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"THE KISS OF DEATH"

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iris:
Thank you so much Joe for sharing these thoughts with us.
It gives us a lot to think about.

Iris

Deborah-Leigh:
Hello Joe

Since listening to Ray’s teaching on Love I have been considering the meaning of this word love in the Italian language. I am not Italian but the experiences that the Lord gave me to walk through took me to Rome thirty years ago, where I lived for three years.

During my time in Rome and as I struggled to understand the language I became aware of the fact that in Italian there are the two expressions
a)   “ I love you” …Ti Amo / phileo/  conditional two way love
b)    “I wish you well” Ti voglio bene/ Agape / unconditional one way love

Italians would use this expression interchangeabley when saying or meaning that you were loved or deeply appreciated, valued or adored.

Once I learnt the language sufficiently enough to communicate I could find NO ONE who could explain which form of saying I love you in Italian held the most significance. Not even Italians knew! So I had this question in my mind for over thirty years and it was never settled. I should have asked a Greek! Bible Truths was not around at that time. Finally, after over thirty years and at last Ray’s teaching on love has answered this question for me!

Ray points to the fact that  Gods word says we are to love God with all our heart mind and strength and then with the SAME kind of love Agape, to love our neighbours as our selves. Agape is not interchanged with Phileo. In Ray’s inimitable style, Ray brings to focus that while the LOVE is the same, the approach and intensity is DIFFERENT. We are not to love our neighbours with all our hearts and minds etc….only God is to be loved in this way. We are to love our neighbours as our selves. Are we to love ourselves with all our strength and all our might and mind and hearts? I don’t think so! Only God is to be loved this way! Scripture does not teach us to be lovers of our selves. ….how then do we love our selves?

I can  see how Ray, for example loves his e-mail correspondents. I have heard how he loves those who are mis-lead and are misleading or seeking to mislead others.  He rebukes and admonishes with  stringent terms by showing what god thinks and Ray does this kindly without vengence! That Ray spends a large part of his life exposing heresy and giving mislead blind people even the time of day and dignity of replying to some of their outlandish and sometimes offensive accusations and innuendoes I think  shows that Ray cares for others as he would care for himself if he were in their shoes. His stern admonitions and clear cutting observations as to where some of his detractors are standing in error, hypocrisy, self righteousness and deviousness, are  Ray’s responses to others as he would respond to himself  if he too were a cheating hypocrite and liar. Why does Ray answer some of his detractors with sarcasm and upbraiding admonishments? Because Ray strongly loves God.  It shows  in how Ray is treating his neighbours as himself were he to be in their darkness. The deeper the discerned darkness, the more blazing Ray’s response of rebuke and warning.

We all like to be treated with kindness and gentleness. The carnal mind does not like to be wrong or corrected.  When stringent correction, rebuke and admonition are required due to arrogant idol clinging worshipers of error and heresy blindly show off their deep seated hatred of God, then it is kindness and gentleness to refute the lies, uncover the double mindedness and expose deceit and deception. To be able to respond this way is efficient effective kindness in swift certain action. To do less is mealy mouthed apologetic sentimental approval seeking acquiescence to darkness.

Gal 1 : 10-12 Now am I trying to win the favour of men, or of God? Do I seek to please men? If I were still seeking popularity with men, I should not be a bond servant of Christ. 11. For I want you to know, brethren, that the Gospel which was proclaimed and made know by me is not man’s gospel, a human invention, according to or patterned after any human standard. 12.l For indeed I did not re3ceive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came to me through a direct revelation given by Jesus Christ.

These words of Paul sound to me as if they can also be claimed by Ray. Can I say these words fit me too? No, but I would like to grow up to the standard height of Christ’s mindedness to be able to fit into this garment of Godly righteousness. Can we say what Paul says and ring as true as how Ray can sound saying the same words. Who have I corrected? Who have I risked falling out with. Whose good books do I no longer need to be written into except for the one good book…the book of life. Can my name appear in both books? Can we have our cake and eat it. No. No not according to the scriptures for either one will serve mammon or God. So where is my name written? Do I still need humans to be friendly with me or am I fraternizing with the beast? If I look at how I answer others who are blind, who I know are blind, I will get my answer to how I am loving myself.

If I am in darkness would I not love for someone to at first show me the way out of my darkness and if I do not move would I not want to be kicked hard and fast out of my apathy and self aggrandising dependence?  Or would I prefer that people who pass my cave of mental blindness, to tip toe around it or be quiet and pass on buy ignoring the things I say out of my darkened state. No! I would want to see and hear the sound and presence of Jesus!

How do I love myself? Do I love the darkness more than the light? If I am going wrong I do not want someone to drag me into their cave but to show me the light of Gods words not of their cave and better accommodations of their minds and thoughts. I want Gods mind and thoughts!

The tug of war between carnal and spiritual is the war for agreement. No one needs to agree with anyone! We all have to agree with God.  If we see someone in a cave we have to shine the spot light of God into that darkness if we are to love that neighbour as our selves. What if we were in that cave and one of us walked by. Would we not want to feel some light?  If we are in the light and if we love the light we will shine this light and make it known that there is no Hell, there is not need for Tithing with scriptures not opinions or carnal interpretations, evaluations and assessments. If rejected then we have shone the light and can move on without getting into dark caves of opposition, debate and contention.

If we love God then we know that His word is the light. Ray is a ray of that light and as folks call to him from their caves of darkness and Ray answers, I see that Ray responds as though it were to himself if he were himself to have been in that darkness.  Darkness is at enmity with the light. That is why we should not turn down our lamps to go and commune with cave dwellers that would argue, contend and prod with their sticks and stones.  When you enter a cave with all the light blazing, you are going to see the stones and the sticks coming and this is perhaps why the elect are not deceived!

Matt 24 : 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise, and they will show great signs and wonders so as to deceive and lead astray, if it were possible even the elect.

Luke 21 : 8 …Be on your guard and be careful that you are not led astray; for many will come in My name, appropriating to themselves the name Messiah which belongs to ME………

Messiah is Hebrew and Christ is Greek.  According to Strongs Concordance these two terms mean “anointed”  In the Hebrew translation this anointing is described as “usually a consecrated person as a king, priest, or saint; spec. THE MESSIAH.

Jesus said that this name belongs to HIM. The anointing belongs to HIM. The Church claims to have this anointing. The Church assumes, imagines and takes for granted an imagined relationship with Jesus. It even preaches this relationship to be the be all and end all of salvation. It imagines that Jesus is in relationship to them because of their  signs and wonders and visions and imaginings. The Church, like Judas, proclaims a phileo love for Jesus. They sing praise to Jesus. They kiss Him and  bless Him and give Him glory. They assume fellowship and friendship with Christ and they claim authority and power of HIS NAME while they eat the meat of His lambs to purchase their jets and their limozines and their carnal structures that they claim is housing our living God’s Spirit. They are blind. Jesus does visit their halls as he also visited the pool of Bethesda with all the sick were gathered to jump into the water that they believed would be stirred up by an angel and produce healing once a year to the first body that entered the water once it was stirred. Jesus went into that den of sickness HE told only one to take up his bed a walk. I wonder if the day that Jesus went to the pool of Bethesda, whether the water stirred. I don’t think so. Jesus was there. It was He who stirred the water in the OT. He came to the pool and they recognised HIM NOT. Then He left! He did not stay! Jesus doesn’t stay in the Church.  He only visits to drag out from their membership the few who He chooses to come out.

The light of Christ is greater than the darkness and His ways are higher and His thoughts can be our thoughts  because He has given us His Word. This is our light.

To some who are hurt by the light, they will pick up sticks and stones while others less sick may see the light and find healing truth and honesty in it as we who have embraced the teachings on BT have individually experienced.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

YellowStone:
Arcturus :)

That was a wonderful post and I thank you for sharing your heartfelt thoughts.

I wish only to comment on a tiny piece and in no way am I correcting you, just offering a view from a different perspective :)

Arcturus wrote:  The tug of war between carnal and spiritual is the war for agreement. No one needs to agree with anyone! We all have to agree with God. 

I assume what you are saying here is that the spiritual minded person need never seek agreement with a carnal minded person. :)

Because we are given clear instruction that while we should ALWAYS be in agreement with God, we should also always be in like-minded between ourselves (true followers)

The following verses are my witness:

Rom 15:6 That ye may with one mind [and] one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.[/color

2Cr 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Phl 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Phl 2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, [being] of one accord, of one mind.

1Pe 3:8 Finally, [be ye] all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, [be] pitiful, [be] courteous:

Clearly we are to treat our spiritual brothers and sisters differently than our brothers in sisters of the world. This should not be difficult for most here, because we have been bitten by the wovles at least once. However, there will be times when "we" do not see eye to eye; Paul expected it, hence his instruction to this point.

So let us before we let our carnal pride get hurt, reach out to the other and seek a greater understanding of their view-point, in away that does not force ones point of view. Being in agreement with one another is ever so much more than simply believing "God is love!" Rather, being like-minded is being courteous and acting with compassion towards one another, promoting unified understanding. This will not only promote spiritual love amongst us, but also be pleasing to God. :)

Arcturus, that you have much to offer is a gross understatement!

Thanks again for your wonderful post! :)

Love,
Darren

hebrewroots98:
Arcturus,
That is so neat that you had that opportunity to live in Italy.  How interesting that you have kept a question in your mind for over thrity years (and especially that you got an answer fianlly.)  I have had lingering questions like that for many, many years as well, infact, there are still some that I am sure will be answered before long!)

You said it perfectly when you stated how Ray gets down to the very deep level (of darkness) that alot of his emailers are at (spiritually speaking); thus, how Ray is able to reach them at their level since this is how Ray would want to be treated if he were at that spiritually dark level himself.  (Well said Arcturus when you stated  ...whose godd book do I no longer need to be written into except for the ONE GOOD BOOK, THE BOOK OF LIFE.  I have never heard it termed that way, I like it.  Thank you for the reminder to look inward to see if I  caring about wether humans are being friendly with me or wether i am flirting with the beast here.  I must admit that I can use a little work in this area.

And yes, 'the church' does claim to have 'the annointing' don't they!  I am thankful that YESHUA HAMESHIAC (JESUS THE MESSIAH (THE ANOINTED/RISEN ONE) had come into 'the church' where we were and HE  DRUG me and my family out of her!  I hope to live up to HIS selecting of me to become HIS ELECT EVENTUALLY.  

I (love) appreciate this post so much!! :D!

Deborah-Leigh:
Hello Darren

What I mean is not important. Here is what the scriptures say to which I was refering when I made the comment you have placed under question.

Col 2 : 20 If then you have died with Christ to material ways of looking at things and have escaped from the world’s crude and elemental notions and teachings of externalism, why do you live as if you still belong to the world?
 
Gal 5 : 17 ...for the desires of the flesh are opposed to the Holy Spirit and the desires of the Spirit are opposed to the flesh, godless human nature; for these are antagonistic to each other, continually withstanding and in conflict with each other, so that you are not free but are prevented from doing what you desire to do.

You say : So let us before we let our carnal pride get hurt, reach out to the other and seek a greater understanding of their view-point,.....show me the scripture that supports this opinion of yours…..not the scripture you think says what you mean but the scripture that says what you say....that before we let our carnal prideget hurt, reach out to each other......to each other not to Jesus Christ!....Bring me one scripture that says that!......in away that does not force ones point of view. Being in agreement with one another is ever so much more than simply believing "God is love!"    

Believing God might be simple but it is not easy. It is a lifes work.

John 6 : 28,29, 35  They then said, What are we to do, that we may be working the works of God? 29 Jesus replied, This is the work, service that God asks of you; that you believe in the One Whom He has sent, that you cleave to, trust, rely on, and have faith in His Messenger. “

I do not cleave to trust in rely on and have faith in Ray or anyone lower than I esteem Ray to be and I esteem Ray VERY highly as a teacher of Christ.

You say : Rather, being like-minded is being courteous and acting with compassion towards one another, promoting unified understanding.

Wrong again : Eph 4 : 11-13 And His gifts were varied; He Himself appointed and gave men to us, some to b e apostles, special messentgers, some prophets, inspired preachers and expounders, some evangelists, preachers of the Gospel, travelling missionaries, some pastors shepherds of His flock and teachers. 12 His intention was the perfecting and the full equipping of the saints, His consecratged people, that they should do the work of ministering toward building up Christ’s body the church. ( I believe I contribute in this way) 13 That it might develop until we all attain oneness in the faith and in the comprehension of the full and accurate knowledge of the SON OF GOD. (Not in the full comprehension and accurate knowledge of each others opinions in order to protect our carnal pride from being hurt! You say : So let us before we let our carnal pride get hurt, reach out to the other and seek a greater understanding of their view-point, This will not only promote spiritual love amongst us, but also be pleasing to God…..There is no way in all eternity that I desire to agree or even be part of that suggestion!....May God forbid!

Your flattery of what you think I know is noted. I should warn you however, if God wants to send me Alzheimer’s disease, HE CAN! Anything that you see or hear of Christ in me is HIM. ALL HIM.


Sue

Thank you for your kind words. I too am still learning how not to dance with the beast.

“I wish you well” for me represents Agape as the type of love that is on a one way street. The love of God for one’s neighbour as one’s self is the love for  and desire  expressed in the knowledge that repentance is good, caves are not good, correction is healthy, living in a dark mind is not healthy, and to be made clean and changed from wickedness to holiness is a result of the purifying fire of God that is GOOD. This one way love is not sentimental.  To want evil people to repent, be corrected and cleansed under the fire of God knowing that God will correct all crooked paths and right every wrong is better than the desire that evil people be annihilated or sent to eternal hell and endless suffering. I think of everyone I have EVER met, and I have never met Ray personally, but I can still say, of everyone I have ever known, Ray loves himself the best because he does not want anyone to be in eternal pain or suffering and Ray loves his neighbour with the love of God that he has for himself. It shows because Ray doesn’t love caves or hypocrisy or deceit or idolatry.  He loves God! I am perhaps correct when I assume that Ray might know that loving God is not easy or all would be able to do it. No one likes persecution and Ray has his fair share as I see it from the hostility that appears in some of the letters he receives from his detractors.  :D

When we see our neighbours in the dark of deception self willed blindness and lost ness of soul, looseness of mind and emotional decay do we think….if that were me then I’d want to be  pulled away from the dark even if I lost a limb of pride in the process or do we think, no I’d want my sores to be licked and my errors to be stroked and I would enjoy the company of agreement and agreeableness from those who would join me in my dark leprous  self deception and estrangement from God.  Drug addicts like company and so does wickedness. Jesus stood alone and so must we. The way we treat our neighbours will show our allegiance to either HIS light or their darkness. 

I have seen and I am sure others can also see that the world teaches allegiance to the dark, addiction to approval, going with the flow, not rocking the boat, staying in line, towing the line, being two faced double minded and in short how to become a wolf in any sheep’s clothing who dares to stray into such a cave of darkness. The hand we give a cave dweller will be bitten if not eaten. The only help we can give is the light.  Ray shows what allegiance to light looks like! He knows what sticks and stones look like too. Many e-mails to Ray show that cave dwellers hate the light of one way, one sided Agape Godly love.

As we see how Judas kissed Jesus we see a different appearance of love. Pileo two way love should not be taken for granted or demonstrated without mutual consent as did Judas when he gave Jesus a Phileo kiss that Jesus did not return. The church does exactly today what Judas did then.

While Godly Agape love can be given without merit Phileo love has to be mutual.  I believe that Peter did not take this Phileo love mutuality for granted. Perhaps he felt that after he denied knowing Jesus three times that he had forfeited the phileo love bond through his own words of denial. Was this why he ran away and cried bitterly once he was brought to realise that the phileo love could so easily be broken from the human side of self preservation? Peter wept but he had not betrayed Christ he had denied knowing him which was an outright lie. In contrast Judas said he knew Christ and he betrayed him and this is exactly the profile of Christendom. Their darkness is great and I am not going in to their cave of horrors! 

Judas wished Jesus well in his phileo kiss and made a public display of it but he had no love Agape for Jesus at all. Judas wanted to go on record as showing that he wished Jesus well so as to duck out of blame for betrayal. How many well wishers do you know. They smile at you and say all the right things to you and they convince you they are sincere and will even go on public record to say how much they truly wish you well?  Like Judas showing himself to be wishing Jesus well. Getting himself onto public opinion that he wishes Jesus  well. “ Here, see how much I kiss you.  Hey I wish you well too but I do not love you so do not blame me for your fate….said the wolf to the lamb.”

Peter said I do not know Him. Judas said, sure I know Him, and I wish Him well. Judas had no love and claimed to both know Jesus and wish Him well. The Church also claims to know Jesus also wishes Jesus well but it too has NO LOVE. Jesus entrusted Peter with His sheep and commanded him to feed them. He chose to give Peter Phileo love.  Peter had loved him with all his heart and wept bitterly. Do we weep for our failures and weakness and liability to self preservation? Do I? I am starting to from a very deep place inside of me as I write this…… Judas got angry and self destructive. Peter wept bitterly but he did not go and hang himself. I am not going to hang myself either and like you my brothers and sisters I believe we would rather just drown ourselves in weeping into Gods Agape love.

 I believe true Phileo love is an elect love for Christ. It can not be paraded as Judas did and as Christandom does. It is entered into and given by Christ to those HE chooses who do love God with all their strength and who do unto others as they would have others do unto themselves. It is an elect love as I see it. This Phileo elect love originates from Christ and was not taken for granted, assumed or imagined by Peter when Jesus asked Peter whether Peter Phileo loved Him. Peter answered Jesus by saying that he Agape loved Him and did not take the status or position of saying assumption or claim to Phileo love. He had denied knowing Jesus. He grieved when Jesus changed His question to ask him the third time if he loved Him with Agape one way love. Will Peter answer in the same way to Jesus if he is asked the same questions after Peter is resurrected? I believe Petrers fidelity to loving God with all his might and heart shows that he is not only called but chosen to share in the Phileo love only Christ gives to His elect.

He chose Peter. He did not choose Judas. Jesus is the groom. HE chooses His bride. HE proposes marriage to HIS Bride. The want-to-be Harlot is not the Bride of Christ. Peter was faithful and no doubt has a “well done my good and faithful servant “waiting to be heard in his ear at his resurrection! the way Ray is running I think he is going to get the same reward too! We can all hope for the same reward but our work is actually to  imitate Christ not as the Church does but as did Peter in humble recognition that he can not get enguaged to Christ, it is Christ who offers enguagement to His Bride.

John 15 :16 You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you and I have appointed you, I have planted you, that you might go and bear fruit and keep on bearing, and that your fruit may be lasting that it may remain, abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in My Name AS PRESENTING ALL THAT I AM....PRESENTING ALL THAT I AM,  He may give it to you.

Now you don't have to agree with anything I say or anything I think or share but you do have to know and agree with what He says. That is the truth. 8) He is our light!

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

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