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[brothertoall]

Craig I will try and find it but it may take a while. it would be a nice jester and a big help if the Mods also would help me to find this as well as the others viewing this topic.

bobby

[Kat]

Hi Bobby,

I found a couple of emails that seem to apply to this subject.

http://bible-truths.com/email13.htm#guidance

[Ray Replies]

Dear Walter:

The level of understanding that I personally possess is not necessarily what your goal should be. You should desire to have the understanding of Jesus Christ.

Now then, is there a "reading list" as you suggest that will give you this understanding? NO.

Will taking courses at a theological seminary (as you suggested) give you this understanding? NO.

Will reading and studying dozens of Bible Dictionaries and Bible Commentaries give you this understanding? NO.

Will reading the Bible ITSELF give you this spiritual understanding. NO

Well where pray tell does it come from? It comes from the Spirit of God IN US--having the very MIND OF CHRIST IN US.

How do we get that? Repent & OBEY the gospel! "A good understanding have all they that DO His commandments." There are hundreds and hundreds of spiritual commandments in the New Testament Scriptures. You must OBEY those commandments. All of my writing are designed to help people better understand this commandments. That's why God has teachers. I personally try to obey ALL OF GODS SPIRITUAL COMMANDMENTS in the New Testament. I repent of my SINS.  I BEG God for spiritual understanding and spiritual obedience and spiritual LOVE for God and for all humanity.

Do these things ALL day, EVERY day, and God will give you understanding--I GUARANTEE IT!

God be with you,

Ray

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2300.0.html

   Dear Lloyd:
    It is a little frustrating for me too, that thousands of people have come to me as you are doing, asking me how they can have great faith, freedom from all sins, doubts, financial, and health problems, get saved, understand all Scripture, etc., etc., etc.  In other words: "Ray, please explain to me ALL THE MYSTERS OF LIFE in one short email."  It can't be done, Lloyd. I have written nearly 2000 pages of material by now, and I doubt that you have read much of it. You want the answers, but you want them neatly packaged in a one page email. It don't happen, Lloyd.  Do you think that I woke up one morning and instantly knew all that I know now?  I am wrestling with a couple of points right now in the Scriptures. Most wouldn't see the problem if I explained it to them.  There are keys (as in Jesus gave Peter "the KEYS to the Kingdom."  Unfortunately, He did not spell them out to all of us.  Someone recently wrote hundreds of pages of commentary on the Book of Revelation thinking that they had unlocked all the mysteries of Revelation and prophecy.  The whole premise of their commentary was totally wrong and unscriptural.
     
    You will never in this life grasp all of the mysteries of God or the Scriptures.  But to those who search out her pages like real hidden treasure, God opens up our understanding. I can not give you that in an email. I cannot prove to you that I have the key to all truth. God will have to reveal to you whether the things I teach are true and according to the intent of the writers of Scripture or not.  One thing I can and have done over and over again, is show how utterly silly and often evil and unscriptural most of what is taught by Christendom and self-appointed vanity filly prophets of the Scriptures.
     
    As you pray and obey and study, God will open things up to your understand, and at that moment whole sections of revelation will flood your mind. But not all Scripture---just sections of Scripture: here at truth and there a truth, and then they start to all come together and a bit picture presents itself to our spiritual understanding.  I get asked this question all day long Lloyd, but only God can give you the answer. All I can do is encourage you to not give up.
     
    God be with you,
    Ray
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hope this helps.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[brothertoall]

I found this in the http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm


Are we to believe that in a few hours Jesus read to them the entire 39 books, 929 chapters, 23,145 verses of the Old Testament, with commentary and explanations? No, of course not. He taught them a principle, a spiritual truth, whereby they could understand all the Scriptures that pertained to Him.

The spiritual resurrected Jesus Christ does not represent the physical house of David, or the physical Tribe of Judah, or the physical nation of Israel. Jesus Christ is Spirit and His words are spirit. "As Jesus is, so are we" means that those who are spiritually (composed of almost exclusively Gentiles in this Church era) are the true Jews—not national Israel and Judah. National Israel and Judah are going into the Great White Throne of Judgment in the second resurrection during the period of the Lake of Fire. They will NOT be grafted into Jesus, the Tree of Life, before then. Jesus fulfilled all that is written in the Law of Moses and all the prophets—it ALL pertains to Jesus, and thus it all pertains to us (‘upon whom the ends of the ages are come,’ I Cor. 10:11).

Everything from Genesis to Revelation pertains to a higher SPIRITUAL meaning than the physical examples, parables, metaphors, allegories, stories and symbols in which they are written. "Let us make man in Our Image" (Gen. 1:26) are words of SPIRIT: "…Surely I come quickly…" (Rev. 22:20) are words of SPIRIT. God does not look like a six-foot man or a five-foot woman. Jesus comes quickly to us, not to the world.

Thanks Kat and this section is only a part of some good stuff.

 craig what did you find? Anyone else find anything?

bobby

[Craig]

I'm looking, the word you used  "it is all spiritual and not to be taken Literally" throws me, because I can't recall ever seeing that.  I remember the things you found, the literal has a higher spiritual meaning, thats what I was trying to show with the adultry post.  But I don't recall that all is not to be taken literally.

Still looking

Craig

[brothertoall]

Craig you know very well that Ray made the comment THE WHOLE BIBLE IS A PARABLE. I would say that pretty much covers it ALL.I found the email and it is posted below. It can also be found by searching the word "parable". Glad I could help. The word bolding is my doing.

bobby


 Parable
« on: December 30, 2006, 06:06:17 PM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi ray,

Thanks for the encouragement.. can you tell me what you mean when you say all of the scriptures are a parable?

Thanks,

Dave


Dear Dave:

Well, not really, not in less than a hour or so, but I'll give you a hint. God is the Creator. He made everything. He made everthing for a purpose. There is one grand goal that God has for the entire human race. The Christian Church has not a CLUE as to what that goal is or how it will be accomplish. The whole plan and purpose is outlined in the Scriptures. But just as NONE of the people who heard Jesus teach in parables, understood His parables, so the Whole Bible is one GIANT parable which the Church does not understand. In a nutshell:  God is creating the human race into HIS VERY OWN SPIRITUAL IMAGE.  Oh, I thought that already was accomplished back in the Garden, wasn't it?  I told you it's all one GIANT PARABLE!
God be with you,

Ray

[DWIGHT]

When you ask the question, "when is scripture literal and when is it spiritual," do you mean when is scripture literal when I want it to be literal and when I want it to be spiritual?  If that is the real question, then we are all guilty because the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit.  The answer to this very difficult question has to be found in Christ and in Him alone.  The words that I speak to you are spirit.  They cannot be seen with the human eye.  How many times have we read a chapter or verse and never really understood it.  Then one day that same chapter or verse becomes clear as crystal or you see something in that you never saw before?  When Peter told Jesus that He is the Christ the Son of the living God, Jesus said flesh and blood hath not revealed unto thee but My Father which is in heaven.

When we read the scriptures with our mind, we see absolutely nothing but we get deceived and think that we know something and then use it for our own interpretation.  But when God reveals it to us it is life and truth.  Like the two trees in the garden of Eden, one tree led to their death and the other Tree led to life.  It just depends on which tree we eat; we can eat of good and evil or we can eat of life.  Jesus said, except you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no part in me.  How do we eat Him and how do we drink Him?  Only one way...in spirit and in truth.  Where is that to be found?  The words that speak to you, they are spirit and they are truth.  The only words that we have from Jesus are the scriptures.  But we must be careful because even Satan knows the scriptures and even tempted our Lord with them. 

Look at all of us these past months and all that God has revealed to us...are we worthy?  No.  But for some reason, it pleases our merciful God to reveal them to us by His Spirit.  How many thousands have read Ray's papers and have not seen a thing.  Blessed are our eyes for we are seeing things that even the prophets desired to look into.  May the Lord continue to open our eyes by His Spirit!  The literal profits nothing.

In His Name,

Dwight

[Craig]

Yes, I know Ray stated that (and I agree) but I'm still looking for where he says ""it is all spiritual and not to be taken Literally"  or close to it.

I'm searching his revelations emails and papers because he might have said somethig similiar about that book, can't find it yet though.

I've put Ray's entire Lake series into one large pdf file, I'm going to start trying word searches.

Let me know if you find it first.

Craig

[Craig]

I emailed our question to Ray.  Here is his response.

> Ray,
>
> Do you remember stating this in your papers? A member understands that
> you make this statement, and I can't find or remember it.
>
> Literal and spiritual interpretations was discussed.
>
> "i have read the papers on bible truths and Ray makes it a point that it
> is all spiritual and not to be taken Literally."

>
> I know that the literal things have higher spiritual interpritations,
> but does that take away from the literal?
>
> Craig


Craig:

I may have stated something within a certain context, such as the "lake of fire"

is all spiritual and not to be taken literally, but I don't think that I have ever made

such a general blanket statement regarding the whole Bible, even though I have

stated that the whole Bible is one giant parable. I do not believe that Spiritual

Noah, built a spiritual ark, and took spiritual animals aboard, to save them from

spiritual water, and that the ark then rested on a spiritual mountain.

God be with you,

Ray

[brothertoall]

 Parable
« on: December 30, 2006, 06:06:17 PM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi ray,

Thanks for the encouragement.. can you tell me what you mean when you say all of the scriptures are a parable?

Thanks,

Dave


Dear Dave:

Well, not really, not in less than a hour or so, but I'll give you a hint. God is the Creator. He made everything. He made everthing for a purpose. There is one grand goal that God has for the entire human race. The Christian Church has not a CLUE as to what that goal is or how it will be accomplish. The whole plan and purpose is outlined in the Scriptures. But just as NONE of the people who heard Jesus teach in parables, understood His parables, so the Whole Bible is one GIANT parable which the Church does not understand. In a nutshell:  God is creating the human race into HIS VERY OWN SPIRITUAL IMAGE.  Oh, I thought that already was accomplished back in the Garden, wasn't it?  I told you it's all one GIANT PARABLE!
God be with you,

Ray

PARABLE:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable

bobby

[hillsbororiver]

Bobby,

Was Christ really crucified or is that not to be taken literally?


His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[Sorin]

I am a bit confused though as to what Ray means by "The Whole Bible Is One Giant Parable".  I mean Parables are not literally true, so if that's the case, then why take anything in the bible literally? And that includes, God and Jesus and everything else. If they're part of a parable, then they're not literally true, therefore they don't literally exist. Neighter did Paul or Noah or Adam and Eve etc...

Now, I don't think that's what Ray is saying, but I just don't understand what he means by that.

[Craig]

Sorin,

I can't speak for Ray, but I think all he means is that the whole bible has a deeper spiritual meaning than what most carnal minded people (that included me) can see.   

Craig

[Kat]

Hi Sorin,

I agree with Craig.
I think what Ray means is that every single thing that is in the Bible,
has a spiritual lesson behind it.
But all the spiritual meaning to everything is only revealed to those whom God has given eyes to see it.
Everybody can see the literal reality of thing in the Bible, but only a few can understand these spiritual Truths.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[hillsbororiver]

I am a bit confused though as to what Ray means by "The Whole Bible Is One Giant Parable".  I mean Parables are not literally true, so if that's the case, then why take anything in the bible literally? And that includes, God and Jesus and everything else. If they're part of a parable, then they're not literally true, therefore they don't literally exist. Neighter did Paul or Noah or Adam and Eve etc...

Now, I don't think that's what Ray is saying, but I just don't understand what he means by that.

Sorin,

Did you see my question about Christ being crucified? Keeping that in mind what is this verse saying?


Mat 10:38  And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.


Does this mean we are to begin toting a wooden cross around as we go through our daily routines?


We know that this verse means that our carnal nature is to be crucified with Him, that we die to self so He can live in us.


His death was real and literal our crucifiction is spiritual, this is how it is a parable.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

Yeah, that's why I said: " I don't think that's what Ray means by that"

Basically, the whole bible is one giant parable because...... it's written for our admonition and it has a deeper spiritual meaning than just the literal. And basically, we eighter were, or are in {spirutal} Egypt, and God will eventually get us out of there etc...

Basically, all the things that happened in the bible to the Jews, or to the Apostles etc... have to spiritualy happen to us?  We have to be {spirtually} blinded on our roads to Demascus and all that?  I mean parables, have a messgage, a purpose for telling it. You learn from it. So is that basically what Ray is getting at?

Yes, you got it.

And I understand that the bible has a deeper, spiritual meaning than just what's literaly written in it, but is "parable" { a fictitious narrative} the right choice of words?

There is more to the definition than a "(symbolically) ficticious narrative."

parable 4912


H4912
משׁל
mâshâl
maw-shawl'
Apparently from H4910 in some original sense of superiority in mental action; properly a pithy maxim, usually of a metaphorical nature; hence a simile (as an adage, poem, discourse): - byword, like, parable, proverb.



parable 3850


G3850
παραβολή
parabolē
par-ab-ol-ay'
From G3846; a similitude (“parable”), that is, (symbolically) fictitious narrative (of common life conveying a moral), apoth gm or adage: - comparison, figure, parable, proverb.


parable 3942

G3942
παροιμία
paroimia
par-oy-mee'-ah
From a compound of G3844 and perhaps a derivative of G3633; apparently a state alongside of supposition, that is, (concretely) an adage; specifically an enigmatical or fictitious illustration: - parable, proverb.

The following are the definitions of the definitions 

adage

a condensed but memorable saying embodying some important fact of experience that is taken as true by many people [syn: proverb]

maxim

1. an expression of a general truth or principle, esp. an aphoristic or sententious one: the maxims of La Rochefoucauld. 
2. a principle or rule of conduct.

metaphor
 
A figure of speech in which a word or phrase that ordinarily designates one thing is used to designate another, thus making an implicit comparison, as in "a sea of troubles" or "All the world's a stage" (Shakespeare).
One thing conceived as representing another; a symbol: "Hollywood has always been an irresistible, prefabricated metaphor for the crass, the materialistic, the shallow, and the craven" (Neal Gabler).

simile

A figure of speech in which two essentially unlike things are compared, often in a phrase introduced by like or as, as in "How like the winter hath my absence been" or "So are you to my thoughts as food to life" (Shakespeare).

I hope this helps,

Joe

[Deborah-Leigh]

 
Bobby you ask :
Does anyone out there understand what i am trying to say or ask? Please post a response. it would be nice to hear what others have to say on this issue.

Here is what I see you are saying:

…….depending on the topic of the day many scripture verses have been used. Some seem to use it as meaning literally and others seem to use it as spiritually…… have been guilty of this myself.

I would not apply the word guilt to this…..that for me is too strong a word besides which it also carries a critical charge for misdemeanor which I do not think applies here. 
 
…..the regulars always respond and I am very thankful for that but I would like to hear from some of our other members here.

Please explain what  you mean here Bobby….you are thankful but…..do you mean it is a nice day but the house burnt down or I think you are great but….? I am thankful but......For me the word BUT has a way of cancelling out what preceeds it....What do you literally or spiritually mean by “but….. It is always wonderful to have participation from others who may not feel that they can contribute towards building understanding wisdom and knowledge of God.  Just because I have been pretty regular in the Forum does not mean that I think I can give anything of any value from myself. It is only God who can open eyes and minds and only HIS Spirit can give anyone anything of value.  I speak literally!

 Here is an excerpt that comes to mind for this discussion and I literally hope it helps spiritually!


GOD IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ETERNAL FATE OF AFRICANS
A Sermon by:
James Kennedy, A.B., M.Div., M.Th., D.D.,
D.Sac.Lit., PhD., Litt.D., D.Sac.Theol., D. Humane Let.
A Critique by:  L. Ray Smith


RELATIVE VS. ABSOLUTE
If a theologian can't see the "absolute" versus the "relative" in Scripture, he is in no position to teach anyone.
A little boys asks: "Why did God say in Gen. 3:9: 'Where art thou [Adam]?' Mommy says that God knows everything." (I Jn 3:20). You say, "Of course God knew where Adam was. Adam sinned. Adam felt bad. He thought he could hide from God. God was condescending to man's level. It was for Adam's benefit that God asked, 'Where art thou Adam?'" You say, "That's not a problem. That's easy to understand and answer. It's stupid to think that God didn't know where Adam was."
And, of course, we have Scriptural proof that God knew where Adam was because "He [God] knows all" (I Jn 3:20)
Neither did our Lord ask questions out of ignorance:
"Believe ye that I am able to do this?" (Matt. 9:28)
"Who is my mother, and who are my brethren?" (Matt. 12:48)
"How many loaves have ye?" (Matt. 15:34)
"Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?" (Matt. 116:13)
Christ asked dozens of questions during His ministry. But He already knew all the answers:
" ... because of His knowing ALL men ... " (Matt. 21:27).
Christ even answered questions by asking questions. The Pharisees asked why His disciples transgressed the "traditions." Our Lord knew how to "answer a fool according to his folly" (Prov. 26:5) by asking: "Wherefore are you also transgressing the precept of God because of your tradition?" (Mat. 15:3)
This brings up another apparent contradiction, however, because Prov. 26:4 says: "answer not a fool according to his folly ... " Our Lord knew how to do that as well: "Neither am I telling you by what authority I am doing these things." (Mat. 21:27). These two scriptures in Proverbs should teach us to never pit one verse of Scripture against another. Verse 4 and 5 do not contradict. They are both true.
So if it's stupid to think that God didn't really know where Adam was, a relative statement condescending to man's level, isn't it then, likewise, stupid to believe that God contradicts Himself in the following verses:
 
THE RELATIVE:   THE ABSOLUTE:
" ... seek, and ye shall find ... " (Mat. 7:7)   "Not one is seeking out God" (Rom. 3:11)
"God changed His mind" (Ex. 32:14)   "God is not a man Who changes His mind" (I Sam. 15:29)
" ... choose you this day whom ye will serve." (Josh. 24:15)   "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you ... " (Jn. 15:16)
" ... whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God ... " (I Jn. 3:10)   "All is of God" (II Cor. 5:18)
"Zechariah was just before God" (Lk. 1:5) (Comparing him to the corrupt priests)   "Not one is just" (Rom. 3:10) (Comparing man with God)
 
One is the "relative" the other is the "absolute." One is from man's point of view, comparing men with men, the other is from God's point of view. One shows how a thing is perceived while the other shows how it actually is. One is for minors while the other is for the mature.
Both Scriptures are true. The relative is true and the absolute is true. They do not contradict. However, one really is "relative" while the other is "absolute."
Theologians are always taking Scriptures that speak of the relative, from man's point of view, and insist that these verses are absolute. By doing this they commit a double sin. Because then they insist that these relative truths actually nullify God's absolute declarations. They won't admit to this in their own words, but this is what they do when they retain the "relative" at the expense of rejecting the "absolute."


Peace to you

Arcturus

[brothertoall]

When you ask the question, "when is scripture literal and when is it spiritual," do you mean when is scripture literal when I want it to be literal and when I want it to be spiritual?  If that is the real question, then we are all guilty because the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit.  The answer to this very difficult question has to be found in Christ and in Him alone.  The words that I speak to you are spirit.  They cannot be seen with the human eye.  How many times have we read a chapter or verse and never really understood it.  Then one day that same chapter or verse becomes clear as crystal or you see something in that you never saw before?  When Peter told Jesus that He is the Christ the Son of the living God, Jesus said flesh and blood hath not revealed unto thee but My Father which is in heaven.

When we read the scriptures with our mind, we see absolutely nothing but we get deceived and think that we know something and then use it for our own interpretation.  But when God reveals it to us it is life and truth.  Like the two trees in the garden of Eden, one tree led to their death and the other Tree led to life.  It just depends on which tree we eat; we can eat of good and evil or we can eat of life.  Jesus said, except you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no part in me.  How do we eat Him and how do we drink Him?  Only one way...in spirit and in truth.  Where is that to be found?  The words that speak to you, they are spirit and they are truth.  The only words that we have from Jesus are the scriptures.  But we must be careful because even Satan knows the scriptures and even tempted our Lord with them. 

Look at all of us these past months and all that God has revealed to us...are we worthy?  No.  But for some reason, it pleases our merciful God to reveal them to us by His Spirit.  How many thousands have read Ray's papers and have not seen a thing.  Blessed are our eyes for we are seeing things that even the prophets desired to look into.  May the Lord continue to open our eyes by His Spirit!  The literal profits nothing.

In His Name,

Dwight

Dwight you have hit the nail on the head. Thank you brother. It is the Spirit that will give us the spiritual understanding. Not just in my flesh to pick and choose what scripture I can use to justify my selfish way of thinking. Hey I have a long way to go so prayers would be very much appreciated and I will pray for you all as well.

 Arcturus I did not mean anything disrespectfdul or mean by that word "but". I would really like to know what the other members here think. I always enjoy and learn from all here but it just seems that maybe the other members here that seldom post or just read may feel a little intimidated and if I have made any of them feel that way please forgive me.

 I do believe that God is working in all of us here and I really would appreciate and be blessed to know what the others are experiencing. I do believe all of us here should want that too.

bobby

[brothertoall]

Bobby,

Was Christ really crucified or is that not to be taken literally?


His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

Of course it is literal Joe but I new that before being revealed the truth. It is the Spiritual I now see in all this Joe. Even Babylon knows it was literal but they are not seeing the spiritual.


Romans 8:1-16


1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

 4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:



Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


bobby

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Bobby,

I am glad to hear you that you see that the literal events have an application to understanding the deeper spiritual truths that they illustrate and represent. 

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[ciy]

The old covenant was physical, the new covenant is spiritual.  The new covenant over rules the old.  You must become a new creation in order to see and hear the new.  It all is physical until you have eyes to see and ears to hear and then it becomes spiritual to you.

As a man thinkeths in his heart so is he.

 First the flesh Adam, translating it in the physical, then the spirit Adam, a quickening spirit.  When Jesus came to the wedding and there was not enough spirit or wine then he took the word (water) that they had been disregarded as anything other than water (dead letter) and when Jesus touched it he turned it to wine (spirit).  Just like that parable, whatever Jesus says do it and the scriptures will all be turned into spiritual and not some worn out physical meaning. 
Hope this is ok to post.
CIY