Resurrection of the Dead

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Rob,

Of course with God all things are possible but Paul gives us an indication of what God's plan is, was and will be;

Those of the Old Covenant are not under the promise of the New Covenant which truly began at the cross but really manifested and came to be alive at Pentecost. Here is what Paul says about the men of faith, the men of old, the Prophets and Patriarchs.

Hebrews 11

  32And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

33Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.

34Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

35Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

38(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

I hope this helps a bit.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[gmik]

Thanks for the 3 groups-2 endings visual.  Makes sense.

yes, a good thread.

gena

[Kat]

Hi Rob,

Here an email from Ray, it is about is exact subject.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,839.0.html ---patriarchs


Teaching Ray
« on: May 23, 2006, 08:20:13 AM »     

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Of course. Soloman was the wisest man ever to grace the face of the earth except for Jesus Christ. Men of the Old Testament were saved just as we of the New Testament times are. We are saved through faith, just as Abraham was. As we look back in History to Christ, the men of the Old Testament looked forward in the future to Christ. The sacrifices that were made did not save man, they were really just a putting off of sin until Christ did come. All throughout the Old Testament God revealed Christ through prophecy. The tabernacle, and all of its surroundings, furniture, priestly robes, etc. all picture Christ in some way. The alter represents Christ's sacrificial death, the laver represents Him as the living water and cleanser of our sin. The Table of shewbread, bread of Life. Candlestick- light of the world. Incens e alter- our Great High Priest and intercessor. Mercy seat- merciful God. Manna- Jesus again as the Bread of Life and our sustenance, our Spiritual sustenance. Yes, Soloman knew about Christ. Did he know His name was to be Jesus, a form of the name Joshua? No. Men of the old testament knew Him as Immanuel, the Son of The Most High God. Do not think me ignorant, I am not trying to put you down or attack you. I am only trying to pursuade you to study your Bible spiritually as well as logically.  Dave


Dear Dave:

Your teachings are neither spiritual, nor logical, nor Scriptural. Perhaps you should study your bible a little more.

What did any of the ancient patriarchs know of "saving grace?"  Answer:  Nothing!  And why is that? Because: "For the LAW was given by Moses, but GRACE AND TRUTH came by Jesus Christ"  (John 1:18).  Grace did not come before Christ, hence: No one was saved before Christ.  "These ALL died in faith [how many? 'ALL.'] in faith [did they all have faith? Yes.  Are we 'saved by faith?'  NO--'By  GRACE ye are saved....' Eph. 2:8.  Did they nonetheless receive the promise of immortal life?  NO....] NOT having received the promises..." (Heb. 11:13).

Could not the Patriarchs receive salvation through the faith that they had BEFORE Jesus came to die for their sins?  NO.  No Patriarch will be saved except through God's chosen elect: "And these ALL [how many? 'ALL'] having obtained a good report through faith, received NOT THE PROMISES: God having provided some better thing for US, that THEY without US should NOT be made perfect [Gk: 'complete.']"  (Heb. 11:13 & 39-40).

Well then, if their faith and good report did not and cannot make them 'complete,' pray what can make them 'complete?'  Answer:  "And ye ['ye' believers in Jesus, not those who knew not Jesus and did not have Jesus live in them, and who were not 'crucified with Christ,' etc., etc., etc.]...and ye are COMPLETE [how?] IN  H-I-M  [JESUS]"  (Col. 2:10), etc., etc., etc.

Sometimes, Dave, it is also good to have a 'teacher' to help you understand the things that you miss by studying on your own.

God be with you,

Ray
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Rob

You asked : can anyone reading this posting, say for a certainty that they are for sure part of a very elect few who will attain to the first resurrection and rulership with Christ?

If you take the term "saved" as referring to the Elect few, then you might be able to comprehend that your question is very adeptly answered in the following.

Enjoy!


"You Fools! You Hypocrites! You Snakes!"[Jesus was the Master of Scathing Sarcasm]



Where you find "saved" or "HAS saved," it usually has reference to someone whom Jesus healed, rather than spiritual salvation into the Kingdom of God. A few times we find the phrase: "ARE saved." This, however, is not telling us WHEN we are saved, but rather HOW we "ARE saved." (Scripturally we "are saved" by hope, grace, and the gospel).
Although Eph. 2:8 tells us that, "By grace ARE ye saved through faith..." This is a statement of HOW we get saved—by grace, those in the past "are saved," those living now "are saved" by grace WHEN they get saved, and those in the future also "are saved" by grace (as opposed to some other means). A very few King James renderings such as I Cor. 1:18 & II Cor. 2:15 should also read, "are BEING saved" (as it is in the Greek), whereas II Tim. 1:9 & Titus 3:5 should read, "SAVES us [an ongoing process]."
And so the Scriptural truth of this matter is, no one is saved (in the past tense) in this life without "enduring unto the END." Else it would make no sense at all for Paul to state:
"But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be A CASTAWAY [Gk: 'disqualified]" (I Cor. 9:27)
if he were ALREADY SAVED (past tense) at the time he made the statement.
The Scriptures are loaded with this principle:
"Therefore I endure [presently he 'endures'] all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain [future] the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory" (II Tim. 2:10).
Jesus taught that the seed that fell on the stony ground did 'endure for a time,' but since it had not deep root, the cares of this world caused it to 'wither away.' Is it not clear that we must 'endure unto the END' to be saved?
And Paul absolutely proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, that NO ONE is saved (in the past tense) IN THIS LIFE. Here is why:
"For we are saved BY HOPE: [also by "grace," and "the gospel,"] but hope that is seen [seen as a fact, as in, 'I am already saved'] is NOT HOPE: for what a man sees, why does he YET HOPE FOR [it]? But if we hope for that we see not [is not a fulfilled fact as yet] then do we with PATIENCE [perseverance] WAIT FOR IT" (Rom. 8:24-25).
It should be obvious to all that there is no need whatsoever to "patiently WAIT" for something that we already have. What a horrible lie and heresy the Church teaches on this most important subject, by deceiving billions into thinking they can be saved by mouthing a 20 second prayer!
It is absolutely useless to call Jesus, "LORD, LORD..." in a 20 second sinner's prayer or in any other way, unless you are ready to follow the rest of our Lord's admonition, "...and do not THE THINGS WHICH JESUS SAYS" (Luke 6:46). I could go on for fifty more pages on this one theme, but it's time I bring this to a close.  Unquote
......................................................................................................
So the answer to your question  can anyone reading this posting, say for a certainty that they are for sure part of a very elect few who will attain to the first resurrection and rulership with Christ?  Is, NO...I certainly hope not in this Forum! To assume or profess election is to reveal ignorance of God's word and arrogance before God's power!

Peace to you

Arcturus

[whatslifeallabout]

Thanks for the insights and thoughts shared in response to my own.  I am indeed new to the forum, but have very much enjoyed reading over a lot the discussions as well as Ray's articles. 

Someone mentioned that Ray's health was in danger - how is he doing now, can anyone say?

Someone also said that Ray's teachings were available on audio on the Internet -- where is that, can someone tell me?

Warmly,
Rob  

[vic]

Hello Arcturus,

I am deeply sadenned to see how discouraging you are in stating dogmatically that one cannot know if we are saved or not.
There are so many scriptures that show exactly who is saved and who is not. 1 Cor 15 is one of the most eye opening books on this subject to those who doubt.
v 1 and 2,  ... in which you stand -present tense, . v2 By which you are saved a present condition "saved".
Please read it right through several times.
If you are called of God, John 6:44-66. If you believe as Abraham did Gen 15:6 and build faith (the first good work or fruit of belief), if you understand and repent
and are baptized, you will receive the gift of God's Holy Spirit. Just like those to whom Peter preached to on the day of Pentecost. Read Acts 2.  note especially v36 - 47.
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. 44And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. 46And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 47Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as s hould be saved.
When you are saved and have  the gift of  the Spirit you will have the fruits of the Spirit in your life, Gal 5:16 "Walk in the Spirit, , and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Gal 5 :22-26.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
Gen 15 : 5 and 6

It is thropuggh Abraham's belief and faith that we are saved.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6  And he believed in the LORD; and He counted it to him for righteousness.

To be part of the elect we must become Abraham's seed. Gal 3 : 24 , justified by faith,
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. (that is present tense we are "now")
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
How are we made of the body of Christ (a Spiritual Body) How do we put on Christ  by having become "being" heirs.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

If we are given God's Spirit ad remain faithful, WE WILL BE IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION.

If we have not the Spirit we are none off his.

Many mi apply heb 11:39 not understanding what the "promise" was. The Promise was our redeemer Christ.
Until Christ came and estanblished the  New Covenant and the Kingdom of God on the day of Pentecost, they could only have
"the promise" of Christ coming to reddem all mankind Jn 3:16.
v40 "They without us" is not saying that they should not be made perfect, tbut  that both they and us shall be made perfect.
They because of  the promise and we because of that promise having been fulfilled in Christ.
Until Christ came they only had faith in his coming, The promise could not be fulfilledtil that wonderous event occured.

the answer to the question is easy and clear.
If you have God's spirit you are saved  - If you have not His Spirit you are not saved.
Read Rom 8, several times and be led and guided by God's Spirit,
v 2 Free from the law of sin and death v 8 they thsat  are in the flesh cannot please God.
v14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Son of God NOW.

I urge you to have the faith of God and truly believe that it the Gift of the Spirit that saves us and that saving happened , from the moment we received  that Gift.

Vic.

[Kat]

Hi Vic,

I have found these emails from Ray, to show that we are not saved in this life, but for the elect it will be at the first resurrection, the rest in the lake of fire judgment.
We can not know for sure we will be faithful, until we have been faithful.
We are baptized into Christ's death, and water baptism is of no value, the apostles no longer baptized after they came to understand it was a spiritual baptism.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=109.msg393#msg393 -----------------

Dear Daryn:

You question is: Why does God call many but only choose a few? Because there is much greater learning to be gained by the way God is doing it. 

We need to thoroughly understand why the many called will not be in the Kingdom of God.  We are to rely completely and totally on God for our salvation. The many called rely on their own blasphemous, free-will sovereignty over God. They believe that they can either make or brake God, all according to how they will exercise their own fabled "free will." 

Those who are in the first resurrection have been totally purged of any such blasphemy.  God determines how deeply He wants His Sons and Daughters to understand these spiritual truths before they are accepted into His Kingdom. Even Paul had no guarantee that he would be saved regardless of how he either obeyed or did not obey until the very end. Yet, "All is of God."

God be with you,
Ray
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http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1345.0.html ------------------

Anyway, so you believe that I Pet. 1:9 contradicts the dozens of SCRFIPTURES that I have used to prove that we do not receive salvation in this lifetime?

Okay, let's read the NIV on this matter:

"Praise be to God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ in His great mercy He as given us new birth into a living HOPE [See Rom. 8:24-25 for a definition of 'hope.' If we already possess salvation in THIS LIFE, there is no need to 'hope' for it] throught the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade--KEPT IN HEAVEN FOR YOU [given to us while we are alive in this lifetime?  NO! 'kept in heaven for you.'] who through faith are shielded by God's power UNTIL [do you know what the word 'until' means?] the coming of the salvation [oh! it is yet 'coming?' It is not YET here in this lifetime, is it?] that is ready to be revealed in the LAST TIME [in our time? NO, in the 'last time." In OUR lifetime?  NO, in the 'last time'].  In this you greatly rejoice, though NOW FOR A LITTLE WHILE you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of traials [which we will NOT suffer when we are 'SAVED'].  These have come so that your faith[faith is the assurance of things HOPED FOR, not the POSESSION OF THINGS ALREADY ACQUIRED, Heb. 11:1] of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire--may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor WHEN JESUS CHRIST IS REVEALED  [in THIS lifetime?  NO, 'when Jesus Christ is revealed'--in His Presence, I John 3:1-3].  Though you have not seen Him, you love Him; nd evn thoug you do not see Him NOW, you believe in Him and are filled an inexpressilbe and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls [in the FUTURE, at His Presence, etc., etc., etc.]."

Hope this helps your understanding.

God be with you,

Ray
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http://bible-truths.com/email6.htm#nothing *--------------------------------------

But what about all these 'physical things' of circumcision and baptism? Do we not have to be circumcised and baptized? YES WE DO! ABSOLUTELY. And here is how it is to be done:

"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy [theological doctrines] and vain DECEIT, after the TRADITION OF MEN, after the RUDIMENTS OF THE WORLD, and not AFTER CHRIST. For IN HIM dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.  And YOU ARE COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the Head of all principality and power: In Whom also ye ARE CIRCUMCISED [how so?] with the circumcision made WITHOUT HANDS [or knives], in putting off the BODY OF THE SINS OF THE FLESH by the CIRCUMCISION OF CHRIST: [notice, no period...] Buried WITH HIM [in 'WATER baptism?' No...] in baptism [how so? same way! 'WITHOUT HANDS; WITHOUT WATER, 'in putting off the body of the SINS OF THE FLESH by the BAPTISM OF CHRIST--there is but 'ONE BAPTISM,' Eph. 4:5!], wherein also you are risen WITH HIM through the faith of the operation of God Who has raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the UNcircumcision of your flesh, has He quickened together WITH HIM, having forgiven you ALL TRESPASSES

... Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon or of the sabbath days: Which are a SHADOW of things to come, but the body [the SUBSTANCE, the REALITY OF THE SHADOW, the BODY OF CHRIST WHICH WAS CASTING THE SHADOW] is of [or belongs to] CHRIST" (Col. 2:8-13 & 16-17)!!!

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Hope this helps.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Vic

I do not belong in any institutionalised church of man. I know I have been dragged out. I did not choose of my own understanding or desire to come out of Mystery Babylon. I use to prefer the garlic and onions! Milk and honey seemed bland and not tangy like Egyptian paganism, but not anymore. My tastes have been changed!

By grace through faith I have been booted out of the Synagogues I wanted to stay in. My errors have been revealed to me through God's goodness and as a result I have been chastised, humiliated and pained into repentance for following after heretical vain teachings of spiritual idolatry. I have been turned back to God. This is something that is beyond debate, agreement or opinion. Whether I will stay turned back to God is for God alone to know and for me to find out in the very near future.

I trust that I am in the body of Christ because I have come out of Mystery Babylon and no longer participate in any share of her sins or the plagues that will come upon her. What I do not yet know is whether or not Christ is going to spit me out of his body via His mouth because of being neither hot or cold. How Jesus sees me only He alone knows. By the time He comes for me will HE find in me  warm, coy cosy and fuzzy or either hot or cold?

When HE comes again will I be part of the very little faith that Christ finds when He comes again?  I do not know because I have not passed out of my tests yet. I am still in a carnal body subject to failure, weakness and liability to temptations. Heb 4 : 15 DO you still have weaknesses, infirmities and liability to the assaults of temptations Vic?

I am still being refined in trials and tribulations. When Jesus comes again....you do know and agree that He is coming again don't you Vic.?...anyway, when He comes again I hope He will find that I am not  warm cosy and fuzzy but either hot or cold so I do not have to be spat out of His body via His mouth..

Rev 3 : 16 So because you are lukewarm and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth! 17 For you say, I am rich; I have prospered and grown wealthy, and I AM IN NEED OF NOTHING; and you do not realize and understand that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind and naked.

So for me being in the body of Christ is no guarantee that I will or can remain in the body of Christ.  Will I make the grade?  Only He knows because it is His work and only when He comes again for me, will that work be completed and then I too will know if I am to join those who gnash their teeth or whether I will hear my King say to me, well done! I am not leaning on my own understanding Vic. Maybe you think that is a lukewarm faithless thing to do but I on the other hand believe that complacency and enticement into believing that salvation is a done deal at the cross, or when in my little mind or upon my understanding I think I believe -  which is heresy to say the least.

Now I do realize that you may not have an idea of what I am getting at here but I will say it anyway.  I am not saved by faith but by HIS decree that is by Grace through faith, which is a gift, not my right or my claim or by what I think I have been given in advance. I have been the prodigal son. I have wasted my inheritance and I am on my way home with nothing...no claims, no rights no wild and fancy beliefs that I deserve anything but a thrashing and delegation to servants quarters.  I know my Father loves me though and I can't wait to get into His arms of Love again.

So for now I am going to hold fast and not let any man made doctrines take my hope in Christ away because for me He comes again ....which is in the FUTURE and is not yet come and He comes againto bring to full salvation those who are eagerly, constantly, and patiently waiting for and expecting Him. Heb 9 : 28

For me Vic, Jesus Christ is still coming.  I see the signs and so I have to stand apart from and separate to the opinions and views you addressed to me. I hope you will forgive me.

His peace to you

Arcturus

[Kat]

Hi Rob,

On the first page you will see 'Introductions and Announcements'
Click on that and you will see 'Ray's audio downloads.'
As for his health, I would say he's doing pretty good right now 

Hi Arcturus,

That was very eloqculately put.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[DWIGHT]

Dear Vic,

Please take these posts in the spirit that they are given.  We all are seeking the truth in love and in spirit.  The "assurance of salvation" doctrine originated from Christianity and not from the Scriptures.  All the verses that you quoted are either in the aeorist or future tense in the greek.  Vic, I understand what you must be thinking, but those doctrines that we were taught in Christianity have only blinded us from the very truths that God has clearly spoken in His word.  It is true that if you walk in spirit that you have the Spirit of God; but only One has ever completley done that.  In our walk with the Lord, are we not chastised and have many trials and temptations?  Why, so that we CAN BE (future) perfect and holy and without spot toward our Lord at His coming. 

We will all be saved, eventually, but not all will be in the first resurrection.  Perhaps, that is what you were talking about.  I'm sure that is what Arcturus is talking about.  I hope this helps.

Love in His grace,

Dwight

[iris]

This has been a really good thread.

I have learned much, and it has cleared a few things up for me.

Thanks!!!


Iris

[Deborah-Leigh]

Yes Dwight

Once saved always saved is a dangerously naive and foolish assumption yet... to the none lost Glory of God, ALL will be saved!

Iris I am encouraged that you have found clarity through this thread. I think I can venture to say without drawing too much criticism that,  it makes the outpouring of the heart worthwhile and rewarding for all of us I think.

Peace to you all

Arcturus

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Arcturus,

That was very eloqculately put.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

Thank you Kat. It is always pleasing to recieve encouragement. It is painful enought to receive correction so when encouragement comes, it is sweet

Peace to you

Arcturus

[rocky]

I kind of answered this in the sharing UR thread

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2804.45.html


The lake of fire is God and his believers. The beast is the son of perdition, The son of perdition sit in the temple God. We are the temple of God. Everything goes in to the lake of fire. So if everyone is a worshiper of the beast then who is saved?

Hi RV,

It's true that everyone at some point will have the beast displaced or purged out of them, for the elect in the present life through chastisement, trials and tribulation where we are active, (painfully active at times) in judging ourselves. The "overcomers" through the Spirit of Christ become this symbolic, spiritual Lake of Fire for the Fall Harvest who are raised to the White Throne Judgement.

All will eventually enter the Kingdom, in their own season, in His time, some will receive few stripes and some will receive many, for some it will be minor adjustments and others will be totally overhauled depending on the condition of their heart, on their steadfast embrace of the idol within.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

Here are some questions I have.  So far, what i understand  is the judgment on the house of God is now.  Judgment is to purge and burn the carnal out of us.  It's not enough to trust in Christ's righteousness to get us in the first resurrection.  But rather, Christ's righteousness has to be worked out through us.  Very few will have this happen. 

Now my question is, will these few be 100 percent righteous, living a complete sin free life??  If not, then what is God's cut off; 99 percent, 80 percent, 51 percent in order to be in the first resurrection.  Do only some believers receive 100 percent of Christ's righteousness living through them, and 100 percent death to the carnal self.  While the rest of us go through a partial carnal, partial Christ life? 

Some will say it's impossible to live 100 percent of the time in the spirit, and as long as there is flesh body, we will sin.  Well then, it seems to me, noone will ever be in the first resurrection. 


Seems to me that even Paul wasnt' sure he "hit the cut off point" to be in the first resurrection.

Sure seems to me this type of thinking leads to focus on carnal self, focus on flesh and trying to measure the progress of the death to flesh, rather than on Christ's finished work at the cross, and trusting that he is my righteousness, and when i sin, it is no longer me, but sin in me. 

Arrrr,  just wish I had some peace of mind. 

[Redbird]

Now, you're sounding like a bear, Rocky.....you all are so beautiful!! I just have to smile, because there is so much wisdom out there on this forum.  And a bit of truth in all.

Peace,

Lisa

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Rocky,

I wouldn't sweat it Brother, just contemplating this and having the knowledge that it is the Spirit of Christ within that we aspire to gain rather than anything we can do on our own merit puts us in a "peculiar" position. If you are aware of this chastisement and recognize it is of God seems to show you are a son (of His) and not a ******* (Heb 12:8).

Rest in Him and pick up His yoke, God is in control and worrying about such matters is counter productive to our faith.

Remember the request of James and John and Jesus' answer?


Mark Chapter 10


35And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire.

36And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you?

37They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.

38But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?

39And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:

40But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

The Father has preordained who will be the first into the Kingdom and He can change us in the "twinkling of an eye" if He so pleases, as to whether any of us live in this flesh sinless at some point, very doubtful. I am not aware of any of the apostles making that claim, or scripture that says any of us are incorruptable or "like Him" until after the resurrection or "the change" at His return.

1Cor Chapter 15

 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

BECOMING PERFECT

Jesus Christ DIED FOR OUR SINS, and that accomplishes the SALVATION OF THE WHOLE WORLD, because God will eventually bring every creature in HEAVEN AND IN EARTH to repentance and humble submission to Jesus Christ (Phil. 2:9-11, Rom. 10:9, I Cor. 15:25). But forgiving sin, pardoning sin, justifying our sinful past, or even redeeming our bodies and giving us incorruptible and immortal bodies, does NOT make us perfect in deed and character!

God is PERFECT! And God wants His children to BE PERFECT! And believe it or not God WILL. . . MAKE ... US ... PERFECT!

"He [God] chooses us in Him [Christ] before the disruption [foundation] of the world, we to be HOLY and FLAWLESS [PERFECT] in His sight ..." (Eph. 1:4).

"You, then, shall be PERFECT as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Mat. 5:48).

"I in them, and Thou in Me, that they [that's US] may be made PERFECT in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent me, and hast loved Me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved Me" (John 17:23).

"Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man PERFECT in Christ Jesus" (Col. 1:28).

People are quick to say, "Well, NOBODY is perfect." That's not true:

"For it became HIM, for Whom are all things, and by Whom are all things, in bringing many [that's us and the rest of the world] sons unto glory, to make them the CAPTAIN of their salvation PERFECT [how?] Through SUFFERING" (Heb. 2:10).

Yes, maybe nobody but Christ is perfect now, but it won't always be that way. Paul knew that it was a process and that it would be ultimately God's achievement:

"Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus" (Phil. 3:12).

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some pastors and teachers; For the PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS ..." (Eph. 4:11-12).

Say, did you notice that Christ was perfected through "SUFFERING?" Are we not to bear our own Cross? If they hated and persecuted Christ, will they not do likewise to us? Do we think the Scripture says in vain,

"Herein is our love made PERFECT, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He [Christ] IS, SO ARE WE in the world" (I Jn. 4:17).

Paul tells us in I Thes. 2 and II Thes. 1 that suffering and persecutions are a big part of the judgment that God uses to test us and to deem us worthy of His kingdom and salvation.

There is a giant reason why most professing Christians do NOT suffer persecutions. They may have social, health, and financial problems, but persecutions? Hardly! Why is that? Do you know that more people suffer persecution from their families BEFORE they become Christians than they ever do AFTER they become Christians? Why do you suppose that is? Could it be that as Christians they blend INTO society rather than STICK OUT?

I can tell you on the authority of Jesus Christ, God's Word, and the Apostle Paul, that unless you are SUFFERING real PERSECUTION, you are NOT a follower of Jesus Christ nor are you living godly in Christ Jesus!

"Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted ME, they will also persecute YOU; if they have kept MY saying, they will keep YOURS also" (John 15:20).

"And at that time there was a GREAT PERSECUTION against the church ... and they were all scattered abroad ... except the apostles" (Acts 8:1).

"YEA, and ALL that will live godly in Christ Jesus SHALL SUFFER PERSECUTION" (II Tim. 3:12).

Taken from;

http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html

[Robin]

2 Timothy 2

11Here is a trustworthy saying:
   If we died with him,
      we will also live with him;
12if we endure,
      we will also reign with him.
   If we disown him,
      he will also disown us;
13if we are faithless,
      he will remain faithful,
      for he cannot disown himself.

Mark Chapter 10


35And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire.

36And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you?

37They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.

38But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?

39And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:

40But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

We all have the assurance of our salvation. All will be saved. I know I will be saved. I know you all will be saved.

http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html

We don't know yet if we will be a part of the first resurrection and reign with Christ. We don't know if we will endure to the end. We don't know if we are one of the chosen few.

Philippians 3:14
I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.

This to me means that they were asking to reign with Christ. To be a part of the first resurrection.

Jesus answered:

can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?

Revelation 20:
4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

40But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

1 Corinthians 9
27But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Matthew 10
22And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Philippians 2
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

[gmik]

This was an absolutely wonderful teaching thread.  Thanks to all.  I will be pondering this for some time.
gena