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[hillsbororiver]

[Is your love pure or fake?]

I hear a lot of "huggie huggie kissie kissie" pious platitudes from the mouths of today’s religious hobbyists. Personally, it makes me a little ill in my midsection. Most of it is as phony as a three-dollar bill. Could you be guilty of using this emotional charade to deceive those you wish to impress?

There is nothing wrong with hugs, as I am quite fond of them myself. And there is nothing wrong with proper kissing. Paul instructs the assemblies to greet each with "an holy kiss" four times, and Peter instructs its use once, as a "kiss of charity."

The Greek word used is "philema." A "holy" kiss is merely a pure, sacred, ceremonial kiss—a simple kiss. Men no longer kiss men as a form of greeting non-family members in most western cultures—I’m personally kinda glad of that!

People also engage in "hugs and kisses" in their speech and writing. And this too can be fine and acceptable depending upon how it is done. At sixty-five, I still put a few xxxx’s and oooo’s at the bottom of a birthday card to my wife.

However, there is another way that hugs and kisses are used and overdone in which it is a camouflaged front to mask the real person that is no more holy than was Judas.

Had the twelve other Apostles already received the Holy Spirit of God, they would not have had to ask Jesus "who" is was that was about to betray Him—they would have known. Thank God that it is not possible to "deceive the very elect" (Matt. 24:24).

Like Satan’s ministers of righteousness (II Cor. 11:15), these deceivers are wolves, but they don’t come as wolves. These false teachers and deceivers:

"…come to you in SHEEP’S clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves" (Matt. 7:15).

But you could spot one of these "wolves" a mile off, couldn’t you? Just look for the GIANT TEETH that Little Red Riding Hood encountered, right?

"O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched [Gk: ‘to fascinate by false representations] you…" (Gal. 3:1).

The "wolves" COME IN SHEEP’S CLOTHING! You don’t see their teeth. They don’t show their teeth. They only show you a huggie huggie kissie kissie pious religious smile. THAT my friends, that pious front, IS the "sheep’s clothing." Wolves BITE, and their bite can be deadly:

"But if you bit and devour one another, take heed that you be not consumed one of another" (Gal. 5:15).

Now then, where are we to find these "wolves and sheep’s clothing" coming with hugs and kisses to deceive and devour? Well, wherever the SHEEP are found.

"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous [savage] wolves enter in among YOU, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men [and women] arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them" (Acts 20:29-30).

Didn’t we all witness this ourselves in recent months? Are all the wolves gone now? Of course not—there will always be wolves wherever there are sheep.

I’m warning you: Wolves come in "sheep’s clothing," full of smiles, and hugs, and kisses. You will not see their teeth until it is too lake.

Judas was a wolf in sheep’s clothing. The apostles saw a sheep—Jesus saw a wolf. What was Judas’ ultimate sheep’s camouflage? Why, wasn’t it a simple, sincere, pure, godly "kiss?" Think again.

"Now he that betrayed Him give them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, the same is He: hold Him fast. And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed Him" (Matt. 26:48-49).

You have all seen this drama acted out many times in films—a simple little peck on Jesus’ cheek. Oh really?

The five Scriptures using the word "kiss" from Paul and Peter, always used the Greek word "philema" which means "kiss" and nothing else. In Luke 22:48 we read this:

"But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betray you the Son of man with a kiss [Gk: a simple ‘philema’ kiss]?"

But in Matt. 26:48, we find something totally different. Judas told the elders and chief priest:

"…whomsoever I shall [PHILEO—passionate fondness] kiss, that same is He…"

Judas did not have a "philema" kiss in mind at all. The "kiss" in Matt. 26:48 is a "phileo" kiss, and it means a fond, affectionate, passionate kiss, not a simple "philemo kiss." And the elders and high priest knew the different in these two words. One was a peck on the cheek, but Judas determined to use a more a passionate, huggie huggie kissie kissie display in his attempt to betray Jesus to the devouring and ravaging wolves.

This is really intriguing stuff. Now after Judas tells the priest and elders what kind of a kiss he will give Jesus [a phileo kiss] to betray Jesus, He actually delivers this kiss. And how does he do that? He does it with yet another Greek word for kiss, which is, "kataphileo" mean "to kiss EARNESTLY."

This "kataphileo kiss" is used three other times in Scriptures:

Luke 7:45—"You gave me no kiss [no affectionate ‘phileo’ kiss, Jesus admonishes His disciples] but this woman since the time I came in has not ceased to kiss [‘kataphileo kisses’—earnestly] My feet."

Luke 15:20—"And he [the prodigal son] arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him [earnestly and passionately with a ‘kataphileo kisses’]."

Acts 20:37—"And they all wept sore, and fell on Paul’s neck, and kissed him [with ‘cataphileo kisses’ of great passion and earnest]."

Is it not abundantly clear that this super emotional use of hugs and kisses was used only on the most RARE occasions of deep and profound emotional circumstances? But this is not proper conduct for everyday behavior. See these over-pious charlatans for what they are. Be suspect of those who use super-pious and sanctimonious hugs and kisses every day of the week.

Now to the Judas Kiss of Death:

"And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, Master; and KISSED HIM."

The Greek is "kisses"—multiple kisses, with ‘kataphilio kisses, just as we find in every single use of this word in Scriptures I showed above.

No, Judas did not betray Jesus with a peck on the cheek; he deceitfully delivered a "huggie huggie kissie kissie, fraudulent hugs and KISSES OF DEATH!

What must we learn from all this? Whenever we pretend to be Christ-like but it’s all a charade, we too are guilty of giving Christ a Judas kiss of death. What a disgusting display of the carnal mind and flesh, Judas has left us. Some have vengeance in their heart, others vanity, others bitterness and hatred, and yet others uncontrollable sins of the flesh, but they try to camouflage their evils with a plethora of hugs and kisses to all.

Don’t be afraid to hug; don’t be afraid to kiss, but beware of such phony displays of pious emotions, as they could be your "KISS OF DEATH."

A spiritual hug to you all, from my heart,

Ray

[Redbird]

This was very timely, a humble thank you from the heart.

Lisa

[rrammfcitktturjsp]

Joe,

  Wow what a sobering thread.  I am very glad that it was posted tonight.  I pray that my kisses toward my husband and my son never turn into the Kisses of Death.

  I had never heard of Judas betraying Jesus with an affectionate kiss, wow that's powerful.  Thanks so much for sharing this,

  Sincerely,




  Anne C. McGuire

[Rene]

Hi Joe,

This is an excellent warning and reminder.  I pray that my brothers and sisters will stay spiritually alert and watchful at all times.
In addition, "The Kiss of Death" essay reminds me to check my conduct and actions when dealing with others.  I never want to be phony or deceitful when dealing with my brethren.

Rene'

[dogcombat]

I think the telling sign is when, say Robert Schuller, TELLS everyone to tell the person next to you "God Loves you and so do I".  As you really ponder it, UNLESS the pew sitters are TOLD to do a loving gesture like that,  they WOULDN'T do it period.  Especially when you see them during the week and they wish they could be anywhere but in your presence. 

When the Spirit leads us to greet someone with a hug or a kiss, you can bet your bottom dollar that it is Christ living in you that does the deed.

Ches

[iris]

Thank you so much Joe for sharing these thoughts with us.
It gives us a lot to think about.

Iris

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Joe

Since listening to Ray’s teaching on Love I have been considering the meaning of this word love in the Italian language. I am not Italian but the experiences that the Lord gave me to walk through took me to Rome thirty years ago, where I lived for three years.

During my time in Rome and as I struggled to understand the language I became aware of the fact that in Italian there are the two expressions
a)   “ I love you” …Ti Amo / phileo/  conditional two way love
b)    “I wish you well” Ti voglio bene/ Agape / unconditional one way love

Italians would use this expression interchangeabley when saying or meaning that you were loved or deeply appreciated, valued or adored.

Once I learnt the language sufficiently enough to communicate I could find NO ONE who could explain which form of saying I love you in Italian held the most significance. Not even Italians knew! So I had this question in my mind for over thirty years and it was never settled. I should have asked a Greek! Bible Truths was not around at that time. Finally, after over thirty years and at last Ray’s teaching on love has answered this question for me!

Ray points to the fact that  Gods word says we are to love God with all our heart mind and strength and then with the SAME kind of love Agape, to love our neighbours as our selves. Agape is not interchanged with Phileo. In Ray’s inimitable style, Ray brings to focus that while the LOVE is the same, the approach and intensity is DIFFERENT. We are not to love our neighbours with all our hearts and minds etc….only God is to be loved in this way. We are to love our neighbours as our selves. Are we to love ourselves with all our strength and all our might and mind and hearts? I don’t think so! Only God is to be loved this way! Scripture does not teach us to be lovers of our selves. ….how then do we love our selves?

I can  see how Ray, for example loves his e-mail correspondents. I have heard how he loves those who are mis-lead and are misleading or seeking to mislead others.  He rebukes and admonishes with  stringent terms by showing what god thinks and Ray does this kindly without vengence! That Ray spends a large part of his life exposing heresy and giving mislead blind people even the time of day and dignity of replying to some of their outlandish and sometimes offensive accusations and innuendoes I think  shows that Ray cares for others as he would care for himself if he were in their shoes. His stern admonitions and clear cutting observations as to where some of his detractors are standing in error, hypocrisy, self righteousness and deviousness, are  Ray’s responses to others as he would respond to himself  if he too were a cheating hypocrite and liar. Why does Ray answer some of his detractors with sarcasm and upbraiding admonishments? Because Ray strongly loves God.  It shows  in how Ray is treating his neighbours as himself were he to be in their darkness. The deeper the discerned darkness, the more blazing Ray’s response of rebuke and warning.

We all like to be treated with kindness and gentleness. The carnal mind does not like to be wrong or corrected.  When stringent correction, rebuke and admonition are required due to arrogant idol clinging worshipers of error and heresy blindly show off their deep seated hatred of God, then it is kindness and gentleness to refute the lies, uncover the double mindedness and expose deceit and deception. To be able to respond this way is efficient effective kindness in swift certain action. To do less is mealy mouthed apologetic sentimental approval seeking acquiescence to darkness.

Gal 1 : 10-12 Now am I trying to win the favour of men, or of God? Do I seek to please men? If I were still seeking popularity with men, I should not be a bond servant of Christ. 11. For I want you to know, brethren, that the Gospel which was proclaimed and made know by me is not man’s gospel, a human invention, according to or patterned after any human standard. 12.l For indeed I did not re3ceive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came to me through a direct revelation given by Jesus Christ.

These words of Paul sound to me as if they can also be claimed by Ray. Can I say these words fit me too? No, but I would like to grow up to the standard height of Christ’s mindedness to be able to fit into this garment of Godly righteousness. Can we say what Paul says and ring as true as how Ray can sound saying the same words. Who have I corrected? Who have I risked falling out with. Whose good books do I no longer need to be written into except for the one good book…the book of life. Can my name appear in both books? Can we have our cake and eat it. No. No not according to the scriptures for either one will serve mammon or God. So where is my name written? Do I still need humans to be friendly with me or am I fraternizing with the beast? If I look at how I answer others who are blind, who I know are blind, I will get my answer to how I am loving myself.

If I am in darkness would I not love for someone to at first show me the way out of my darkness and if I do not move would I not want to be kicked hard and fast out of my apathy and self aggrandising dependence?  Or would I prefer that people who pass my cave of mental blindness, to tip toe around it or be quiet and pass on buy ignoring the things I say out of my darkened state. No! I would want to see and hear the sound and presence of Jesus!

How do I love myself? Do I love the darkness more than the light? If I am going wrong I do not want someone to drag me into their cave but to show me the light of Gods words not of their cave and better accommodations of their minds and thoughts. I want Gods mind and thoughts!

The tug of war between carnal and spiritual is the war for agreement. No one needs to agree with anyone! We all have to agree with God.  If we see someone in a cave we have to shine the spot light of God into that darkness if we are to love that neighbour as our selves. What if we were in that cave and one of us walked by. Would we not want to feel some light?  If we are in the light and if we love the light we will shine this light and make it known that there is no Hell, there is not need for Tithing with scriptures not opinions or carnal interpretations, evaluations and assessments. If rejected then we have shone the light and can move on without getting into dark caves of opposition, debate and contention.

If we love God then we know that His word is the light. Ray is a ray of that light and as folks call to him from their caves of darkness and Ray answers, I see that Ray responds as though it were to himself if he were himself to have been in that darkness.  Darkness is at enmity with the light. That is why we should not turn down our lamps to go and commune with cave dwellers that would argue, contend and prod with their sticks and stones.  When you enter a cave with all the light blazing, you are going to see the stones and the sticks coming and this is perhaps why the elect are not deceived!

Matt 24 : 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise, and they will show great signs and wonders so as to deceive and lead astray, if it were possible even the elect.

Luke 21 : 8 …Be on your guard and be careful that you are not led astray; for many will come in My name, appropriating to themselves the name Messiah which belongs to ME………

Messiah is Hebrew and Christ is Greek.  According to Strongs Concordance these two terms mean “anointed”  In the Hebrew translation this anointing is described as “usually a consecrated person as a king, priest, or saint; spec. THE MESSIAH.

Jesus said that this name belongs to HIM. The anointing belongs to HIM. The Church claims to have this anointing. The Church assumes, imagines and takes for granted an imagined relationship with Jesus. It even preaches this relationship to be the be all and end all of salvation. It imagines that Jesus is in relationship to them because of their  signs and wonders and visions and imaginings. The Church, like Judas, proclaims a phileo love for Jesus. They sing praise to Jesus. They kiss Him and  bless Him and give Him glory. They assume fellowship and friendship with Christ and they claim authority and power of HIS NAME while they eat the meat of His lambs to purchase their jets and their limozines and their carnal structures that they claim is housing our living God’s Spirit. They are blind. Jesus does visit their halls as he also visited the pool of Bethesda with all the sick were gathered to jump into the water that they believed would be stirred up by an angel and produce healing once a year to the first body that entered the water once it was stirred. Jesus went into that den of sickness HE told only one to take up his bed a walk. I wonder if the day that Jesus went to the pool of Bethesda, whether the water stirred. I don’t think so. Jesus was there. It was He who stirred the water in the OT. He came to the pool and they recognised HIM NOT. Then He left! He did not stay! Jesus doesn’t stay in the Church.  He only visits to drag out from their membership the few who He chooses to come out.

The light of Christ is greater than the darkness and His ways are higher and His thoughts can be our thoughts  because He has given us His Word. This is our light.

To some who are hurt by the light, they will pick up sticks and stones while others less sick may see the light and find healing truth and honesty in it as we who have embraced the teachings on BT have individually experienced.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[YellowStone]

Arcturus

That was a wonderful post and I thank you for sharing your heartfelt thoughts.

I wish only to comment on a tiny piece and in no way am I correcting you, just offering a view from a different perspective

Arcturus wrote:  The tug of war between carnal and spiritual is the war for agreement. No one needs to agree with anyone! We all have to agree with God. 

I assume what you are saying here is that the spiritual minded person need never seek agreement with a carnal minded person.

Because we are given clear instruction that while we should ALWAYS be in agreement with God, we should also always be in like-minded between ourselves (true followers)

The following verses are my witness:

Rom 15:6 That ye may with one mind [and] one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.[/color

2Cr 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Phl 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Phl 2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, [being] of one accord, of one mind.

1Pe 3:8 Finally, [be ye] all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, [be] pitiful, [be] courteous:

Clearly we are to treat our spiritual brothers and sisters differently than our brothers in sisters of the world. This should not be difficult for most here, because we have been bitten by the wovles at least once. However, there will be times when "we" do not see eye to eye; Paul expected it, hence his instruction to this point.

So let us before we let our carnal pride get hurt, reach out to the other and seek a greater understanding of their view-point, in away that does not force ones point of view. Being in agreement with one another is ever so much more than simply believing "God is love!" Rather, being like-minded is being courteous and acting with compassion towards one another, promoting unified understanding. This will not only promote spiritual love amongst us, but also be pleasing to God.

Arcturus, that you have much to offer is a gross understatement!

Thanks again for your wonderful post!

Love,
Darren

[hebrewroots98]

Arcturus,
That is so neat that you had that opportunity to live in Italy.  How interesting that you have kept a question in your mind for over thrity years (and especially that you got an answer fianlly.)  I have had lingering questions like that for many, many years as well, infact, there are still some that I am sure will be answered before long!)

You said it perfectly when you stated how Ray gets down to the very deep level (of darkness) that alot of his emailers are at (spiritually speaking); thus, how Ray is able to reach them at their level since this is how Ray would want to be treated if he were at that spiritually dark level himself.  (Well said Arcturus when you stated  ...whose godd book do I no longer need to be written into except for the ONE GOOD BOOK, THE BOOK OF LIFE.  I have never heard it termed that way, I like it.  Thank you for the reminder to look inward to see if I  caring about wether humans are being friendly with me or wether i am flirting with the beast here.  I must admit that I can use a little work in this area.

And yes, 'the church' does claim to have 'the annointing' don't they!  I am thankful that YESHUA HAMESHIAC (JESUS THE MESSIAH (THE ANOINTED/RISEN ONE) had come into 'the church' where we were and HE  DRUG me and my family out of her!  I hope to live up to HIS selecting of me to become HIS ELECT EVENTUALLY.  

I (love) appreciate this post so much!! !

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Darren

What I mean is not important. Here is what the scriptures say to which I was refering when I made the comment you have placed under question.

Col 2 : 20 If then you have died with Christ to material ways of looking at things and have escaped from the world’s crude and elemental notions and teachings of externalism, why do you live as if you still belong to the world?
 
Gal 5 : 17 ...for the desires of the flesh are opposed to the Holy Spirit and the desires of the Spirit are opposed to the flesh, godless human nature; for these are antagonistic to each other, continually withstanding and in conflict with each other, so that you are not free but are prevented from doing what you desire to do.

You say : So let us before we let our carnal pride get hurt, reach out to the other and seek a greater understanding of their view-point,.....show me the scripture that supports this opinion of yours…..not the scripture you think says what you mean but the scripture that says what you say....that before we let our carnal prideget hurt, reach out to each other......to each other not to Jesus Christ!....Bring me one scripture that says that!......in away that does not force ones point of view. Being in agreement with one another is ever so much more than simply believing "God is love!"    

Believing God might be simple but it is not easy. It is a lifes work.

John 6 : 28,29, 35  They then said, What are we to do, that we may be working the works of God? 29 Jesus replied, This is the work, service that God asks of you; that you believe in the One Whom He has sent, that you cleave to, trust, rely on, and have faith in His Messenger. “

I do not cleave to trust in rely on and have faith in Ray or anyone lower than I esteem Ray to be and I esteem Ray VERY highly as a teacher of Christ.

You say : Rather, being like-minded is being courteous and acting with compassion towards one another, promoting unified understanding.

Wrong again : Eph 4 : 11-13 And His gifts were varied; He Himself appointed and gave men to us, some to b e apostles, special messentgers, some prophets, inspired preachers and expounders, some evangelists, preachers of the Gospel, travelling missionaries, some pastors shepherds of His flock and teachers. 12 His intention was the perfecting and the full equipping of the saints, His consecratged people, that they should do the work of ministering toward building up Christ’s body the church. ( I believe I contribute in this way) 13 That it might develop until we all attain oneness in the faith and in the comprehension of the full and accurate knowledge of the SON OF GOD. (Not in the full comprehension and accurate knowledge of each others opinions in order to protect our carnal pride from being hurt! You say : So let us before we let our carnal pride get hurt, reach out to the other and seek a greater understanding of their view-point, This will not only promote spiritual love amongst us, but also be pleasing to God…..There is no way in all eternity that I desire to agree or even be part of that suggestion!....May God forbid!

Your flattery of what you think I know is noted. I should warn you however, if God wants to send me Alzheimer’s disease, HE CAN! Anything that you see or hear of Christ in me is HIM. ALL HIM.


Sue

Thank you for your kind words. I too am still learning how not to dance with the beast.

“I wish you well” for me represents Agape as the type of love that is on a one way street. The love of God for one’s neighbour as one’s self is the love for  and desire  expressed in the knowledge that repentance is good, caves are not good, correction is healthy, living in a dark mind is not healthy, and to be made clean and changed from wickedness to holiness is a result of the purifying fire of God that is GOOD. This one way love is not sentimental.  To want evil people to repent, be corrected and cleansed under the fire of God knowing that God will correct all crooked paths and right every wrong is better than the desire that evil people be annihilated or sent to eternal hell and endless suffering. I think of everyone I have EVER met, and I have never met Ray personally, but I can still say, of everyone I have ever known, Ray loves himself the best because he does not want anyone to be in eternal pain or suffering and Ray loves his neighbour with the love of God that he has for himself. It shows because Ray doesn’t love caves or hypocrisy or deceit or idolatry.  He loves God! I am perhaps correct when I assume that Ray might know that loving God is not easy or all would be able to do it. No one likes persecution and Ray has his fair share as I see it from the hostility that appears in some of the letters he receives from his detractors. 

When we see our neighbours in the dark of deception self willed blindness and lost ness of soul, looseness of mind and emotional decay do we think….if that were me then I’d want to be  pulled away from the dark even if I lost a limb of pride in the process or do we think, no I’d want my sores to be licked and my errors to be stroked and I would enjoy the company of agreement and agreeableness from those who would join me in my dark leprous  self deception and estrangement from God.  Drug addicts like company and so does wickedness. Jesus stood alone and so must we. The way we treat our neighbours will show our allegiance to either HIS light or their darkness. 

I have seen and I am sure others can also see that the world teaches allegiance to the dark, addiction to approval, going with the flow, not rocking the boat, staying in line, towing the line, being two faced double minded and in short how to become a wolf in any sheep’s clothing who dares to stray into such a cave of darkness. The hand we give a cave dweller will be bitten if not eaten. The only help we can give is the light.  Ray shows what allegiance to light looks like! He knows what sticks and stones look like too. Many e-mails to Ray show that cave dwellers hate the light of one way, one sided Agape Godly love.

As we see how Judas kissed Jesus we see a different appearance of love. Pileo two way love should not be taken for granted or demonstrated without mutual consent as did Judas when he gave Jesus a Phileo kiss that Jesus did not return. The church does exactly today what Judas did then.

While Godly Agape love can be given without merit Phileo love has to be mutual.  I believe that Peter did not take this Phileo love mutuality for granted. Perhaps he felt that after he denied knowing Jesus three times that he had forfeited the phileo love bond through his own words of denial. Was this why he ran away and cried bitterly once he was brought to realise that the phileo love could so easily be broken from the human side of self preservation? Peter wept but he had not betrayed Christ he had denied knowing him which was an outright lie. In contrast Judas said he knew Christ and he betrayed him and this is exactly the profile of Christendom. Their darkness is great and I am not going in to their cave of horrors! 

Judas wished Jesus well in his phileo kiss and made a public display of it but he had no love Agape for Jesus at all. Judas wanted to go on record as showing that he wished Jesus well so as to duck out of blame for betrayal. How many well wishers do you know. They smile at you and say all the right things to you and they convince you they are sincere and will even go on public record to say how much they truly wish you well?  Like Judas showing himself to be wishing Jesus well. Getting himself onto public opinion that he wishes Jesus  well. “ Here, see how much I kiss you.  Hey I wish you well too but I do not love you so do not blame me for your fate….said the wolf to the lamb.”

Peter said I do not know Him. Judas said, sure I know Him, and I wish Him well. Judas had no love and claimed to both know Jesus and wish Him well. The Church also claims to know Jesus also wishes Jesus well but it too has NO LOVE. Jesus entrusted Peter with His sheep and commanded him to feed them. He chose to give Peter Phileo love.  Peter had loved him with all his heart and wept bitterly. Do we weep for our failures and weakness and liability to self preservation? Do I? I am starting to from a very deep place inside of me as I write this…… Judas got angry and self destructive. Peter wept bitterly but he did not go and hang himself. I am not going to hang myself either and like you my brothers and sisters I believe we would rather just drown ourselves in weeping into Gods Agape love.

 I believe true Phileo love is an elect love for Christ. It can not be paraded as Judas did and as Christandom does. It is entered into and given by Christ to those HE chooses who do love God with all their strength and who do unto others as they would have others do unto themselves. It is an elect love as I see it. This Phileo elect love originates from Christ and was not taken for granted, assumed or imagined by Peter when Jesus asked Peter whether Peter Phileo loved Him. Peter answered Jesus by saying that he Agape loved Him and did not take the status or position of saying assumption or claim to Phileo love. He had denied knowing Jesus. He grieved when Jesus changed His question to ask him the third time if he loved Him with Agape one way love. Will Peter answer in the same way to Jesus if he is asked the same questions after Peter is resurrected? I believe Petrers fidelity to loving God with all his might and heart shows that he is not only called but chosen to share in the Phileo love only Christ gives to His elect.

He chose Peter. He did not choose Judas. Jesus is the groom. HE chooses His bride. HE proposes marriage to HIS Bride. The want-to-be Harlot is not the Bride of Christ. Peter was faithful and no doubt has a “well done my good and faithful servant “waiting to be heard in his ear at his resurrection! the way Ray is running I think he is going to get the same reward too! We can all hope for the same reward but our work is actually to  imitate Christ not as the Church does but as did Peter in humble recognition that he can not get enguaged to Christ, it is Christ who offers enguagement to His Bride.

John 15 :16 You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you and I have appointed you, I have planted you, that you might go and bear fruit and keep on bearing, and that your fruit may be lasting that it may remain, abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in My Name AS PRESENTING ALL THAT I AM....PRESENTING ALL THAT I AM,  He may give it to you.

Now you don't have to agree with anything I say or anything I think or share but you do have to know and agree with what He says. That is the truth. He is our light!

Peace to you

Arcturus

[YellowStone]

It is with great saddness I write this Arcturus

You responded with:

You say : Rather, being like-minded is being courteous and acting with compassion towards one another, promoting unified understanding.
Wrong again :

No my sister, I am not wrong: 1Pe 3:8 Finally, [be ye] all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, [be] pitiful, [be] courteous:

I sought nothing but to be a spiritual brother and reach out in kindness.

As you have no such desire, then I will not respond nor will I read your posts here on out.

I will pray for you often, in the name of our Christ.

Love,

Darren

[hebrewroots98]

Arcturus, I want to thank you for your contibuting to the uplifiting of us in the Word and in the truth.  

Excellent point in the fact that TODAYS CHURCHES TREAT CHRIST IN THE SAME WAY THAT JUDAS TREATED HIM; WITH A KISS OF BETRAYAL; a one way kiss that was not returned by Christ!! (Great analogy.) True, Phileo love must be a two way street; and TODAY'S CHURCHES CLAIM THAT THEY LOVE JESUS, BUT THEY HAVE NO LOVE, ONLY LIP SERVICE TO HIM; or as you say " true Phileo love cannot be paraded as the Christian church does!"  I like that..."PHILEO IS AN 'ELECT' LOVE."

Also, Peter simply LIED outrightly about knowing Christ versus Judas whom BETRAYED Christ outrightly...there is a big difference!  Yes, I believe that for this deniying of Christ that Peter went off and wept bitterly; whereas, Judas wasn't bitter about what he did in betraying our Lord; Judas simply did not care, thus he took his own life for knowing that he just turned on GOD's SON.  Yes, I know that when I do things that would denounce that I kinow Christ, I do weep and ask for HIS forgiveness; I hate it when my carnal mind arises and I get selfish and self centered; it doesn't feel good to have to tell the ONE whom Loves ME with HIS entire being that I was not concerned about HIM as much as I was concerned for myself!!

I like to think of myself as finally BEING 'ENGAGED' TO CHRIST.  I can only just hope that I am at that point; at least I want that engaged type relationship with HIM!  (Praise His HOLY Name!)  I agree, if anyone should be called the elect, it is Ray.

You go girl; you are doing an outstanding job in presenting these scriptures to us for our edification; thanks!

PS- Arcturus, on a lighter note, but along the same lines you will have to read "The Wedding of Anne and David" thread...b/c itwas meant to be funny,but now that I think about it, it talks about their wedding and how all of us spoke LAMB TALK  just to help them to get their nerves calmed on ( their WEDDING DAY ...I seriously wonder if there is a SPIRITUAL SIGNIFICANCE HERE that those in Anne and My family have not taken into consideration yet?  (their physical wedding representing who we truly are in the SPIRIT...we arae the LAMBS at A wedding??  WHERE IS A SECOND WITNESS AT HERE?  AT LEAST GIVE ME SOME INSIGHT, EH?)

Darren, I understand that you think that unity amongst the brethren is the Godly thing to strive for, and while I definately agree with you on that point, I am in agreement here with Artcurus in that we are not commanded to

(1) come to an UNDERSTANDING of one anothers' OPINIONS - especially when it comes to coming into agreement on what each others' OPINIONS OF WHAT THE WORD HAS TO SAY (B/C our opinions mean nothing...we are to let The Scriptures speak for themselves and to have a witnessing scripture to back up all truths; as nobody's interpretations (opinions) matter when trying to discover Gods' truths!

(2)We are not to exalt OPINIONS OF THE SCRIPTURES above the TRUTH OF THE SCRIPTURES THEMSELVES, JUST TO HAVE UNITY. (I for one would rather be ununified with a brother in a particular disagreement (agree to disagree if you will on what the scriptures say), than to make UNITY happen at all costs; even to the cost of giving up doctrinal truth!

3- unity is essential IN THE BODY OF CHRIST-but, not to the detriment of TRUTH.
I hope you understand what I am trying to say here.  

[rrammfcitktturjsp]

Arcturus and Susan,

  Thank you ladies for sharing your fine posts with us.  I am in agreeance with you my sisters. 

  There were so many beautiful statments in those posts from both of you all.  Thanks.

  Sincerely,



  Anne C. McGuire

<makes hasty exit becuase I am sick right now.  Pray for me guys>

[hillsbororiver]

1Th 5:11  Wherefore comfort yourselves together and edify one another, even as also ye do.
 
1Th 5:12  And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labor among you, and are over you in the Lord and admonish you;
 
1Th 5:13  And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.
 
1Th 5:14  Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.

[hillsbororiver]

Rom 14:15  But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
 
Rom 14:16  Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
 
Rom 14:17  For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Ghost.
 
Rom 14:18  For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God and approved of men.
 
Rom 14:19  Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace and things wherewith one may edify another.

[YellowStone]

Susan, please understand I never said or implied that "we come to an agreement on one another's opijion"

I introduced that section by stating:

Clearly we are to treat our spiritual brothers and sisters differently than our brothers in sisters of the world.

I then said this:

So let us before we let our carnal pride get hurt, reach out to the other and seek a greater understanding of their view-point, in away that does not force ones point of view.

By understanding where they are coming from will give us greater understand of their Godly need. All of God's children are not the same and we need some times to give milk to those in need and meat to others

Being in agreement with one another is ever so much more than simply believing "God is love!" Rather, being like-minded is being courteous and acting with compassion towards one another, promoting unified understanding. This will not only promote spiritual love amongst us, but also be pleasing to God.   Granted I did not say "promoting unified understanding in the TRUTH" but remember I was talking to my spiritual brothers ans sisters as indicated and assumed it as a given.

How many of this world believe that God is love, yet have no love for their neighbour?

I therefore was not meaning that we should be in agreement with our worldly brothers; rather that we should seek peace and agreement with one another (our spiritual brothers and sisters)

Rom 15:6 That ye may with one mind [and] one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.[/color

2Cr 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Phl 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Phl 2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, [being] of one accord, of one mind.

1Pe 3:8 Finally, [be ye] all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, [be] pitiful, [be] courteous:

I apologize to all concerned that the love and compassion of my intent did not come through in my post. However, I will state that I feel I was hastely judged by what "was thought" I said than was actually said.

We are all human and we still make mistakes.

Thanks for your comment,

Love,
Darren.

[rrammfcitktturjsp]

Darren,

  Ahhhhh now I understand where you were coming from.  Now that I have the understanding I feel that I can respond to your posts now.  Yes, I would agree with what you were saying, I just could not for the life of me understand where you were coming, I thought that was what you meant, and I meant to PM you about it but I am glad that you posted your follow up.

  I am going to go and read the entire post with your explanation in hand.  I think it will flow congruently.  Well I have to go for now.

  Sincerely,



  Anne C. McGuire

[Deborah-Leigh]

All has been heard; the end of the matter is : Fear God, revere and worship Him, knowing that He is and keep his commandments, for this is the whole of man, the full, original purpose of his creation, the object of God’s providence, the root of character, the foundation of all happiness, the adjustment to all inharmonious circumstances and conditions under the sun and the whole duty for ever man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it is good or evil. Ecc 12 : 13,14

And if you call upon Him as your Father Who judges each one impartially according to what he does, then you should conduct yourselves with true reverence throughout the time of your temporary residence on the earth, whether long or short.   1 Peter 1 : 17


If anyone wants to pray for me please pray that I will never ever have to hear these words spoken to me that were once spoken to Peter by Jesus

Mark 8 :  33 But turning  His back to Peter and seeing His disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get behind Me Satan! For you do not have a mind intent on promoting what God wills, but what pleases men, you are not on God's side, but that of men.


Peace to you

Arcturus

[hebrewroots98]

Darren,
I understood you to speak of the desired unity between the BRETHREN (and not the world.. as in... YOU WILL KNOW THEM BY THEIR LOVE.. type UNITY.)  NOTE: And yet, I pesonally DO NOT claim those 'of the world' to be my brothers and sisters (as you call them your brothers and sisters) (I call only those that DO the will of HIM as my spiritual family and my brothers and sisters.)

Then I understood you to say that we need to get over our selfish pride by seeking the babe in Christs' OPINIONS/view points, so as to not cause him to stumble due to forcing my OPINION on the babe in Christ.  

You said that "it is more important in our relationship (as true believers) to be in agreement (UNITY) than it is to be stating that 'God is Love"; and that the UNITY that we mature saints share with the less mature saints brings a UNIFIED UNDERSTANDING...

I am confused....SO IF YOU DID NOT MEAN THAT THERE WOULD BE A "UNIFIED" UNDERSTANDING IN REGARDS TO "TRUTH" BETWEEN BELEIVERS, THEN WHAT WOULD THEY BE "UNIFIED" IN???

It's late, I will talk to you tomorrow Lord willing,  and then maybe we can clear this up.
' 

[Deborah-Leigh]

PS- Arcturus, on a lighter note, but along the same lines you will have to read "The Wedding of Anne and David" thread...b/c itwas meant to be funny,but now that I think about it, it talks about their wedding and how all of us spoke LAMB TALK  just to help them to get their nerves calmed on ( their WEDDING DAY ...I seriously wonder if there is a SPIRITUAL SIGNIFICANCE HERE that those in Anne and My family have not taken into consideration yet?  (their physical wedding representing who we truly are in the SPIRIT...we arae the LAMBS at A wedding??  WHERE IS A SECOND WITNESS AT HERE?  AT LEAST GIVE ME SOME INSIGHT, EH?)

Hello there Sue

I see the fruit of His Spirit in your participation in the wedding between Anne and David. Joy, Peace, Kindness, Goodness, Love….all come to mind. I see Anne as a little lamb too!

I add as a caution and encouragement to remain always on guard for your heart and be testing every spirit.

John 14 : 26 But the Comforter, Counsellor, Helper, Intercessor, Advocate, Strengthener, Standby, the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in MY Name, in MY place, to REPRESENT ME and act on MY behalf, HE will teach you ALL THINGS.  And He will cause you to recall, will remind you of, bring to your remembrance, everything  I HAVE TOLD YOU.

John 16 : 8 And when He comes, He will convict and convince the world and bring demonstration to it about sin and about righteousness, uprightness of heart and right standing with God and about judgment; 9 About sin, because they do not believe in Me, trust in, rely on, and adhere to ME; 10 About righteousness, uprightness of heart and right standing with God, because I go to My Father and you will see Me no longer 11 About judgment, because the ruler, evil genius, prince of this world, Satan is judged and  condemned and sentence already is passed upon him.
I believe that in as much as we find a witness to ourselves in the scriptures that this would be the correct application:

1 Cor 10 : 11,12 Now these things befell them by way of a figure as an example and warning to us; (not as any witness to us but…)they were written to admonish and fit us for right action by good instruction, we in whose days the ages have reached their climax. 12 Therefore let anyone who thinks he stands who feels sure that he has a steadfast mind and is standing firm, take heed lest he fall into sin.


Scripture is Gods word not our word. God does not contradict Himself. Gods word when discerned and applied in reverence becomes  2 Tim 3 : 16… profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience and for training in righteousness in holy living in conformity to God’s will in thought , purpose, and action…


The only thing I can come up with in reference to your experience as being lambs at the wedding is this. I do not see myself as a lamb. Only Jesus is the lamb. I definitely see you as a sheep! A good sheep not a black sheep!  I do not know what I am yet… All I know is that some do not want to even look at me!

Peace to you

Arcturus