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Author Topic: Jesus existed before his birth.  (Read 4564 times)

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nightmare sasuke

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Jesus existed before his birth.
« on: April 08, 2006, 02:03:00 AM »

This is a post I made to a Christadelphian on another forum:
 
Before I comment on what you said above, I think it is important that we establish whom exactly the “Holy Spirit is.�

The first occurrence of the word “Holy Ghost [spirit]� is in Mat 1:18:

“Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost (KJV).

This verse says “child of the Holy Ghost.� However, we are left wondering, “Who exactly is this ‘Holy Ghost?’�

The translation “Holy Ghost� comes from the Greek words hagios and pneuma. Jesus tells us “God is a Spirit� (John 4:24). He also tells us multiple times that God is “Holy.� So, in one way, God the Father is indeed the Holy Spirit. However, it goes much further than this.

The Holy Spirit is also called the “Comforter.� In fact, the Holy Spirit is the comforter:

“But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you� (Joh 14:26).

Now we know the Holy Spirit is (or is made up of) God the Father and (dwells in) the Comforter. But, who is the Comforter?

“…the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to youâ€? (Joh 14:17-18 ).  

Jesus tells the disciples that the Holy Spirit is dwelling with them. Who was dwelling with them at the time? JESUS! However, Jesus was not “in� them, was he? No. That’s why Jesus said “and shall be in you.� What else does Jesus say? “I will come to you.�

There you have it. The “comforter … is the Holy ghost� (John 14:26) who “dwelleth with [the apostles], and shall be in [them]� because Jesus “will not leave [them] comfortless� because “[he] will come to [them]� (John 14:17-18 ).

Moreover:

"...we have an advocate [gk: paraklētos; the same word translated 'Comforter'] with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous..." (1Jo 2:1). There you have it: the “comforter … is the Holy ghostâ€? who is "Jesus Christ the righteous."

But if the Father is called a Spirit who is holy, and Jesus is called the Comforter “which is the Holy ghost� then how are the Father and the Son separate? Simple!

Christ is “…in the Father, and the Father [is] in [Christ, because] … the Father … dwelleth in� Christ (Joh 14:10).

Jesus and the Father are both the Holy Spirit because they both dwell in each other. They are “one!� But, how are they one, yet two totally different beings? Simple!

“For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh� (Eph 5:31).

Christ and the Father are one through Spirit just like a husband and wife are “one� through the flesh.

How do they have the same Spirit? Simple!

“And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man� (Gen 2:22).

Eve came out of Adam, Adam and Eve became “one,� and through Eve came all of mankind (hence her name). The same is with the Father and Jesus. Jesus came out of the Father (thus how they have the same spirit, just as Adam and Eve have the same flesh), and through Jesus came all of mankind. Remember, “…the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made� (Rom 1:20). God made the relationship between Man and Woman the way it is for a reason; so we can understand “the invisible things of him� by “the things that are made.�

“He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not� (Joh 1:10).

Jesus “laid the foundation of the Earth� (Heb 1:10).

Who dwells in us? The Holy Spirit. What is the Holy Spirit? The Father and Christ’s Spirit, which are one and dwell in each other. Because, Christ is “…in the Father, and the Father [is] in [Christ, because] … the Father … dwelleth in� Christ (Joh 14:10).


“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you…� (Rom 8:9). Who is this spirit of God? “…the Spirit of Christ…� (same verse).

The Father is the Holy Spirit, who is in Christ, who is the Comforter, who is in us.

Because: “there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus…� (Ti 2:5). Christ is the “mediator.� The Father dwells in Christ, and Christ in the Father; Christ comes into us, thus the Father comes into us at the same time.

For example, “Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him� (Joh 14:23).

Christ, the mediator, who has the Spirit of God in him, and his Spirit in God, comes into us, bringing the Holy Spirit of the Father, thus allowing us to have both God the Father and Jesus the Son in us at once.

Now, back to what you said.

Quote
Luke 1:34-35 (KJV): “34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.�
The above does not teach that the Holy Spirit is Jesus. You seem to have superimposed this idea from elsewhere. The most obvious reading of this is that Jesus is called the Son of God because God is His Father.

The parallel record in Matthew gives a further explanation. The conception is “of� the Holy Spirit, not “is� as you claim.
Matthew 1:20 (KJV): “20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.�

If “The Holy Spirit is Jesus� as you claim, why was it necessary for God to anoint Jesus with the Holy Spirit.
Acts 10:38 (KJV): “How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.�


The Son of Man was of the Holy Spirit because the Son of Man has the Holy Spirit in him, and his Spirit in the Father.

“Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works� (Joh 14:10).

Now, did Jesus exist before his birth in the flesh? YES!!!!

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God� (Joh 1:1).
…
“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth� (Joh 1:14).
…
“He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not� (Joh 1:10).
…
“Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am� (Joh 8:58 ).
…
“For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me� (Joh 5:46).

Now, is Jesus the Father? NO!!!!

�And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God…� (Rev 3:14).

Because “…to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him� (1Co 8:6).

Did anyone know the Father, "The God ... of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Co 11:31) before Jesus Christ came in the flesh? NO!

"No man[/i][/u] [NOT EVEN MOSES!] hath seen God [the Father] at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him" (Joh 1:18 ).

The Father was not declared until Jesus Christ came in the flesh. However, after Jesus Christ came in the flesh, many of us were able to "see through a glass ... but ... face to face" (1Co 13:12).

“He that hath ears to hear, let him hear� (Mat 11:15).

PS. For more info, read: http://*not-allowed*.com/trinity.php
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Origen II

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Jesus existed before his birth.
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2006, 06:51:20 PM »

Beautiful :)
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