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The Law
Mickyd:
I've been in an exchange with a friend of mine over some of the Biblical truths that we've learned here...well one thing lead to another until he brought in another person whos thinking I can't really understand. I don't know if he's a Messianic Jew or what...but I know he's using the Messianic Bible for his argurments. I could really use some help here folks!!! His remarks are in "Quotes"
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." Matt 5:17
--- Quote ---Fulfill means to "obey" or to "show how to obey". If it meant to complete, then why does He continue this verse by saying, "not one jot or tittle will pass"?
Because He was saying, "I have come to show you people how to truly live in accordance with Torah, because I am the Living Torah". Read John 1 for proof that Yeshua IS the Torah! The living Torah, and this book is The Written Torah. These two are one and the same. Yeshua is the Torah made manifest in flesh!
--- End quote ---
Do you believe Yeshua "fulfilled" the Law or not?
--- Quote ---Of course He obeyed Yah's Law! That was one of the reasons why He came!
--- End quote ---
"For Christ is the consummation of law for righteousness to everyone who is believing." Rom 10:4
--- Quote ---That's right, He is The Law, the very meaning of The Written Torah, except that He is in the flesh! He is the Torah made manifest in flesh!
--- End quote ---
So that
"For ALL THE LAW is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Gal 5:14
--- Quote ---This is also right, all the Law can be obeyed with 2 commandments, Love Yah (Thus you will desire to obey all Laws pertaining to Him) and love your neighbor as yourself (Then you won't want to steal, cheat or harm him in anyway either). Thus, all the law is fulfilled (obeyed) as soon as you learn to truly do those two things. Love Yah and Love your neighbor as yourself;"
--- End quote ---
and
"Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He TAKETH AWAY the first, that he may establish the second." Heb 10:9
--- Quote ---Yes but don't take that out of context. The first law will not be completed until:
1) The lion lays down with the lamb(Is 11:6-10)
2) The Torah is put on hearts and minds of the elect (chosen ones) (Jer. 31:31-34)
3) Yeshua's enemies are made a footstool under His feet(Heb 1:13).
In the meantime, Yeshua sits at the right hand of Yah the Father. (Heb. 1:!3) The Law was a shadow of the good things to come.
That's right... "To come" not yet here, rather still to come!
--- End quote ---
"For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can NEVER with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect." Heb 10:1
--- Quote ---That's right... "To come" not yet here, rather still to come! The New Covenant is currently in the process of being fulfilled. The spring feasts have been fulfilled, the autumn feasts have not. After they are fulfilled, the New Covenant will be fulfilled. More on this below.
--- End quote ---
"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that NO MAN is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith." Gal 3:10 - 11
--- Quote ---The beginning part that says," For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse", what does that mean? Does it mean to do wrong otherwise you will be punished? Of course not. This is what it means.
All men have sinned. All men have fallen short. If any man thinks that he has never sinned, or that his obedience to Torah will save him.... guess what, he is under a curse. Why, because he is like the Torah teachers in Matthew 9:13. He is over estimating himself and his compliance to Torah. He is not looking at his life from YHWH's point of view. Even if he never sins (violates Torah) again from this day on, the damage has already been done because he has sinned (violated Torah) in the past. That is why this verse continues, "No man is justified by the law". Everyone has sinned at some point in their life, and the wages for that sin is death. There is only one hope that mankind has, and I will tell it to you now:
To admit that you are a sinner (a violate of Torah) to YHWH, trust in the blood of Yeshua to pay the price for past violations of Torah, and then repent (Change into a Torah doer) in other words, obey Torah. When you obey Torah, you do not intentionally sin!
--- End quote ---
So..... trying to keep the old law (any part of it) is to suggest Yeshua did NOT fulfill it.....because if one believes he did fulfill the law, why would he tempt God by trying to keep that which Yeshua fulfilled, unless He secretly thinks his fulfillment of the law is not sufficient?
--- Quote ---First, what is the "Old Law"? There is and always will be only one Law, YHWH's Law. For proof of this read Jer. 31:31-34 again. I will put my Torah on their hearts and in their minds. It doesn't say that He will put a "New Torah", it say's He will put "His Torah" on my heart and my mind. If you can find one piece of evidence that there is a new Torah coming, I would love to see it. The fact is that the same Torah that has always been, will always be.
Second, Yeshua did not end the Law. He obeyed it and showed us the perfect example of perfect obedience. Fulfill means to obey.
I know that Yeshua did obey the Law, but the writer of the above paragraph seems to think that Yeshua ended the Law. If that were the case then Matthew 5:17 says, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to end it." Matt 5:17
Does that make any sense whatsoever? No!
Third, you say if someone believes Yeshua "why would he tempt God by trying to keep that which Yeshua fulfilled" what logic is in this? You make it sound like it is wrong to do right! Do you really think that disobeying YHWH is a good thing? Yeshua was sent to forgive the sins in your past and any future UNINTENTIONAL sins! Not to give you a loop hole to continue doing wrong! That is legalistic!
--- End quote ---
UNBELIEF?
"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Heb 8:7 - 8
--- Quote ---This is a true statement. That days is coming (and is not yet here) as so many seem to think it is. You will know when that day arrives because:
1) Torah will be on my heart and mind. (Jer. 31:31-33)
***NOTE: Not a new Torah, just a New Covenant (Contract)!
2) Teaching Torah to others will not be a required because all people will know Torah instinctively. (Jer. 31:34)
--- End quote ---
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth ALL THE FULNESS of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of ALL principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, OR OF THE SABBATH DAYS: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." Col 2:8-17
--- Quote ---This is absolutely true! Let's start with the first sentence, "Beware, lest any man spoil you"
How would they do that?
"through philosophy and vain deceit". In other words, "Traditions of men" "after the rudiments of the world" "and not after Messiah"
Through philosophy, like saying that YHWH's Law is not required, thus blatantly opposing Yah's very own words!
Through vain deceit, in other word "empty lies". Lies such as saying that YHWH doesn't mind if you don't do what He says you are to do (Such as His Torah!)
Through Traditions of men, in other words putting man made practice above YHWH's Commands!
And note the last part "not after Messiah"! In other words, not doing as Messiah did, not LIVING TORAH!
Don't be fooled by such people!
Second sentence: "For in him" In Yeshua "dwelleth ALL THE FULNESS" lives the complete package "of the Godhead bodily" of YHWH! (In other words, in Yeshua, lived YHWH's perfect Torah)
Third sentence: "And ye are complete in him" in other words, "And you are perfect if you follow His example"
If you want me to go through line by line, let me know, send me an E-mail. Otherwise (for now) I am going to skip to the bottom portion.
Last part of this passage reads: "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, OR OF THE SABBATH DAYS: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."
It basically means this, "Do not let anyone tell you that you can disobey YHWH, by eating whatever your carnal heart or stomach desires and do not let them tell you that you are doing wrong by eating what YHWH's Torah allows. Do not drink blood even if the world says you can (common practice among pagan rituals), and do not worry if these same people tell you that you are not to drink something if YHWH's Torah is not contrary to such. Do not let anyone harass you because you no longer celebrate their pagan holidays of Christmas, Easter, Halloween or any other pagan ritual, and do not let them condemn you for following those Holy Days that YHWH has prescribed as everlasting (perpetual) commandments in Torah (Lev. 23). Do not follow these pagan inhabitants of your city when they tell you that Sunday is the true day of worship, and do not let them harass you for keeping YHWH's 4th commandment of the 7th day commandment. You see, you were once part of them, but now you are set apart! You were once like that, but now you are rescued! So don't go back to that lie! You're different now! So obey Yah's Torah!
One last thing..
Think about this: What if Abraham said, "Yes I know you want me to go and sacrifice Isaac and I completely trust you and love you. The thing is this, I can't sacrifice Isaac because he is my favorite son. I trust you and I really do love you, but actually obeying you.... well now your asking a lot. I can't do it".
Now I ask you, would Abraham had been found righteous because he trusted YHWH? You see, the Scripture does not say that Abraham was found righteous because he obeyed YHWH. He was found righteous because he trusted! But, Abrahams trust was manifested in him obeying! If you trust in YHWH and Yeshua, you will obey His Torah! Obedience is the manifested form of faith, just as Yeshua is the manifested flesh (or form) of Torah!
--- End quote ---
hillsbororiver:
Hi Mickyd,
I only have time for the first one (Matt 5:17) Rotherham's has fulfill(4137) as well as the KJV.
Strongs definition is;
G4137
πληρόω
plēroō
play-ro'-o
From G4134; to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.
I know that Messianic Jews are still looking at things in the physical sense so I would not be surprised they would see this verse differently.
I will try to get to more tomorrow.
His Peace and Wisdom to you Brother,
Joe
Pax Vobiscum:
Too bored tonight -- family is away and nothing on TV......
I am not sure just what kind of help you are requesting. Help with understanding? A couple of theological haymakers?
Here's what pops into my head (not very well thought-out, but perhaps enough to get you started):
1. Remember that Jesus was not starting "Christianity" as he preached and healed. He brought a new interpretation of Judaism -- He left Christianity to Paul et al.
2. Study the Logos as an emanation from the One. When Jesus is called the Logos, it is recalling an ancient construct. Go way back to the Oikumene through the Axial Age and into the first century. The Logos is a very old concept. If you don't bump into the emanation of Wisdom as you study, then keep going.
That should keep you busy for a while.
I love the sound of two immutable "Truths" colliding!
Peace
bobf:
So which of these would he suggest we obey?
Do we NOT PITY and render eye for eye, tooth for tooth? Or do we RESIST NOT evil?
Deuteronomy 19:19 Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you. 20 And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you. 21 And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
Matthew 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said [ABOVE], An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Do we VOW to God and keep it? Or do we vow NOT AT ALL?
Psalmns 76:11 Vow, and pay unto the LORD your God: let all that be round about him bring presents unto him that ought to be feared.
Mathew 5:33 Again, ye have heard [ABOVE] that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne.
The spirit of the Law and the letter of the law are CONTRARY to one another. The letter kills, the spirit gives life. The new testament is NOT letter + spirit. This new testament is "NOT OF the letter".
2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
The LETTER of the law will NOT be written on anyone's heart. Which would He write on our hearts: "Vow and keep" or "Vow not at all"?
2 Corinthians 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
It's not a mixture of old + new, letter + spirit. Only new. But ALL prefer the old for a while.
Luke 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. 38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved. 39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
Bradigans:
Has anybody ever heard of Donald Trump. Okay, if so you will understand that he loves buildings. I hear he has all kinds of building projects projected. With any of his buildings (eg; trump towers) there is or has been a blueprint. Did you know that once one of his buildings is up (eg; trump towers) the blueprint has been fulfilled, completed, and it's finished. Thus Jesus Christ said in Matthew 5:17 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. He said there's nothing you can add or subtract in John 19:30 because - It is finished. Now labor to enter into His eternal rest Hebrews 4:11. In reference to the law Hebrews 8:5 says - Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
IN HIS LOVE,
Bradford
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