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Church vs Babylon

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worm:
I wanted to continue discussing these issues on another thread, but it was locked...  :?

CHURCH
some study I've done...
the word "church" is mentioned in the NT 79 times in the KJV and NAS...and EVERYTIME it is mentioned it means "ekklesia"...from Matthew to Revelation...and EVERYTIME it refers to God's people and the followers of Jesus Christ

Young's literal translation gives "church" as "assembly" and the Concordant as "ecclesia"

Like Ray has taught us, we should keep things Scriptual...well, Scriptually "church" means "ekklesia"...here's Strong's definition:

ἐκκλησία
ekklēsia
ek-klay-see'-ah
a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.

BABYLON
Babylon is mentioned 11 times in the KJV and NAS...6 times in Revelation and indeed means "confusion"


Now...lets' put our Spiritual caps on:

We have been taught that Revelation is a book of signs and symbols, and should be read Spiritually and not Carnally...I cannot agree more 8)

Now "the problem" I see is when we are taught that we have to physically come out of the churches (not the ekklesia but the earthly denominations) to become "the chosen"...but yet we are to read Revelation as signs and symbols ie spiritually?

If we are to have "Christ in us" (Spiritual walk), then we should also come out of a spiritual Babylon...ie away from the fruits of the flesh and onto the fruits of the Spirit....BECAUSE...evil starts in our hearts, it is not an external thing...if we want to be Spiritual and Scriptual according to Revelation, we should walk Spiritually and Scriptually as well...the fight against Babylon is not a physical leaving of a church but an inner working...

This I say because Christ alone can help us to leave Babylon, Christ lives "in us" and His Kingdom reigns "in us" and we are in Heaven which is "in us"...

the realm of the Spirit has got ALL to do with what's "in us"...and so we can say that the church (ekklesia) lives "in us" and we "in it"...this way our lights can shine from within us and produce the fruits of the Spirit...as it is in Heaven (inside us), so it will be on earth (outside of us)

**flamesuit on**

hillsbororiver:
Rev 18:1  And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

Rev 18:2  And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
 
Rev 18:3  For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
 
Rev 18:4  And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins,and that ye receive not of her plagues.

 


Babulōn
bab-oo-lone'
Of Hebrew origin; Babylon, the capital of Chaldaea (literally or figuratively as a type of tyranny): - Babylon.

Worm, I think you can see that Babylon does not ALWAYS EXCLUSIVELY mean confusion.

Pronunciation: 'ch&rch
Etymology: Middle English chirche, from Old English cirice, ultimately from Late Greek kyriakon, from Greek, neuter of kyriakos of the lord, from kyrios lord, master; akin to Sanskrit ś ūra hero, warrior
1 : a building for public and especially Christian worship
2 : the clergy or officialdom of a religious body
3 : a body or organization of religious believers: as a : the whole body of Christians b : DENOMINATION c : CONGREGATION
4 : a public divine worship <goes to church every Sunday>
5 : the clerical profession <considered the church as a possible career>

As you can see by the definition above the world has hijacked the word "church" this is the physical, carnal church the elect are admonished to come out of.

We all agree the true "church" is the body of Christ, the elect, that come out of Babylon, the harlot, Egypt.

For a better more detailed explaination read this excellent article.

http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html

Joe

hillsbororiver:
Here is an example of how the "confusion" definition of Babylon can also describe the carnal christian churches; you are from a remote island and have never heard of Jesus, but fate brings you to America (for instance) and you are intrigued by all the beautiful buildings with the name Jesus prominently displayed and you hear things that this Jesus wants to save you from the death that all flesh fears but rarely acknowledges.

You hear there are some who visit these buildings and worship on Sunday and others who say Saturday is the proper day of worship. Since you have the weekends off this does not pose any problem and you go on to your journey to visit a different one every week, sometimes even two.

Your journey brings you to the Catholic church where the ceremony is rather formal but how beautiful are all the flowers, candles and stained glass, there is this rather curious ritual attempting to replicate cannibalism but it is only a wafer and grape juice so it is safe enough but why is it necessary you wonder.

The next week you are in a Pentacostal Church and the people seem happy to see a new face and their welcome seems sincere enough, but then the music begins playing, getting louder and people are actually shaking and some are even rolling in the aisles! The music suddenly stops and there are people sputtering incomprehensible utterances that makes your head spin. What are they trying to say?

The next week you are visiting the Church of Latter Day Saints, the people are nice they seem a bit secretive as though you need to be cleared before they really open up to you. Nice building though.

The next Sunday you find yourself at a Uniterian Church where everyone is dressed differently, suits to shorts and sandals, I guess that is ok just a little more informal, but was is this business about worship as you see fit? I came to learn about the Jesus who is going to give me immortality, what do I know? How can I find some direction here?

Maybe going to a Saturday church is where something can be learned in depth about this mysterious Jesus fellow, as you enter the church you are greeted by conservatively dressed but friendly folks who welcome you graciously inviting you to a study group before the main service. Great, you think, finally going to get some real answers about Jesus. But wait, why are they talking about a Sister White and her visions? I thought this was about Jesus.

Saturday did not work out as well as you had hoped so the following day it is off to a Baptist church where again you are greeted warmly and the singing is joyful and comforting not at all like the thunderous Pentecostal sounds. After hearing about the softball league registration after the service and a special collection for the state of the art sound system the church wants to install in the brand new Rec room just built you are captivated by the man behind the podium, looking radiant in a black suit and blue silk tie his voice melodious even just speaking, rising in tone to describe the new city the saints will be living in, all the gold paved streets and pillars of exotic jewels that encompass this majestic city.

 Then the voice lowers becoming more authoritive as he describes this other place not nearly so pleasant, and all because someone never heard of this Jesus fellow, up to a few weeks ago you had never heard of him either, what about the family and friends back on the island? Are your dead grandparents burning up right this very minute? How about the uncle of yours who just passed away, he would give someone the shirt off his back just because he thought they may have needed it more than he did? Is he writhing in indescribable pain now? Just because he never heard of this Jesus? I thought Jesus was the one to save us from death and destruction, this hell place sounds even worse than being dead in the grave.


You think you would be confused?

Joe

searching:
Joe I just have laugh  :lol:  yes this would be very confusing indeed. But this is so true  :cry:
Lots of Love
Trish

worm:
thanx guys for the replies :D

@hillsbororiver:
If all churches in America is like that in your island story it would really be a shame :(

I understand that the world has changed the meaning of church...but it still does not change the meaning in Scripture...


--- Quote ---We all agree the true "church" is the body of Christ, the elect, that come out of Babylon, the harlot, Egypt.
--- End quote ---

I don't necessarily agree with this...the above assumption you make from Ray's Lake of Fire series specifically about Revelation...nowhere else in Scriptures is this principle teached...that the elect or chosen will "come out" of the ekklesia (church)...the ekklesia (body of Christ) IS the saints elect and chosen...that's why I said in my earlier post that Babylon is a condition of the heart...doesn't matter whether you are in a church or never visited a church, it is our insides (spiritual) that needs to change...

Ray is adament that we should read Revelation in a Spiritual way...and I agree totally...but then he says that Babylon is a physical entity (the wordly church buildings) we have to come out of...can you see my dilemma with this reasoning?

what if God calls and chooses someone that's never been in a church?
from which Babylon does he then has to "come out of"?

guys...I'm not trying to upset anyone...I'm just trying to really understand clearly :wink:

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