when is scripture literal and when is it spiritual????

[brothertoall]

I do believe Ray said that the bible is 1 BIG PARABLE.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

I could be the only one that has noticed this but depending on the topic of the day many scripture verses have been used. Some seem to use it as meaning literally and others seem to use it as spiritually.I hope I said this right.

When are we to descern that it is being used literally or spiritually.According to the above scriptures the word of God is spiritual in meaning and understanding.

I am a little confused.

bobby

[rrammfcitktturjsp]

Bobby,

  I just read through that paper where he mentions it.  I have relooked through the threads and come to a similar conclusion that you are.

  Thanks for posting, I will be very interested in what will be posted in this topic.

  Have a great day.

  Sincerely,



  Anne C. McGuire

[brothertoall]

Anne I thank God that I am not the only one who has noticed this. You have been a blessing to me this morning and I thank you.

I too want to see what responses are given.

Love to you my sister and friend,

bobby

[ciy]

Bobby
I agree.  I like to continue to seek the spiritual meaning of the Word.  The physical almost always leads to "reasoning with our own understanding" and gets us into arguments of the flesh.  Thanks.
CIY

[brothertoall]

Yes CIY I agree and I have to be honest and I have caught myself or should I say it has been revealed to me that I was tending to be doing that myself.

bobby

[vic]

The written word is physical, the Israelites lived physically and had physical examples or shadows of the spiritual, the Old Covenant was a physical, temporary, conditional covenant, physical blessings for obedience,
physical cursing for disobediece and ended in death, the death the Israelite and the death of our saviour. Fulfilled Mat 5;17. only until John Luke 16:16. Mat 11:10-13.

The New Covenant is Spiritual internal of the heart and mind.

By belief, faith, repentance and the Gift of  the  Spirit.

We are to be led by the spirit not by the physical.

If we have not the Spirit we are no of His

Vic..

[Kat]

Hi Bobby,

It is not an easy thing to understand, but it is only by His Spirit that we can discern spiritual things.

Joh 16:13  When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.


Gal 5:24  And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Gal 5:25  If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
Gal 5:26  Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

When you realize that it is not you who is figuring out these things and it is not you who has discernment in matters, and it is not you who shows any wisdom, but by His Spirit in you that you do all things, then you know you are being guided by His Spirit in you.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat  

[brothertoall]

Thank you Vic and Kat and this I know but why then does scripture usage by those who are lead of the Spirit use it literally at times.

As I said before I have been guilty of this myself. It has happened here many times. if the Word is spiritual then why are we using it in some topics as literal?

That was my question.

For example if you read the prophetic scripture of the old testiment is it not spiritual as well as the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ?

bobby

[brothertoall]

I have been re-reading this paper from Ray

http://bible-truths.com/lake4.html

[Kat]

Hi Bobby,

The way I see it, is that scripture can be both spiritual and literal. 
Some things are only spiritual and some things are only literal,
but a lot of scripture has the physical first and by that you understand the spiritual.
It is not cut and dry one way or the other.
God made the scripture a mystery, so He could reveal it to those He so desires by His Spirit.

Eph 6:19  And pray for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel,

Eph 1:9  having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,

Mar 4:11  And He said to them, To you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God. But to those outside, all these things are given in parables

The Bible is like a gaint parable to the whole church, seeing they do not see (Matt. 13:13), that is the way God wants it.  It is complicated and a mystery, so God can reveal it to just the few He wants to.  And even among the elect there has to be someone to teach.

Rom 16:25  Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages

The apostles were teaching the believers, so they all did not have understanding just because they were a believer.  It was given for some to be teachers.

Eph 4:11  And truly He gave some to be apostles, and some to be prophets, and some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,
Eph 4:12  for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.

Well I hope this is of some help.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[rrammfcitktturjsp]

Kat,

  Thanks for your two posts.  They have cleared up some confusion in my mind.  I guess what I was doing was trying to figure out on MY own effort which it was.  I forgot the Spirit is who will show me.

  Got a question for you Kat, So can a Scripture be pysically interpreted one day and then spritual the next day?  Can they be both another day? 

  Sincerely,




  Anne C. McGuire

[brothertoall]

Anne that is a very good question. Does Ray have anything on that and if so where might it be?

bobby

[Kat]

Hi Anne,

I'm thinking that maybe you can see it physical one day and then spiritual another, if it is in relation to time.
We see things in scripture as only physical one day, before our eyes are opened, and it is a true meaning.
As in keeping the Sabbath, we see it commanded, it is a physical thing we do by going to church.
But on another day, later, our eyes are opened and we see the spiritual, that we are in a sabbath rest all the time,
if Christ is in us.

Heb 4:9  So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God,
v. 10  for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.

So it can be looked at physical one day and spiritual another day, in the life of a believer.
I hope I answered that the way you were implying it 

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[rrammfcitktturjsp]

Kat,

  I like how you said that it could be different one day and change the next day.  I have found out in my life that Scripture means different things with difference circumstances and days.  Now, the basics to not change, just wanted to make it clear.
 

  I am glad that it can be this way, becuase I was concerned as the way that Scripture was speaking to me was changing.  Thanks so much for you reply.  It has helped a great deal.

  Sincerely,



  Anne C. McGuire

 

[longhorn]

Dosen't every single parable tell a physical story with a much more valuable "Spiritual" meaning?

Longhorn

[brothertoall]

But if we are being revealed or have been revealed these truths then why would the use of that scripture be used literally? If the word is spirit then why would,lets say an answer from the mature, be used literally?

I have seen it done here and like I said I have been guilty myself of this. I am far from mature so I guess I know why I have done it but it is confusing to me when I see it come from more mature than many of us here.

Still confused.

bobby

[Deborah-Leigh]

 Why can't they understand?
« on: January 17, 2007, 04:39:45 PM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Dear Ray

        I was browsing your website for the first time today and got caught up in some of the debate and critiques, and left feeling a bit perturbed. I am an elder in a small local church, and we do our best to live our lives before God and to turn peoples' heart back to Jesus through relationship, preaching and example in a urban / rural African context. As much as I enjoy intellectual and theological discussion I do not consider myself well studied in scripture. After examining the reasons for my feeling uncomfortable with the lengthy debate which you and your respondents commit to, I came to the conclusion that such matters, although important theologically, are beyond the understanding of most people on earth who have not been exposed to sufficient education or biblical teaching.

        I have been blessed with considerable education (not in theology), yet I battle to keep on top of these basic issues that seem to tear at my faith. I happen to enjoy reading and trying to get to the bottom of an issue to form a standpoint, but I can't imagine that these debates will ever be understood by the majority of people who are uneducated and do not look at life through intellectual lenses (no disrespect intended). Surely the millions of unbelievers that God wants the church to reach will not be persuaded that Jesus is their King by such intellectual debate, especially as it seems to bring division more than unity.

        I wonder what the ordinary members of the early church, as described in Acts, did on a day to day basis as they went and preached the word as they knew it. They didn't get involved in deep theology and extensive debate, but simply preached their testimony and what they had seen, built relationally, and operated with spiritual authority and power as led by the Holy Spirit. This is not a criticism of the debate you stimulate, but an observation. Paul raised a bunch of 'higher' theological issues with the churches but I would guess that these were not on the radar of most unbelievers or new converts.

        The question I have rolling around in me is why are the very basics of our faith; heaven and hell, salvation and others, subject to so much confusion (in me anyway). Surely God would want these basics to be absolutely clear and not open to debate.

        Kind regards

        Richard     
     

        Dear Richard:

        Absolutely, God did not want the masses and multitudes to understand His Truths. That is why Jesus gave all His public ministry through impossible to understand parables that not even the Apostles understood. And that is why God's truths are like great treasures that must be searched long and hard to acquire.  Only, "the wise shall understand" (Dan. 12:10), and that wisdom has absolutely nothing to do with "intellectuality."  The entire Christian community of theologians would absolutely laugh anyone to scorn who would suggest that L. Ray Smith is an "intellectual."  Be sure to read my opening paper at the top of our home page "YOU FOOLS! YOU HYPOCRITES! YOU SNAKES!" for a better understanding of this topic, also my paper "Twelve Truths to Understand God's Word."  Even Peter confessed that Paul wrote things that for most people were "hard to understand" ( II Pet. 3:16).

        God be with you,

        Ray

[Craig]

Thou shalt not commit adultry.

Literal interpretation; having sex with a person who is not your spouse.  That is literal everyone understands it as such.

If you even look at a woman with lust in your heart you've commited adultry;  that is a spiritual interpretation.  And the spritual can go deeper still, and apply to all type of sin.  Do you cheat your brother?....No, well have you ever thunk it?  Have you ever murdered?.....No, well have you thought about it?  I think you can see where I'm going.

Lets use sin as an example,
The spiritual does not lessen the literal interpretation of a sin.  Having love and compassion for our fellow man over any sin is a gift from God, if any of us were in that persons position we would be doing the same (we could all be a Hitler).  What we can do in this life is to recognize our sins and let Christ work them out of us.  We don't have to judge a brother or sister over a sin, but we can know what sin is and help them to overcome it if they want our help, if they don't, then let them know we are there for them if they need us.

These are very deep spiritual subjects and I'm not sure you folks will find an answer that satisfies you here.  Nobody is a teacher, especially the mods.  We can give our help and our opinion and refer you to Ray's interpretation of topics, but we can't give you all the answers, or any for that matter, about any subject.   A more mature member does not mean a more perfect member, they may have a grasp on one topic but wrestle with others.  It took me about 18 months for the free will subject to really sink in and if I was questioned over it, there is no way that I feel qualified to teach it to anyone.

I feel that understanding Gods word is a gift that he gives, just like the other spiritual and literal gifts he bestows.  If we try to force the understanding on our own then we will fail just like we fail at anything where it is God that needs to work through us.

Blessings
Craig

[brothertoall]

Ok but does not adultry have a spiritual truth than the act of doing it? You see i guess what i am getting at here is that do we ourselves use the scripture literally to justify a belief and then maybe use that same scripture to go into a more spiritual meaning.Jesus told the crowd they were an adultress generation, Does that mean they all committed adultry with one another or was He referencing that they were spiritually commiting adultry with God.

Matthew 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

It seems to me that there is no half truth when it comes to the Word of God. It is either one or the other ,half truths do not make full truths nor do half lies make full truths.

Is this not what babylon has and still does? i have read the papers on bible truths and Ray makes it a point that it is all spiritual and not to be taken Literally.

Does anyone out there understand what i am trying to say or ask? Please post a response. it would be nice to hear what others have to say on this issue. the regulars always respond and I am very thankful for that but I would like to hear from some of our other members here.

thank you very much.

bobby

[Craig]

Is this not what babylon has and still does? i have read the papers on bible truths and Ray makes it a point that it is all spiritual and not to be taken Literally.

I'm sure you are right about what you are saying, but for my benefit can you point me to the paper where he states this?

Craig