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[hillsbororiver]

This was originally posted in the "Radio Shack" thread on the "Off Topics" Board, it is more appropriate here;

Thanks for the warm welcome, To be truthful I am looking for FRUIT, as in being a fruit inspector.. We are told to do so, even though I feel woefully unprepared  to properly judge. I really hope and pray that Ray is the woderful  teacher that he appears to be... His whole premise is based upon the idea that the the early Catholic church adulterated  the Gospel for the MISTAKEN benefit of the hordes of unconverted Pagans who were admitted to the church after Christianity became the official state religion. I don't have much problem accepting THAT because I can see the same thing happening right before my eyes, even as we speak.
I intend to pay some Greek and Hebew scholars for their opinion on the matter of "Hell"....  I will let the chips fall where they may... My wife is a History Buff and a dyed in the wool Southern Baptist, she was terrrified that I would go to hell for merely doubting the doctrinne of hell..  Funny Huh?   However after a few days  of trying to prove that Ray is wrong  even SHE is willing to let the TRUTH be TRUTH. Praise God...
      I am searching for the TRUTH, even if it means BAD NEWS for weak,carnal and despicable creatures, such as myself....
   I tend to think Ray is right because of the almost volcanic eruption that occured when I even Dared to cast Doubt on the Doctrine of Eternal Hell for the majority of mankind....I was really surprised at how many people think I will go to hell for merely DOUBTING  the doctrine of "Hell"... I think it strange that the The only person who was NOT horrified at my" Blasphemey" was my Pastor at our Church, which is a Conservative Baptist Church in Idaho. I told him that I would no longer teach or support the doctrine of ETERNAL punishment because of my reservations about the truth of the doctrine. I further told him that I would no longer teach it to our children in our "AWANA"  class. He said that he wished  WITH ALL HIS HEART that the doctrine of eternal torment was NOT true, but he THINKS it IS true...

Please don't gang up on our pastor and tell me all about how he is a self deluded fool. He really LOVES,TEACHES and PROTECTS his flock the very best he is able to...
    I am sorry that so many of you have been hurt by "THE CHURCH",, but don't throw out the "Baby With The Bath Water". They may have believed  a lie, but it is is very posssible that some portions  of the church are on the very edge of discovering the truth!!!
     Even as I write this note I have great hope that the message of universal salvation  MAY BE RECEIVED by a "Hell" of a lot more "Churches" than you could have ever have  believed possible.
       I could be just wistfully dreaming, so forgive my ignorance ..  Is there ANY  Scriptures that PROVES that the mainstream Evangalical church will NOT accept the truth of eternal salvation in this eon?    I think that there is a pent up FRUSTRATION with the mainstream doctrine of eternal torment and that there may be  MANY Pastors who are READY to listen, if we can just plant a few SEEDS NOW.
    I am here to argue and sharpen iron against iron, so DO NOT think that you will "Scare Me Away" if you tell me I am full of Dung,  as St. Paul admitted  when he came to the knowledge of the truth...  What IS Truth? Let's reason together!!
 
 

[hillsbororiver]

His whole premise is based upon the idea that the the early Catholic church adulterated  the Gospel for the MISTAKEN benefit of the hordes of unconverted Pagans who were admitted to the church after Christianity became the official state religion. I don't have much problem accepting THAT because I can see the same thing happening right before my eyes, even as we speak.

Good morning Seeker,

Actually this is not Ray's premise at all, here is an excerpt from the "Lake of Fire" Part 7    http://bible-truths.com/lake7.html



THE SEVEN CHURCHES ARE ONE CHURCH

Jesus says that the seven messengers and the seven churches are all, "…in My right hand…" (Rev. 1:20). ONE hand—they are all ONE.
 
"These things say He that…walks in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks [addressed to Epheus, but for ALL SEVEN CHURCHES]" (Rev. 2:1).
 
"He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says unto…[unto WHOM? Unto Ephesus only? No, read it] …unto the churches" [ALL SEVEN CHURCHES]" (Ver. 7).
 
God wants ALL the churches to hear what He addresses to Ephesus. And He wants Ephesus to hear what He addresses to Smyrna, "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches" (Ver. 11, 17, 29, 3:6, 13, 22). All the churches are to hear what is spoken to ALL the other churches.
 
To Ephesus, we find, "He…Who walks in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks [plural]" (Rev. 2:1), must mean that He also walks in the midst of Smyrna too, and Pergamos, and Thyatira, and Sardis, and Philadelphia, and Laodicea ALSO.
 
Of Ephesus we read, "…to him that OVERCOMES will I give to eat of the TREE OF LIFE…" (Ver. 7).
 
Do those who "overcome" in Smyrna get "a crown of life" (Ver. 10), but are NOT allowed to "eat of the tree of life?"
 
Can those in Pergamos who overcome "eat of the hidden manna" (Ver. 17), but are NOT allowed to "eat of the tree of life" as are those in Ephesus?
 
Does neither Ephesus nor Smyrna get "a crown of life" as do the overcomers of Pergamos? Are the overcomers of Thyatira given "…power over the nations," albeit, they will NOT be allowed, "…to sit down with Me [Jesus] in My throne…." as will the overcomers in Laodicea (3:21)?
 
Are the overcomers in Pergamos given "…a new name…" (Ver. 17), but do NONE of the other churches also get this new name? The overcomers in Sardis have Christ’s promise that, "I will NOT blot out his name out of the book of life" (3:5).
 
Is it Sardis ONLY that has this promise? How could Smyrna not have her name in the book of life, since she is given "A crown of LIFE?"
 
Are not "thy works" mentioned in ALL seven churches? Is not "overcoming" mentioned in ALL seven churches? Are not rewards promised in ALL seven churches? How could Laodicea be "lukewarm" (Rev. 3:16), except that she also "left her first love" (Rev. 2:4)? Or how could Sardis be spiritually DEAD (3:1), except that she also "left her first love?"
 
Does Jesus "walk in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks [plural] (Rev. 2:1), but speaks by the words of God, "…He which has the sharp sword with two edges [Heb. 4:12]…" to Pergamos only (Ver. 12)?
 
Does Jesus Christ, Who has "…the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars…" (3:1), which are the seven messengers of the SEVEN churches (plural), speak by only one Spirit to one church (Sardis)? NO! Every church is admonished to "…hear what the Spirit says unto the churches."
 
Why should Smyrna or Pergamos listen to the Spirit’s message to Ephesus who "…left their first love?"
Is any so foolish as to think Jesus tells all seven churches to "…hear what the Spirit says to the churches" (all the other plural churches), so that they can compare themselves among themselves and see which one Jesus thinks is the holiest of them all? That is nonsense!

ALL seven churches individually, have ALL the problems and ALL the strengths of all the churches combined. It is ONE prophecy, of ONE church, in ONE hand of Jesus, which combine the characteristics of seven churches in Asia that shared all of the good qualities and all of the shortcomings. Some think that Smyrna and Philadelphia did not have any shortcomings. They did. The Scriptures prove it. We will cover that in Part VIII.

All seven churches were spiritually "lukewarm," which is like being spiritually "dead," because they all "left their first love," and they all had a members who "say they are Jews [spiritually circumcised and converted], and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan," and all the congregations of the churches of God down through the generations have been ruled over by the "Nicolaitanes."

ALL SEVEN CHURCHES HAD ALL OF THE PROBLEMS THAT EACH OTHER HAD, AND ALL OF THE CHURCHES OF GOD DOWN THROUGH THE GENERATIONS HAD ALL OF THE PROBLEMS THAT THE SEVEN CHURCHES OF REVELATION HAD. IT IS A PROPHECY OF THIS VERY CHURCH THAT EXISTS AROUND THE WORLD TODAY!

And that my dear readers is how these churches in Asia are all SYMBOLS for what the Church of God would be like from the time John saw this vision, down through two thousand years of Church history, and out into the future when Jesus purges all evil from His Church and brings them all into the Family and Kingdom of His Father!

I hope this clarifies.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[Chris R]

    I am here to argue and sharpen iron against iron, so DO NOT think that you will "Scare Me Away" if you tell me I am full of Dung,  as St. Paul admitted  when he came to the knowledge of the truth...  What IS Truth? Let's reason together!!
 

Hello Seeker1

No,  your NOT here to argue, We do not wish to "scare anyone away" but, you will be monitored, and your posts removed if you do argue.

Thankyou

Chris R

[rrammfcitktturjsp]

Seeker1,

  Welcome the forum.  Mods, thanks for moving this post to here, I was unaware that this post existed.

  Nah, we are not scary people, only people like you learning the truth.  Get ready for the time of your life here.

  Look forward to getting to know you.

  As to some of your premises, I wish not to comment becuase I realize that you are beginning your journey and that you will learn many things.  All of us come in holding on to some last little things, becuase we do not know if it is wrong or not.  Stay here learn from here and the bibletruths.com and the Truth that you are seeking after will be revealed.  My word of caution though, what are you willing to do for the Truth?  Many of us have faced persecution for this Truth, are you willing to face this?  What this will eventually boil down to is the drinking in of the Truth from you mind into your heart.  Where will you stand when it gets tough?  I am saying this, becuase it WILL get hard, but please remember YOU are not alone. You have us at the forum and God will raise others in your life as he has mine.  In the end you will decide whether you want to pass Go and collect the 200 dollars.  Stay in the journey seeker1, and I promise looking back over my life, it is WELL worth it.

  Sincerely,




  Anne C. McGuire

[Kat]

Hi Seeker,

It is good that you have joined us here at the forum. 
It is always a wonderful feeling when you come to the knowledge of the truth.
I understand your wanting to share this truth with others.  Well so you are going to try to show the Southern Baptist the truth, that should be interesting, keep us informed.
As you keep reading Ray's articles you will find lots of your questions answered.  Who the church is, and why we do not have anything to do with it. 
Ray has gotten thousands of emails, and has ask many to prove him wrong with two scripture proofs.  No one has done so yet.  His teachings are so sound, because he teaches totally what all the scripture says.  One of his common statements is, 'you have to pay attention to the words,' because he does so very carefully.
 
So, we hope that you will find this a good place to fellowship and the get answers to some of your questions 

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[iris]

Hi Seeker,

Welcome to the forum!!!

If you are searching for the truth then you should read and study everything that Ray has written,
that's on Bible-Truths web site. And as you read and study be sure to look up and read all the scriptures; and pray to God to open your eyes up so you can see and to open your ears so you can
hear...


Iris

[hebrewroots98]

Hello Seeker,
I know that you will find everything that you are wanting to know here at this site.  Most if not all of us on this forum have 'come out of her my people" (come out of the denominational church) and have marvelled at the fact that we really were not aware of missing so many bible truths, thus we are learning these things here.  We can definately relate with what you are going through.  Do not be surprised if you begin suffering persecutions for your newfound beliefs.  (I personally have found that those who are opposed to these teachings here on this site are mostly church goers and can be the most cruel and severe in their treatment toward me...) I hope that you will have it easier, but I doubt it really.   We are here when you need us!

[seeker1]

To Chris R.  Peace Brother! My choice of words was perhaps unfortunate when I said "Argue and sharpen iron against iron".  In todays climate the word "Argue" has taken on a very negative connotation of hostility and defensiveness. I use the word in the more positive sense of sharing thoughts and ideas,testing one against another,reasoning an idea out with the goal in mind of mutual benefit to both parties. In the Classical sense of the word  it IS possible to "Argue" for hours without ever being defensive or raising one's voice, since both parties are searching for truth rather that simply trying to forcefully impose your ideas on the other person. Once emotions and hostility enter an arguement all hope of reasoning together is lost. The discourse has turned into an infantile shouting match...  I learned to "Argue" in the classical sense while serving in the military. It doesn't pay to get hostile and angry when both parties are armed and dangerous!!! LOL  In a very real sense we are ALL armed and dangerous because WORDS can injure and destroy just as surely as any weapon of warfare. As a matter of fact I believe that words are MORE REALthan the entire physical universe. Heaven and earth will pass away, but God's word will endure forever. We shall be held accountable for every idle word , etc..

[DWIGHT]

Dear Seeker I,

Welcome in the name of the Lord.  Your username speaks volumes; we too are seeking the truth and the one thing that we seek most of all here is the truth.  For we worship Him in spirit and in truth.  You will find a oneness in spirit here and a love between us that has grown stronger and stronger as all of us come to the knowlege of the truth.  It will set you free but that freedom comes with a price.  Each of us has come out of Babylon by the hand of God; this exodus is not easy but the Lord is faithful and merciful to all that will obey His voice.  God bless you on your journey.

In Him,

Dwight

[seeker1]

Dear KAT, thanks for the kind words. I do not harbor any silly notions that I can convert anyone in the Baptist church to the idea of universal salvation. I don't even intend to try, it would only cause division and anger. When the time for leaving comes I will leave quietly and respectfully. I do however have a glimmer of hope for our pastor. He  really dislikes the doctrine of eternal torment, it grieves his heart terribly. So his HEART is ready to change, but his mind and intellect need to be convinced that eternal punishment is a falsehood. I would not be surprised at all to have him call me someday with questions about the doctrine of hell. I have printed out virtually everything on this site and made two copies of certain teachings that might be useful to my pastor to help him overcome his intellectual resistance. Who knows, maybe someday...

[Craig]

Seeker,

My pastor who was baptist at the time changed 100%. We were always good friends.  I stopped going to the church and presented my reasons by printing Rays articles and giving it to him.  At first he was very skeptical ,to say the least.  After about 6 months of studying and discussing he saw the truth in Rays teachings of the scriptures.  1 year later the congregation asked him to leave

Blessings!
Craig

[seeker1]

Dear Dwight, Thank you for your kind words. Every time I see your name it startles me a little because that is MY first name. I usually use my real name on the internet, but on this site I couldn't of course. What is even more surprising is that you seem to have a similar "Voice" tone and temperment to my own... Tell me a little about yourself.

[PKnowler]

Hi Seeker 1

  Welcome to BT forum! Thank you for sharing some of your testimony with us. As Dwight said your user name describes you well.
I am glad to hear you are reading Ray's writing and it is changing your religious paradigm. The Lord will shake what can be shaken.

Heb 12: 28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29 for our "God is a consuming fire."

Blessings, Paula 

[seeker1]

Craig, I planned on doing exactly as you did with your pastor, but not anytime soon. It may be wrong of me to delay but my pastor is near to retirement age. I don't want to be the cause of him losing any retirement entitlements. Besides it might be a whole lot easier to convince him once he is retired and no longer under the threat of being booted out of the church. We are called to live peaceably and to avoid giving offense or hardship to one another. I also need time to better ground myself in the Word before I go around shooting off my mouth.
  It is said that the church is great at producing either Saints or hypocrites. I count myself among the hypocrites. I am deeply ashamed and embarrased of the fact that I smoke and drink to excess far too often. I suffer from chronic depression. I have tried several classes of drugs for depression with only meager results. Sometimes I even wonder if God has put this thorn in my flesh to deter me from becoming proud, arrogant and puffed up with knowledge or at least slow down that tendency a bit.  I get depressed and angry when I hear of other people who have been instantly delivered from their addiction to nicotine and alcohol. I have never lasted longer 6 months in my efforts to quit. Please pray for me...

[hebrewroots98]

Paula, cute pix!

Seeker, I understand you apprehension to share these truths with your pastor at this time; it takes great discernment and love to know when a peson is ready for receiviing these gems. You are just letting the hloy spirit guide your steps, and I think you are right to wait before showing these things to your pastor at this point.  (We knew immediately that our pastor had NO DESIRE to know these truths, but we sure was hoping to share.   )  I think that one of the hardest things to do is to judge correctly wether these loved ones are truly interested in truth or just playing the role;  sincee we don't want to see any bad in them.  But, when I did see them in this light, it hurt my heart to learn that they were not interested b/c most of them (had idols of their hearts and) that God was not their first love .

Seeker, depression seems to be ailing alot of people in our world lately.  (Proverb 15:13...A MERRY HEART MAKETH A CHEERFUL COUNTENANCE: BUT BY SORROW OF THE OF THE HEART THE SPIRIT IS BROKEN (DEPRESSED.))  Just stick with us and we will deliver lots of good words for you on a daily basis.  As for your other carnal ways, it is all in Gods' timing to heal you; as HE knows your needs before you do.  Keep praying and I will as well. 

IN HIS LOVE...

[DWIGHT]

Hi Brother Seeker,

I sent you a PM since you asked about me.  I just want encourage you and let you know that none of us will judge you for any sin that you've commited for all have sinned and that includes me brother.  This place may be the best medicine that you'll ever experience.  Sometimes I find myself down or discouraged, but when I come here, my spirit is so lifted up that I actually feel a part of the ascension of Christ.  Our Lord is so wonderful to us and knows our every weakness....but when we are weak, then and only then, can we be made strong.  I used to think that I could go it alone, but God has shown me that I need the brothers and sisters desperately....we need each other brother, so take heart and stay the course and God will surely bless you as He has blessed all of us here.

God be with you,

Your brother Dwight

[hebrewroots98]

Amen!  We all have weaknesses and sins and we will continue to battle it everyday of our lives, and for the rest of our lives. Let Jesus and us help you to carry your burdens brother!    

[Chris R]

To Chris R.  Peace Brother! My choice of words was perhaps unfortunate when I said "Argue and sharpen iron against iron".  In todays climate the word "Argue" has taken on a very negative connotation of hostility and defensiveness. I use the word in the more positive sense of sharing thoughts and ideas,testing one against another,reasoning an idea out with the goal in mind of mutual benefit to both parties. In the Classical sense of the word  it IS possible to "Argue" for hours without ever being defensive or raising one's voice, since both parties are searching for truth rather that simply trying to forcefully impose your ideas on the other person. Once emotions and hostility enter an arguement all hope of reasoning together is lost. The discourse has turned into an infantile shouting match...  I learned to "Argue" in the classical sense while serving in the military. It doesn't pay to get hostile and angry when both parties are armed and dangerous!!! LOL  In a very real sense we are ALL armed and dangerous because WORDS can injure and destroy just as surely as any weapon of warfare. As a matter of fact I believe that words are MORE REALthan the entire physical universe. Heaven and earth will pass away, but God's word will endure forever. We shall be held accountable for every idle word , etc..

Hello Seeker,

Please understand, on a forum "tone" is not discernable, it is up to the reader to understand if posts are sincere, or hostile, you will have to admit, this can be a daunting task. sometimes we really have to pay close attention to what we write.

Welcome aboard

Chris R

[seeker1]

OK Chris R. Point taken,  I am very new to this posting business and computer dialoging. I use a one or two finger hunt and peck typing and am very slow, so the posting I did here is more than all the typing I have done in about the last six months.. I really do want the truth or I wouldn't go through this agony of hunt and peck. I know nothing of posting etiquett so if I make a mistake or step on toes it will most likely be through ignorance or poor word choice.
   Dwight sent me a message and I replied to it , but I don"t see it posted anywhere. I suppose I did something wrong when I sent it. I really don't know how to navigate or send messages very well. However if somebody would like to challenge me at" Half life 2" " Quake" " Doom" or any other popular first person shooter, you may find a worthy opponent!!! LOL   Until I stumbled on this website that was about all I did on the computer...   that brings up a question, anyone have any thoughts on the approprietness of playing such bloody and violent games? Several times I have felt sort of guilty, not so much about the time involved but the violence part.

[PKnowler]

Hi Seeker1,

   When you send mail a copy doesn't stay in your sent mail unless you check the save box in the bottom left hand corner of the email you send. It looks like this:

      [X] Save a copy in my outbox

When you get mail. Scroll to the top of the page and look in the upper left hand corner. It will look like this:
 
Hey, Seeker 1, you have 2 messages, 1 is new.

Click on the hyper link in messages to check your message. On that page you have to scroll down the page to get your message. The more messages you accumulate the more you have to scroll down to get your new message.

Just don't send Longhorn an email he never checks his mail. hint hint!

I hope this helps.

Blessings! 
~Paula