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Author Topic: Joy of the Angels/Messengers  (Read 10891 times)

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hillsbororiver

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Joy of the Angels/Messengers
« on: January 23, 2007, 06:20:26 PM »

There was a time when I thought I totally understood the following verses but as with just about everything else the past year or so I am seeing things in different ways. When Jesus spoke of the "angels in heaven rejoicing over every sinner who repents" is this in fact the reality of angelic beings having joy when God calls or chooses someone?

Or is He speaking of a time after the WTJ (Lake of Fire) when Sons and Daughters of God emerge purged of their carnal nature, completely converted? When contemplating the few stripes and the many stripes scripture seems to suggest some will be spending a longer time going through the refining Fire than others. Are the Angels/Messengers being spoken of actually the Elect? Is Jesus telling us of the joy experienced by the Elect as their Godly Family grows?

Luke 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Who among us in the flesh have no need of repentence? This is what is leading me to see this as happening in the next age.

Luke 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

The Angel/Messenger references seem to blur together sometimes. Do you see these verses actually describing 2 seperate events? 

Does anyone have any thoughts or insights here? All comments are more than welcome.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

 

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YellowStone

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Re: Joy of the Angels/Messengers
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2007, 08:14:37 PM »

Joe,

I for one have a great need for repentance and I see or know one who needs not the same.

I really feel that your question regarding the rejoicing of Angels over the repentance of one than 99 who need not, really has to do with people like us who have graciously been shown the light and led back hom ein very much the same way as the lost sheep in vs 5.

   Luke 15:3-10 
  • 3. And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
  • 4. What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
  • 5. And when he hath found [it], he layeth [it] on his shoulders, rejoicing.
  • 6. And when he cometh home, he calleth together [his] friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
  • 7. I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
  • 8. Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find [it]?
  • 9. And when she hath found [it], she calleth [her] friends and [her] neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.
  • 10. Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.


However; could or would anyone ever suggest that Angels and Messengers will not be rejoicing like never before when pure cleansed people free from the vices, ailments and pride that plague us today, begin walking out of the Lake of Fire.

If that is not cause for celebration then nothing is :)

Great post from a loved brother, Joe.

Love to you,
Darren
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rrammfcitktturjsp

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Re: Joy of the Angels/Messengers
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2007, 10:03:03 PM »

  For some odd reason I can only imagine them toasting one another becuase a sinner has come to repentance.  I can see them wandering about clapping eachother on the back and pretty much going Praise the Lord and Hallelujah.  I can see them talking enthused with the one who has come to repentance and talking with God.  I can see God with a smile on his face.  Oh man, how I wish that we could do the same and feel it on the level of those in heaven.  We can only get a little of the feeling right now here on earth.

  Looking forward to that day when I can go and run around the halls of heaven and rejoice in the presence of God for others.

  Sincerely,


  Anne C. McGuire
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Joey Porter

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Re: Joy of the Angels/Messengers
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2007, 10:42:31 PM »

I think these are probably a couple verses which we can apply a "living and active" principal to.  That is, to us in this age now - they apply to showing the contrast between the called and chosen.

The called are those who don't think they need to repent - because they haven't ''cleaned the inside of their dish,'' or ''removed the plank from their eye."  I think it also falls in line with what He said about the healthy not needing a doctor - but the sick do.  That would be - those who realize they're sick.  It also shows the contrasting attitudes of the pharisee and the tax collector.  God (and the angels) are more pleased with a man who says "Have mercy on me a sinner" than the man who says "I am healthy and don't need a doctor.''

Also, remember the part of the sheep parable in which Jesus leaves the 99 sheep on the hills (perhaps the hills represent their "high" and "lofty" places) to seek out and save the one who is astray. 

Of course, in the future age, there will be rejoicing every time someone "repents their way out of" the lake of fire - however that is precisely and specifically going to be accomplished, I am not enlightened yet.  But I believe the ''chosen'' will be key vessels in the process.

« Last Edit: January 24, 2007, 12:17:34 AM by Joey Porter »
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Joey Porter

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Re: Joy of the Angels/Messengers
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2007, 12:13:51 AM »

That verse 31 is defintitely very tricky in the grand scheme of this parable and the apparent called/chosen theme.

I wouldn't think that the older son represents the elect, just for the fact of the carnal fruits that he exhibits. His jealous and self righteous fruits match up moreso with the pharisee praying in the temple.  (That's not to say that the elect aren't susceptible to falling back into that mindset, but the elect will have certainly overcome such thinking by the time of the judgment.)

I have been thinking that the reason the father answers the son with "Child! thou, always, art, with me, and, all that is mine, is, thine" is to show the way that God will answer the "called" according to the multitude of the idols in his heart (Ezekiel 14, 2 Thess. ch 2).
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Kat

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Re: Joy of the Angels/Messengers
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2007, 01:30:03 AM »

Hi Joey,

I understand what you are saying, that has always been what I thought too.
But the parable of the workers in the vineyard have this same thing in it.

Mat 20:10  Now when those hired first came, they thought they would receive more, but each of them also received a denarius.
v.11  And on receiving it they grumbled at the master of the house,
v.12  saying, 'These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.'
v.13  But he replied to one of them, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius?

We know that the workers in the vineyard are the elect, in verse 08 they had already received their wages, and in verse 11, the workers grumbled.  This sounds a lot like the prodical son that became angry.
I'm not saying I'm right about this, I just noticed that this same type of reaction, to the ones coming in later is repeated in this other parable.
So I was just wondering about this.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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PKnowler

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Re: Joy of the Angels/Messengers
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2007, 01:34:03 PM »

Hi Joe,

   I want to give you my thoughts in response to your question. I believe there is joy in heaven over one sinner who repents because they were lost but now they're found! They were dead but now they are alive! Of course we all know that but I think that is what brings the angels joy. I don't think it is a further work that this scripture is talking about. For we know that He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it!

~Paula
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Joy of the Angels/Messengers
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2007, 05:32:59 PM »

 Hi Kat,

 I am understanding this a bit different but I make no claim as to having the final word or ultimate understanding. This is what I am seeing, this parable (Prodigal Son) is actually addressing the Jews (first = older son) then Gentiles (second = younger son) but also as the "men of old" Prophets being raised to see those who came after them (the Elect) as being rewarded first into the Kingdom.

 The Jews believe they have not strayed by following Mosaic Law under the First Covenant, the older son never strayed away from the (physical) duties he was given by his father but did he display or feel the (spiritual) love his father had for his younger brother, did the older brother truly appreciate all he was born into or did he feel as if he was somehow deserving of it? On the other hand the younger brother decided to go off on his own and through his journey of alienation and despair rediscovered how blessed he had been, then he repented for leaving "his first love," (his father) and the loving provisions his father had provided. When the younger son returned home he had a sense of humble appreciation that the older son could not fathom, who at this point loved (spiritual) his father more, the elder or the younger son? Who at this point would have more devotion?

 When the Prophets are raised from the grave and discover the Kingdom is now populated by "only those who came after" them, what might be their reaction? Remember being under the Old Covenant they are raised still with a carnal nature. At Judgement they may be making the same statement as the the workers in the vineyard who worked from sunrise only to see the later workers not only paid the same but PAID FIRST! Might this be the beginning of the Elect having a hand in bringing the Prophets into the Kingdom? Where God is showing them they have more yet to understand, just as the older son now has less understanding and appreciation (than his younger brother) of the depth of his father's love, and the blessings he has provided?     

 Look at the preceding verses to what you posted;


 Matthew 20

 1For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.

 2And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.

 3And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,

 4And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.

 5Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.

 6And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?

 7They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.

 8So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.

 9And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.

 10But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.

 11And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,

I would bet the later workers did not murmur one syllable, they had a great appreciation for what they received, the sunrise to sunset workers got what they were promised (Old Covenant) but it was those who came later who got a better (New Covenant) promise.

  Hebrews 8

 5Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

 6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.


 This has kind of veered off topic but you bring up an extremely interesting point which begs more study, I want to respond to some of the other posts here but time is not my friend at the moment.

 Thanks to all who responded I will be getting back to this as soon as I can.

 His Peace and Wisdom to you all,

 Joe




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hillsbororiver

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Re: Joy of the Angels/Messengers
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2007, 09:20:43 AM »


However; could or would anyone ever suggest that Angels and Messengers will not be rejoicing like never before when pure cleansed people free from the vices, ailments and pride that plague us today, begin walking out of the Lake of Fire.

If that is not cause for celebration then nothing is :)

Great post from a loved brother, Joe.

Love to you,
Darren

Hi Darren,

You are so right, can you just imagine the joy of seeing our loved ones (as well as all humanity) emerging perfect and immortal? What is even more incredible is that He will be providing unimaginable joy as well!

Isa 64:4  For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

1Co 2:9  But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

His Love and Peace to you Brother,

Joe
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Joy of the Angels/Messengers
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2007, 09:46:21 AM »

I think these are probably a couple verses which we can apply a "living and active" principal to.  That is, to us in this age now - they apply to showing the contrast between the called and chosen.

The called are those who don't think they need to repent - because they haven't ''cleaned the inside of their dish,'' or ''removed the plank from their eye."  I think it also falls in line with what He said about the healthy not needing a doctor - but the sick do.  That would be - those who realize they're sick.  It also shows the contrasting attitudes of the pharisee and the tax collector.  God (and the angels) are more pleased with a man who says "Have mercy on me a sinner" than the man who says "I am healthy and don't need a doctor.''

Also, remember the part of the sheep parable in which Jesus leaves the 99 sheep on the hills (perhaps the hills represent their "high" and "lofty" places) to seek out and save the one who is astray. 

Of course, in the future age, there will be rejoicing every time someone "repents their way out of" the lake of fire - however that is precisely and specifically going to be accomplished, I am not enlightened yet.  But I believe the ''chosen'' will be key vessels in the process.



Joey,

Thank you for another (valid) perspective of these verses, it continually amazes me the depths of the scriptures and how so many truths can be applied or are contained within them.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Joy of the Angels/Messengers
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2007, 09:56:55 AM »

Hi Joe,

   I want to give you my thoughts in response to your question. I believe there is joy in heaven over one sinner who repents because they were lost but now they're found! They were dead but now they are alive! Of course we all know that but I think that is what brings the angels joy. I don't think it is a further work that this scripture is talking about. For we know that He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it!

~Paula

Hi Paula,

I appreciate your response Sister, the reason I see this as pertaining more to a future age is that we are now continually repenting as we live in the flesh where when one repents and then emerges from the LOF they are perfect and immortal, a real cause for celebration.

Yes, I am sure there also is happiness when angels see one who is called then chosen endure in faith toward the ultimate goal of redemption/Sonship. Peter writes about the avid interest these angels have in what is transpiring in His elect.


1Pe 1:12  Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
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longhorn

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Re: Joy of the Angels/Messengers
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2007, 11:32:11 AM »

If angels rejoice when the "sons and daughters repent"  my gaurdian angel stays giddy.

Longhorn
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Joy of the Angels/Messengers
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2007, 04:06:11 PM »

Hello Joe

Your question : Is Jesus telling us of the joy experienced by the Elect as their Godly Family grows?

I am going to try to dig from another side comparing spiritual with spiritual perhaps. Look at Rev 6 : 9  When the Lamb broke open the fifth seal, I saw at the foot of the altar the souls  of those live whose lives had been sacrificed for adhering to the Word of God and for the testimony they had borne. 10 They CRIED IN A LOUD VOICE, O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long now before Yhou will sit in judgment and avenge our blood upon those who dwell on the earth? 11 Then they were each given a long and flowing and FESTIVE white robe and told to rest and wait patiently a little while longer, UNTIL THE NUMBER SHOULD BE COMPLETE OF THEIR FELLOW SERVANTS AND THEIR BRETHREN WHO WERE TO BE KILLED AS THEY THEMSELVES HAD BEEN.

Does this connect with the following perhaps?

Romans 11 : 25 Lest you be self-opinionated, wise in your own conceits, I do not want you to miss this hidden truth and mystery, brethren; a hardening insensibility has temporarily befallen a part of Israel, to LAST UNTIL THE FULL NUMBER OF THE INGATHERING OF THE GENTILES HAS COME IN.

If this be a correct match Joe, then it puts the resurrection in a twinkling of an eye into a Millennium time line that has a whole different process to the one we have been taught in Mystery Babylon don’t you think?

As Ray has said in one of his more recent e-mail responses, this is a huge subject that he plans to touch on in his instalment D coming soon.   8)   I am anxious to receive what he has dug up!

Also, I do not think humans become angels. We might share some properties of them in our spiritual bodies but our inheritance is not shared with the angels it is shared by Christ with the sons of men.

Peace be to you

Arcturus :)
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Joy of the Angels/Messengers
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2007, 08:05:02 PM »

Hello Arcturus,

I am also very much looking forward to Ray's "Part D" and I certainly agree the Millenium has been misinterpreted by the churches just like everything else that they hold to be true.

As far as Angels/Messengers go I did not mean to suggest that we become Angels, but rather that in scripture the root words for Angels/Messengers are virtually the same. Although we are told we will share some of the same attributes as Angels I do not see that we are transformed into them, so far I see that we are a unique and seperate creation.

Here are a few examples how scripture seems to be ambiguous in defining the difference between His Messengers and Angels;


 Gen 16:7  And the angel4397 of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.

 2Sa 11:23  And the messenger4397 said unto David, Surely the men prevailed against us, and came out unto us into the field, and we were upon them even unto the entering of the gate.

(In Hebrew)

H4397
מלאך
mal'âk
mal-awk'
From an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically of God, that is, an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher): - ambassador, angel, king, messenger.



 Mat 1:24  Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel32 of the Lord had bidden him and took unto him his wife:

 Mar 1:2  As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger32 before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

(In Greek)

 G32
ἄγγελος
aggelos
ang'-el-os
From ἀγγέλλω aggellō (probably derived from G71; compare G34; to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an “angel”; by implication a pastor: - angel, messenger.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Joy of the Angels/Messengers
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2007, 01:15:52 AM »

Thank you Joe

It is interesting.

Also did not Christ appear as an Angel in the OT?

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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DWIGHT

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Re: Joy of the Angels/Messengers
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2007, 02:02:28 AM »

Hi Joe,

I think that both must be the case.  The angels rejoice when any sinner repents whether in this age or the next because the whole creation groans for the manifestation of the sons of God.

In Him,

Dwight

P.S.  Is that picture from Hillsborough, North Carolina?  Sure is pretty.
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Joy of the Angels/Messengers
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2007, 08:28:54 AM »

Hello Dwight,

I tend to agree that the rejoicing from the angels when someone is called/chosen is real but that it is the physical fulfilment of these verses, the spiritual fulfilment is when Sons and Daughters emerge from the Lake of Fire incorruptable and immortal.

Thank you for your comment on the pic, it is the Hillsborough River view from my backyard dock, I love to start my day back there listening to the birds and the sound of the river flowing, very peaceful.

His Peace and Wisdom to you Brother,

Joe

P.S. Hillsborough County (Tampa) Florida
« Last Edit: January 26, 2007, 08:43:00 AM by hillsbororiver »
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Joy of the Angels/Messengers
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2007, 08:35:08 AM »

Thank you Joe

It is interesting.

Also did not Christ appear as an Angel in the OT?

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

You are welcome Arcturus,

Yes, A very good case can be made that Michael the Archangel is Christ, reading Daniel Chapter 10 & 12, Jude 1 & Revelation 12 it certainly appears that way.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Joy of the Angels/Messengers
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2007, 02:20:10 PM »

Hello Joe

I think it is so wonderful that the God of Moses was Christ the rock.

1 Cor 10 : 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

For this post I would like to bring forward this  comment you made for further discussion; Angels I do not see that we are transformed into them, so far I see that we are a unique and separate creation.

To  build on what you have observed..........

Matt 11 : 11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. (There is a least and a greater in the kingdom)

God has made man, angels, beasts and animals and that some who He chooses from mankind should be created to share in His Divine image and nature. Not all will have this merit that is purely of Gods favour and predetermination. I think we can safely say we are secure in the knowledge of God’s word that does not say anywhere that insects will “evolve” into the image of Christ or that  Fish will  inherit the Divine nature of God! That would be parallel to joining those who believe in Evolution!

 As it is also purely of God’s favour that any creature has existence on any plane, and in keeping with the knowledge of God’s Sovereignty, we can advance into the understanding  of Rom 9 : 16 So then God’s gift is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God’s mercy. It depends not on one’s own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God’s havening mercy on him.

This means to me that it is not because anyone is better, holier, stronger, wiser, smarter that God gives them the image of Christ and His own Divine Nature over others who are running their race. We can not earn anything. Why should we be able to?  God even bypassed angels that have never sinned and instead called and dragged into transformation those HE in HIS Sovereign power and might chooses to extend the initiation to His Divine nature and transformation not from holy angelic status but from out of weak sinful flesh. God has all the rights and we have all the favour.

My point here is this. The food chain will be set at peace and combat to get ahead, win the race at the expense of others will be settled in all creation. The fish will not want to be a horse and the monkey will not what to be human! Isaiah 65 : 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox; and the dust shall be the serpent’s food. They shall not hurt or destroy in all My holy Mount Zion, says the Lord.
The perfect man will not desire to become any thing other than what he is and he will be satisfied and content and in peace with God.  Each will enjoy their own natures and each in the diversity of uniqueness will express their perfection to Gods glory and praise.

The Body of Christ that is being called out of the world to be partakers of the divine nature in fellow-heir relationship with Christ is for the Millennial Kingdom for the express establishment of universal righteousness and peace. Not all are the Elect. Not even the angels are going to be higher than the elect. There are non higher than Christ and His co-heirs because there is non higher than the first fruiters except God Himself.  Those who are begotten of God to spiritual nature will be born of the Spirit as spiritual beings in the image of the glorified Christ in the resurrection.  This does not mean that some will be saved and others not. It means as you have pointed out there are separate unique creations in the order, purpose and plan of God over which all will be saved but not all will be elect.

Here is the bottom line. “Both the human and the spiritual natures will be glorious in their perfection, yet distinct and separate.” Paul does not say that we should not conform ourselves to this world and to transform ourselves into the divine image and likeness of Christ but he does say “be ye transformed…and be not conformed” as we do not do either one or the other but it is the work of the Spirit of Christ in us. Who can conform or transform themselves? This is a heavenly work of Christ being both author and finisher of our faith and restoration to perfection as immortal humans and for those God chooses His Son’s elect spiritual emissary being the ultimate prize for which the body of Christ is running. 

What do you think?

Peace be to you

Arcturus :)
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Joy of the Angels/Messengers
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2007, 12:57:25 PM »

Hi Arcturus,

I agree that species and individuals will retain their uniqueness less the carnal nature, so many wonderful promises;


    Jeremiah 31 (Amplified Bible)

  27Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed (offspring) of man and of beast.

    28And it will be that as I have watched over them to pluck up and to break down, and to overthrow, destroy, and afflict [with evil], so will I watch over them to build and to plant [with good], says the Lord.

    29In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge.(D)

    30But everyone shall die for his own iniquity [only]; every man who eats sour grapes--his [own] teeth shall be set on edge.

    31Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah

    32Not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was their Husband, says the Lord.

    33But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel: After those days, says the Lord, I will put My law within them, and on their hearts will I write it; and I will be their God, and they will be My people.

    34And they will no more teach each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, Know the Lord, for they will all know Me [recognize, understand, and be acquainted with Me], from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will [seriously] remember their sin no more.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe   




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