eternal human spirit???

Started by hart4god, January 28, 2007, 07:02:27 PM

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hart4god

January 28, 2007, 07:02:27 PM
Hello my Studious Friends!

I need some help. I am in a friendly and enjoyable discussion with another person about whether or not we have an eternal human spirit. Because of Ray's teachings, and especially his paper 12 Truths to Understanding the Bible, I am free of the contradiction of that Christian doctrine. Yet the idea that we are not eternal spirits is very troubling to my friend. And she has quoted to me some scriptures that seem to describe a human spirit. As I tried to study this- I found that only one Greek word was used for spirit- pneuma- and the Strong's definitions sounded more like commentary than anything like clarity on that word. It seems in many of the Scriptures you can discern that the word relates either to unclean spirits or the Holy Spirit of God. But where it gets dicey is when it says "my spirit" (quoted by Paul) or when Stephen said in Acts, "Lord Jesus receive my spirit." Because you cannot tell from word usage exactly what it means, I am just dealing with a situation with my friend where the Lord has to open her eyes and no studying will make this any clearer?

Below are some of the Scriptures she references.

Matthew 5 :3.  Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 8:55.      And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.

Acts 7:59.      And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit

Romans 1:9.      For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

Romans 8:16.   The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

James 2:26   For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.



I have tried to help her consider the creatiion of Adam more carefully and she insists that because we are created in the image  and likeness of God that we are spirits just like He is......and I have taken her through the Scriptures Ray references where it clearly states that it is always the natural followed by the spiritual, etc.

Are there answers for such questions or is there only prayers that eyes will open and ears will hear what the Spirit is saying to the church???

thanks to any and all who can expound on this.

judie h.

DWIGHT

#1
January 28, 2007, 07:52:24 PM
Hi Judie,

Here is an e-mail answer from Ray that might help! 
    Yes, there is a spirit in man (AND ALL ANIMALS). Nothing can live without "spirit." Spirit IS life (Ecc. 8:8; Ecc. 12:7; Luke 23:46;  I Cor. 2:11; etc.).  There is no consciousness in our spirit alone. There is only consciousness (soul) when man's spirit is combined with a body. God retains our spirit until resurrection when He puts our spirit into a new body and we once again become conscious or receive back the quality of "soul." We are said to have new "spiritual" bodies, not that we are made "spirits."
    God be with you,
    Ray

Dwight

Kat

#2
January 28, 2007, 08:27:19 PM

Hi hart4god,

I believe all the scripture you showed were talking about the spirit that God gives to all people with the first breath of life.  All people have this same spirit, it is what gives us life while we are in the flesh, it returns to the Father when we die.

Ecc 3:20  All go to one place; all are of the dust, and all return to dust again.

Ecc 12:7  and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

The Holy Spirit of God is another Spirit of God, that God gives only to the elect at this time.

John 14:15  Jesus said to his disciples: If you love me, you will do as I command.
v.16  Then I will ask the Father to send you the Holy Spirit (Comforter-MKJV, Another Advocate-Rotherham)  who will help you and always be with you.
v.17  The Spirit will show you what is true. The people of this world cannot accept the Spirit, because they don't see or know him. But you know the Spirit, who is with you and will keep on living in you. (CEV)

Here is email of Ray's on this subject.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1594.0.html ---------------

Every person (and animal) has a "spirit."  There is no life without spirit. At death OUR spirit return to our God Who gave it to us. Spirit does not die. But, spirit has no consciencousness of its own. It must be united with a body. That is why there is coming a Resurrection of the DEAD. Adam's body had the spirit of God breathed into it and then Adam became a LIVING SOUL.  God's Holy Spirit is His Spirit of Holiness which imparts spiritual knowledge and spiritual character to those who possess it. The wicked and unbelievers have a spirit that keeps them alive, but they have no spiritual perception of spiritual truths because they do not possess the Holy Spirit of God living in us through Jesus Christ our Lord. ETc. Sorry, but it would take days to answer your question in detail.

God be with you,

Ray
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace, and love
Kat

PKnowler

#3
January 28, 2007, 09:57:32 PM
Hi Judie,

    The scripture that helps me the most is:  1 Timothy 6:16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

Kat and Dwight gave you some good scriptures. Blessings in your sharing, may God give you wisdom and open your friends eyes.

~Paula  :)

hart4god

#4
January 29, 2007, 06:31:59 AM
Thanks for the Scripture reference, Paula,

as I go through this topic in my own study I came to the conclusion that I am the one that does not understand  the concept of spirit, not just my friend.....I think I have been like "the blind leading the blind"! hahahah. God is Good ( and has a great sense of humor!)

I do understand that pneuma and ruwach mean: breath and wind, etc.
and that when God breathed into Adam he became a living soul.

I think the problem is that our indoctination makes us think that this "life-spirit" is a spiritual version of ourselves. My friend also insists that the spirits of loved ones who have passed on meet us as we pass from this life into the next. She admits though, that she does not understand the Bible when it says, death is sleep. But like most of us - we all just skipped over things we did not understand. We all were told that some of it is too hard! and that our reasoning over it was "carnal". Now that makes me laugh! It is like a catch-22

so thank you all for your input and references. I think I need the Spirit's help on this one more than ever!
love,
judie h.

hillsbororiver

#5
January 29, 2007, 06:53:21 AM
Good morning Judie,

Dwight, Kat and Paula made some very good points and scripture but we all know it is impossible to change someone's mind unless the Lord is leading it.

I just wanted to add another verse from Ecclesiastes;


Ecc 3:19  For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe


Sorin

#6
January 29, 2007, 07:02:01 AM
Judie,

Seems like your friend doesn't know the difference between soul and spirit, they are not one and the same. Even the question 'eternal human spirit' is wrong because yes the breathe of life, spirit is eternal but at the same time it is not the soul, which is basically your thoughts, your emotions, your memories, etc.... therefore the spirit like the wind, does not know anything, and when your body dies, the spirit leaves the body, and your thoughts perish, your consciousness perishes with it, and the soul dies.

Eighter that or there will be a resurrection of the living.    ;)

Take care,
Sorin

PKnowler

#7
January 29, 2007, 12:12:41 PM
Quote from: hart4god on January 29, 2007, 06:31:59 AM
Thanks for the Scripture reference, Paula,

as I go through this topic in my own study I came to the conclusion that I am the one that does not understand  the concept of spirit, not just my friend.....I think I have been like "the blind leading the blind"! hahahah. God is Good ( and has a great sense of humor!)

I know what you mean. I've gone from believing death was like sleep, to believing we went to heaven when we died, back to believing death is like sleep. It is a good thing my salvation is not based on my understanding of spiritual things. That is one of the reasons I believe the message of Universal Reconciliation. People are not smart enough or spiritual enough to have ALL the answers.


Quote from: hart4god on January 29, 2007, 06:31:59 AM
I do understand that pneuma and ruwach mean: breath and wind, etc.
and that when God breathed into Adam he became a living soul.

I think the problem is that our indoctination makes us think that this "life-spirit" is a spiritual version of ourselves. My friend also insists that the spirits of loved ones who have passed on meet us as we pass from this life into the next. She admits though, that she does not understand the Bible when it says, death is sleep. But like most of us - we all just skipped over things we did not understand. We all were told that some of it is too hard! and that our reasoning over it was "carnal". Now that makes me laugh! It is like a catch-22

so thank you all for your input and references. I think I need the Spirit's help on this one more than ever!
love,
judie h.

I, too, have had much indoctrination to breakthrough to understand spiritual truths. I have also skipped over things I didn't understand or that seemed to be in contradiction to other scriptures. It is so wonderful to come to the understanding that the Bible is not full of contradictions! It all flows beautifully together. Ray has helped me see that.

Blessings to you in your studies!

~Paula  :)

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