? If Hitler has to spend aions to purge him, what does one do who may only need a short while or few lashes.

Thanks for letting me spout, I don't expect or need anyone to think they can explain this as it is deep and complex and may just be something to be taken by faith.  Of course I know tht God has this planned and it will work perfectly.

I am sure Revelations is "revealed" only as we can take it in.

Thanks for reading,
gena

[Robin]

I pulled some paragraphs out of the LOF 6 that relate to some of our discussion.


http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html

FIRST THE PHYSICAL AND THEN THE SPIRITUAL
TWO JUDGMENTS BY FIRE

Only two sections of Scripture speak of judging every man's work in fire. They are Revelation 20 and I Corinthians 3. Earlier in this series we covered many Scriptures showing that Judgment is on the House of God NOW (from the time of the Apostles until the return of Christ), and that there is coming a later judgment at the Great White Throne. All humanity and all angelic messengers will be judged in one of these two judgments by fire.
------------------------------------------
FIRST THE PHYSICAL AND THEN THE SPIRITUAL

"Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural [soulish, physical]; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual" (I Cor. 15:46).

But this is not what the church teaches. They teach that first came the natural, the soulish, the physical, and AFTERWARD will come A BETTER VERSION of the natural, the soulish, the physical! That is unscriptural nonsense. God is not building a better version of our physical bodies. We will be given SPIRITUAL BODIES:

"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differs from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; [Adam was destined to DIE from the time of his very creation:] "For the creation was made subject to vanity, not willing, but by reason of Him Who has subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself [this certainly includes Adam] also shall be delivered from the bondage of CORRUPTION..." Rom. 8:20-21. [Adam was created in the 'bondage of corruption']; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a SPIRITUAL BODY. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul [subject to death and corruption]; the last Adam was made a quickening SPIRIT [NOT subject to death or corruption]. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is SPIRITUAL" (I Cor. 15:42-46).

I repeat: "So also is the RESURRECTION of the dead ...it is sown a natural body; it is raised a SPIRITUAL body" (Verses 42 & 44). EVERYONE raised in the resurrection will be "SPIRITUAL." Are those in Rev. 20 not resurrected from the dead? Rev. 20:12 says, "And I saw the dead, small and great, STAND before God..." These peoples have been resurrected. Now just how the "dead" can also "stand" will be explained later. But nonetheless, these are all standing before God. They have been resurrected from the dead, and they now possess SPIRITUAL BODIES, because Paul tells us that in the resurrection people are raised with a spiritual body, and spiritual bodies CAN'T DIE, so all of mankind raised at the great white throne judgment will never ever pass out of existence again. Not even the SECOND death will destroy them—it will harm them, but it will not torture, destroy, or annihilate them.

Make no mistake about it, what God is creating is SPIRITUAL and eternal. But first He created the physical and the temporary. He has dealt with the physical and temporary in the past, and will get do so in the future, but the time will come when God will do away with physical things, and then all will be spiritual. There was an OLD Covenant and now there is a NEW Covenant. The first was based solely on the physical and temporary promises, whereas the second is based on SPIRITUAL AND PERMANENT promises!
---------------------------

So, is Sodom right now suffering in some fabled hell fires? NO. Is Jerusalem of old right now suffering in some fabled hell fires? NO. Will Sodom and Jerusalem be saved TOGETHER? YES, in the second resurrection, at the white throne judgment, in the lake of fire. The lake of divine spiritual fire will bring salvation to ALL THE NATIONS! "...but he himself [whomever of the billions of people purged in God's spiritual fire] shall be SAVED; yet so as BY [God's spiritual consuming] FIRE"! (I Cor. 3:15).
---------------------------
Remember that there are two administrations of God's purging fire: The first is on the House of God consisting of those whom God is calling to be overcomers and sons of God. The second will be at the second resurrection and white throne judgment in the lake of God's divine purging fire. All the children of the bondwoman, the Old Covenant, the Mother Whore with her harlot daughters, will one day be the children of Heavenly Jerusalem Above, which is the MOTHER OF US ALL!




This seems to tie in with what you said Arcturus about the dead being judged.

These peoples have been resurrected. Now just how the "dead" can also "stand" will be explained later. But nonetheless, these are all standing before God.

This seems to say that the house of God goes through judgment before death.

Remember that there are two administrations of God's purging fire: The first is on the House of God consisting of those whom God is calling to be overcomers and sons of God. The second will be at the second resurrection and white throne judgment in the lake of God's divine purging fire.

That's confusing when reading this scripture which you mentioned Arcturus.

Heb 9 : 27 And just as it is appointed for all men once to die, and after that the certain judgement...

In LOF 12 Ray says this

"And the SEA gave up the dead [spiritually dead people] which were in it..."

This is not a quote, but I think Ray said on one of the audio tapes that the elect are given a deposit of a little bit of life or something like that. I don't know where to find that again.

[Kat]

Hi Gena,

I understand your confusion, I think we all have ideas that we learned in the church, on this matter,
and it is difficult to purge our minds and just believe the scripture on this.

There are a few things I think I understand.  You were saying...

Are we sure there is a literal 1,000 year reign? If only the elect have risen to reign tht would mean that out of several billion people alive on the earth, none were the elect.  Since the elect have to die before they can resurrect.

I do not believe there will be billions of people on earth when Christ returns.  That was indicated in Ray's Towers article.  There will be a great slaughter before His return. 
This scripture is talking about Christ's return.

Mark 13:20  And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.

And as for the 1000 years, it is not literal.  It means it will take what ever amount of time it takes, from a day to a thousand years or more.

2Peter 3:8  But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The elect do not have to die, if they are alive at His appearing.

1Co 15:51  Behold! I tell you a mystery. WE shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

Concerning the Great White Throne Judgment, you have to look carefully at the scripture on this,
and still it is not real clear to me now.

Luk 13:28  There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you will see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves being thrust out.
Luk 13:29  And they will come from the east and the west, and from the north and the south, and will recline in the kingdom of God.
Luk 13:30  And behold, there are last ones which will be first, and there are first ones which will be last.

I think those who are weeping and gnashing teeth, are those after being cast into the Lake of fire and are still in judgment, this is their going throught the second death.

Rev 21:8  But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

So I would think the second death is those that came up in the GWT, were cast into the Lake of fire, and are then being purged and must die to self (second death).
There will be those who have been judged and are then in the kingdom ahead of others, I think that is what is being indicated in Luke 13:30 "...last ones which will be first, and there are first ones which will be last."
So it seems like people will be brought into the kingdom as soon as they are totally purged and spiritually ready, then they will be saved and enter the kingdom, as Luke 13:29 says they will be coming from all direction and as they are made ready, to then be changed to spirit and brought to enter the kingdom.

Well that's just what it seems like to me right now.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

This is so fascinating.  I can never get a handle on the "logistics" of GWT, LOF, 1st resur.,
1,000 year reign.

Are we sure there is a literal 1,000 year reign?

I believe as Ray teaches, that we should not take the Bible literally but that it is a parable.

If only the elect have risen to reign tht would mean that out of several billion people alive on the earth, none were the elect.  Since the elect have to die before they can resurrect.

I see your point G. After giving some time to pondering my own questions, I came up with the fact that the elect die faithful and the called do not. So that cancelled my thought that we are judged when we sleep to make that thought erroneous. There are those of us who are being judged NOW. When we die and once we awake, it will in to the spiritual body and all the others will be resurrected to their judgment at GWT. Now as to whether or not the first resurrection takes place ahead of the second resurrection I do not see this happening. I think this age of the millennium will be a process too not a once off wake up call for the elect and the called and lost.

Then do alll these billions alive and being "reigned upon" by Jesus and the chosen, have to die and then fairly quickly be risen again for the GWT?

I do not think so. I believe that there will be some alive who will not yet have died physically when Jesus returns. Why not?
So then on Dec. 31 at 11:59 everyone dies on the planet and then the GWT begins at 12:00 so they all are vivified???

Hee hee hee G....this digging can produce mud in my eyes too before I can expect to find the real treasure....

And of course satan is let loosed for a season,  When?? How does this fit in??

Right?

During the GWT what is everyone doing?? Are we in a queue waiting our turn??

You will appear at the High Court of the Universe at in one minute after resurrection!.....

How does that work?  Alpha order, birth by centuries, degree of meanness in a person??  I am being serious.

Oh I know you are being serious. These are serious questions! I believe that we have to discover the questions before we can appreciate the answers!

I don't obsess over this but when it comes up then I start wondering.'s   

Oh no! This is my passion. I love this subject and it consumes me....not to the degree that I leave my responsibilities I hope. God has given me a wonderful supportive husband who helps me keep my balance!

Or does EVERYONE who ever lived, died, and raised again all together get on their collective knees to praise the lambkin??

That's stretching it I think....even for you G!
Or is it all done in a twinkling of the eye.

Jesus does come like a thief in the night so to some that might be in a twinkling of an eye but I think the twinkling part is the change from death to resurrection. The change will be a snap. This reminds me of Ray's latest teaching on Death.

  Or all spiritual and nothing physical.

No. I do not think so. The meek will inherit the earth as in ....earth...but then again, is that symbolic? sorry, but we do have to explore every avenue of consideration!...even if it does seem to lead us back to square one! 

  if the lake of fire is Jesus and the elect then how long does that all take.  Where do the aions of aions fit in here??  Does Hitler, and Joe Dokes get aions of punishment or is it just one look in the lamb's eyes do it for us?? If Hitler has to spend aions to purge him, what does one do who may only need a short while or few lashes.

I believe you have something there. A few v/s many lashes indicating pain and duration of correction right?

Thanks for letting me spout,

Thanks for letting me spout back.

I don't expect or need anyone to think they can explain this as it is deep and complex and may just be something to be taken by faith.

I believe Ray could answer our struggles to understand with a long teaching that undoubtedly it would take to sort us out!

Of course I know tht God has this planned and it will work perfectly.

Amen to that

I am sure Revelations is "revealed" only as we can take it in.

I enjoyed our exchange. It cleared up a few things for me and left me with BIGGER questions but also a larger assurance that GOD can do ANYTHING for with God NOTHING is impossible! Phil 4 :13

Kat, MG and all on the thread, thank you for your valuable in put. It further shows the vastness of the territory we are exploring.

If you come up with any more pearls please post again!.... ...then we can spout some more

Peace to you

Arcturus