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Author Topic: God's only begotten Son  (Read 14403 times)

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Robin

  • Guest
Re: God's only begotten Son
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2007, 06:14:58 PM »

This was all new to me when I got here Darren so I have much to learn and I'm not in any position to see what is right or wrong with any of the comments unless I've read something that Ray said. I'm eager to watch and learn though. I struggled very hard with this when I first got here. I came to a simple understanding that I was comfortable with after much prayer. It was a hard teaching for me to accept at first.
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: God's only begotten Son
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2007, 08:20:09 PM »

M.G.

You are doing fine! I'm kind of different because I want to quite a few different churches growing up, and they all differed to a greater or lesser degree, so I kind of didn't believe any of it. That is what differed from what I read and studied myself. Being told that I wasn't spiritually mature enough to understand a concept that "they" couldn't explain always seemed like an oxymoron to me. :)

It's a great place to learn so please never be afraid to ask for understanding; for there are many here more knowledgeable than I. :)

Brotherly love in Christ,
Darren
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DWIGHT

  • Guest
Re: God's only begotten Son
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2007, 09:52:48 PM »

Hi Allan and Darren,

Brothers, I think that you are both seeing the same thing from a different perspective.  Jesus is both the first creation and the eternal Son of God.  Again, this sounds like a contradiction, but it isn't. 

Listen to what Isaiah says, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."  How can something created be called, The mighty God, The everlasting Father?  Well, it just said so.  The only begotten Son is The mighty God and The everlasting Father.  Don't try to read something into it; it is what it is.  It doesn't say that He's like the Mighty God or He's like the everlasting Father; it says, He is The mighty God, he is The everlasting Father....that's His name, that's what He shall be called.

Now, this scripture is a witness to the scriptures that Darren quoted.  "In the begining was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word....WAS GOD." Jn. 1:1  So, we have proof that Jesus was God...even as Ray points out that Jesus Himself never claimed to be God...but thought it not robbery to be equal with God...

Now, Paul says in Col. 1:15 "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:..."  and in Rev. 3:14 "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:"  These two scriptures match the fact that Jesus is the first of all of God's creation, these are the scriptures that Allan quoted.  Both are 100% right.  Jesus is the almighty God, the everlasting Father, the Word, who was God, and the firstborn of every creature. 

It all goes back to cause and affect.  When a husband and wife come together they create a child.....male and female=child.  They caused a child to be created.  Right?  God, being male and female, created the only begotten Son who is the firstborn of all creation.  The earthly child was always in his earthly father as long as that father has lived.  But the Spiritual Father, has always lived, and has always been eternal.  Therefore, the Son who was always in the Father, is therefore, also eternal. 

Can Jesus be both?  Yes, the scriptures say so.  Ray says, we just have to believe the scriptures.  This is very deep, but I believe that God wants us to know the deep things of God.

In Him,

Dwight



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Alan

  • Guest
Re: God's only begotten Son
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2007, 10:23:06 PM »

Hey Darren,

I think I see what you are saying now!

I will quote you....."That God, created Christ (Jehovah) is a given, but there is no Scriptural proof to my knowledge that ever states when. We simply do not know; however, the Scriptures do say on this matter:"

There is no scriptural proof of when God created His Son and I'm not saying that there is.

We do not know what happened before Genesis 1:1, but I believe that Christ was created and not infinite as the Father is.

God could have created Him right before the creation as we know it, or it could have been way before. From my understanding, time has no relevance in the spiritual realm.
I believe that when the holy scriptures talk about the beginning, I always equate it to the start of Genesis. I will post some of the scriptures you use....

Rev 1:8  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning (of creation=Gen 1:1)  and the ending (when death is destroyed, Christ is in subjection to God and God is all in all), saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Jhn 1:1  In the beginning (of creation) was the Word, and the Word was with God (with God, pre-existing but not eternal/infinite), and the Word was God. (My father and I are one) 
Jhn 1:2  The same was in the beginning (of the creation) with God.

(((((((((("So if the begining means of all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers (Col 1:16)" Then this surely means that: "Christ was eternal with the Father before the start of creation" )))))))))))

This only means that we don't know when Christ was created, but He wasn't eternal with the Father. Anything that comes out of something is not eternal, but something that has a beginning. When exactly that beginning was.......maybe we will find out when we are given spiritual immortality!

I'm not trying to debate.....and I hope I don't come off harsh and cold.

In Christ,

Alan











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Joey Porter

  • Guest
Re: God's only begotten Son
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2007, 12:05:47 AM »

I don't think that a belief that Christ was not "created" in any way would be synonimous with a belief in the "holy trinity" as it is taught in mainstream Christiandom. 

Let's go to the scriptures:

Romans 1
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised.


The KJV renders it "worshipped and served the creature." This verse is a clear admonition against the worship of anything or anyone that has been created.  And yet we know the scriptures also say:

Matthew 28
9Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.



Hebrews 1
6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
   "Let all God's angels worship him."


Romans 8 also presents a problem for us if we believe that Christ is a part of creation.

20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

I just don't believe we can do justice to the scriptures or to Christ by calling Him a creature. 


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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: God's only begotten Son
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2007, 12:13:14 AM »

Joey, for all its worth, I agree with your last statement 100% :)

I believe that as God the Father is eternal, so too is the Son.

Love,
Darren
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: God's only begotten Son
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2007, 12:23:44 AM »

Alan wrote:

Rev 1:8  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning (of creation=Gen 1:1)  and the ending (when death is destroyed, Christ is in subjection to God and God is all in all), saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


Ah....Alan now I see where you and I differ in our reasoning.

I do not believe that the beginning refers to creation and neither do I agree that the end is when death is destroyed. Rather I believe that both God and Christ always were, are, and always will be, that they both are the Alpha and the Omega. Have you noticed that it is Jesus is referring to himself as the "Almighty?".

Does that make sense?

Love,
Darren
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Joey Porter

  • Guest
Re: God's only begotten Son
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2007, 01:03:42 AM »

Joey, for all its worth, I agree with your last statement 100% :)

I believe that as God the Father is eternal, so too is the Son.

Love,
Darren

Hi Darren.  Here's another thing to consider.  That is the concept of time.  When exactly did eternity mesh into time? Or more precisely, when did God create time?  Christ would have had to have existed before the existence of time,  because time was created.  And we know that all things (including time) were created through Christ.

In other words, how could the first 3 "days" spoken of in Genesis be literal days as we understand them in our concept of time?  Notice that the sun was not even created until the fourth day.  And we know that a ''day'' is constituted by the earth making a complete rotation, facing and turning away from the sun. 

So, if Christ was already in or with God before time, and before all creation, how does that relate to the concept of eternity?  I don't claim to have all understanding on this complex issue, but I also think the scriptures are clear that Christ is not a part of "creation," or at least, not a part of the creation which is subjected to the bondage of decay.   :)
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 01:04:25 AM by Joey Porter »
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: God's only begotten Son
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2007, 11:20:16 AM »

Joey,

I understand exactly what you are saying. Even the concept of the speed of light (Light yrs) is solely reliant on our measurement of time and that is how long the Earth takes to rotate on its axis. When one begins to consider that many scientists believe that could be as many as 100 billion galaxies, our concept of time seems puny indeed. :)

But here is where it get's tricky, regardless of the measurement scale used, there has to be a then, is and future. Which fits with Christs own words:

Rev 1:8 ".....saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

It is my understanding that the "is" begins on the fourth "day" of creation.

Another thing that we must never forget, and that is how many God "days'' were there before the first day of creation? I think this is where the concept of eternity begins, because there is no way of measuring or even comprehending?

Fascinating don't you think? :)

Adds a whole new perspective to the following:

Rom1:20   
  • For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
  • [/color]

Great post Joey,

Love,
Darren

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Bradigans

  • Guest
Re: God's only begotten Son
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2007, 01:30:03 PM »

Correct me if i'm wrong, but i think what you're saying is that Jesus is THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD, just as Eve was begotten of father Adam from his heart.

Now Adam wasn't a begotten Son but a made son. Genesis 2:7 says - And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (THE SPIRIT); and man became a living soul. It's almost like Pinnochio.

Anyway, Jesus didn't come in this way. He did not come out of the dust to get into physical creation. He was begotten of THE FATHER or He was the Begotten of THE FATHER as Eve was of Adam. John 1:18 - No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom (THE RIB TAKEN AWAY) of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 Corinthians 15:45-46 - And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. This is why i'm beginning to believe that Adam was made to fall.

Hebrews 2:10 - For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

IN HIS LOVE,


Bradford   
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: God's only begotten Son
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2007, 02:12:08 PM »


1Tim 1:4  nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies,
which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith.

I could not see clearly on this topic so I decided to call Ray, this is a scripture he gave concerning this discussion.  Endless genealogies has a spiritual meaning, speculation, and that we should not do it..

I have read through this thread and the brief conversation I had with Ray about this subject, leads me to say that Alan has got this right, thanks Alan.  Christ was created and His coming out of God does not change that or make Him eternal. 

So as Ray said, I do not want to speculate on anything else concerning this topic  :)

Bradigans, here is what Ray has to say about the idea that Adam was made to fall.

http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html -------------------------------------------------

THE UNSCRIPTURAL ‘FALL OF MAN’

Since both theories stated above teach a "fall of man," it is needful that we briefly address this unscriptural theory. I, as well as most of you have heard of the "fall of man" hundreds if not thousands of times. One would think there is reference to "man’s fall" at least a few dozen places in the Bible. NOT. The fabled "fall of man" is not mentioned in the Bible because it is just that—A FABLE. Man was NEVER a perfect spiritual specimen in the very image of God who then "FELL" from that lofty position. No, man was "naked flesh"—SIN. Man [humankind] was a sinner who when given the opportunity, SINNED.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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iris

  • Guest
Re: God's only begotten Son
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2007, 02:29:32 PM »

Thank you Kat! May God be with you and continue to open your eyes to see more clearly.  :-*

And thank you Ray! May God be with you and bless you.

Peace and Love,
Iris
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: God's only begotten Son
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2007, 02:30:59 PM »

Kat, my dear sister :)

Thanks again for pointing us in the right direction. I believe I was not seeing Alan's real point.

So I decided to research the word "Eternal" and this is what I found: :)

Eternal (aionios {ahee-o'-nee-os}) [Strongs 166]

Outline of Biblical Usage
  1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
  2) without beginning
  3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

So you are of course perfectly right. :) It matters not when Christ came out of the Father; rather, that he did. Therefore, Christ did have a beginning and thus can never be classified as eternal in the complete sense, becasue he is is not "without beginning."

Thanks for contacting Ray and giving us his feedback in a loving matter. :)

Brother Love in Christ,
Darren
 
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DWIGHT

  • Guest
Re: God's only begotten Son
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2007, 04:11:22 PM »

Thanks kat,

It's good to have a clarification because it was getting a little bit out of hand.

God bless,

Dwight
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rrammfcitktturjsp

  • Guest
Re: God's only begotten Son
« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2007, 05:02:16 PM »

To All,

  Christ had a beginning?????  Wow, this is getting deep.  If there are resouces that go into this more deeply in Ray's papers, please by all means post them.  I am thouroughly confused.  I thought that Christ said he was the beginning and the end, and to meet those fufillments you would have to be outside of time.  If he had a beginning was he in time or something else.

  I was understanding this thread, until this came up.  Please help, I am a little lost.

  Sincerely,




  Anne C. McGuire
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: God's only begotten Son
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2007, 05:25:48 PM »


Hi Anne,

Here is a section I took out of the Trinity paper.  I think this might help you  :)


http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html -------------------------------------------------

Who and What is Jesus Christ?

Jesus Christ IS A MAN! "For there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR of God and mankind, A MAN, Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).

"Thou art the Christ, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD" (Mat. 16:16).

"Christ, Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God" (II Cor. 4:4).

"The Lord Jesus Christ, the SON OF THE FATHER" (II Jn 3).

"The BEGINNING of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14 JKV)

"God’s CREATIVE ORIGINAL" (Rev. 3:14 CLNT).

"If God were your Father, you would have loved Me. For OUT OF GOD I CAME FORTH and am arriving" (John 8:42).

"Nor Jesus said to him, Why are you terming Me good? No one is good except ONE, GOD" (Mark 10:18).

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was the Word" (John 1:1). (This is the proper order of the Greek words. Jesus is the Logos or Spokesman of God).

I believe most can see from the above Scriptures that there are numerous and fundamental differences between the Father and Jesus the Son. However, there are still reasons to ask whether or not Jesus Christ, the Son of God the Father, is not also "God.?" Is Christ for example, not worthy our worship? Dare we worship any but "God?" And if Christ is indeed "God," when isn’t He of the very same status, rank, authority, etc., as His Father? Good questions. Let’s take them one at a time.

Is Christ God? YES HE IS!

"Yet to the Son [this is GOD speaking]: ‘Thy throne, O GOD, is for the eon of the eon..." (Heb. 1:8).

And also:

Who [Jesus], being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging [taking by force or plundering] to be EQUAL WITH GOD" (Phil. 2:6).

Is Christ worthy of worship? YES HE IS!

"And lo! A leper, coming to Him, WORSHIPED Him, saying..." (Mat. 8:2),

"lo! One approaching Him [Jesus], a chief, WORSHIPED Him..." (Mat. 9:18),

"Now those in the ship WORSHIP Him, saying, ‘truly, God’s Son art Thou!’"

"Yet she, coming, WORSHIPS Him, saying, ‘Lord, help me!’" (Mat. 15:25).

So Christ is called "God," and did not consider it pillaging to be "equal" with God, and was often "worshiped." So surely, even if Christ is not the third person of a trinity, He must at least be the second person of a duet! SURELY, HE IS NOT! Let me explain.

Jesus IS God! True, but this fact does NOT make Him the FATHER! Let us always read and believe the Scriptures. The English word "God" is translated from the Greek word Theos which means PLACER or DISPOSER. ANYONE to whom the Father gives such an office of "placer or disposer" is a God! Notice what God says in Psalm 82:6,

"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."

Jesus explains this verse for us:

"Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your law, that ‘I say you are gods’? If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came [and the scripture can not be annulled], are you saying to Him Whom the Father hallows and dispatches into the world that You are blaspheming,’ seeing that I said, ‘Son of God am I’? If I am not doing My Father’s works, do not believe Me. Yet if I am doing them, and if ever you are not believing Me, be believing the works, that you may be knowing and believing that in Me is the Father, and I am in the Father."

Okay then, let’s notice a few very important points. Jesus never came out and said "I AM GOD!" He always called Himself, "The Son OF God." Recall that Jesus did not consider it "pillaging" to be equal with God. That is, he didn’t need to steal, or take His office by FORCE, because His God, the Father, GAVE ALL THINGS TO HIM FREELY! Though Jesus is certainly "God," we must always remember that everything that made Him "God" (like His Father), WAS GIVEN TO HIM! Is there anyone who would suggest that someone GAVE God the Father all that He possesses? I think not. There is clearly a distinction--we have a "Father" and a "Son," NOT two equal Gods of a so-called trinity.

Notice that Jesus always acknowledges His subjection to His Father:

"Jesus, being aware that the Father has GIVEN ALL INTO HIS HANDS, and that He came out FROM God and is going away TO God" (John 13:3).

"Now the Father, remaining in Me, He IS DOING HIS WORKS" (John 14:10).

"And the word which you are hearing is NOT Mine, but the Father’s Who sends me" (John 14:24).

"I am going to the Father, for THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I" (John 14:28).

"Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, THE SON HIMSELF ALSO SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO HIM Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all" (I Cor. 15:28).

These Scriptures are clear, and there are many more like this. The Father is GREATER than His Son, and the Son will ALWAYS be subjected to His Father. They are NOT two, coequal Gods of a fabled trinity. They are "Father and Son." They are "FAMILY!" And the "spirit of God" is just that, the spirit "OF" God, not "the spirit God." And Jesus Christ has this SAME SPIRIT in Himself also. And it is THIS VERY SPIRIT that God the Father gives to US through His Son, Jesus Christ. It is not difficult to understand if one will simply believe the Scriptures.

Again, I want everyone to take note that when Christ speaks of the close relationship between Himself and His Father, He NEVER includes the "holy spirit" into that relationship! This is surely not an oversight on Christ’s part.

Our Lord gives us a beautiful metaphor in these same chapters of John. Jesus says:

"I am the true Grapevine, and My father is the Farmer... I am the Grapevine. You are the branches" (John 15:1 & 5).

Notice that the holy spirit is NO PART of this analogy. Now seriously, if the holy spirit were a third personality or god of the trinity, then why does it have NO PART in so many dozens and dozens of Scriptures like this one? Surely if there is a trinity, the holy spirit could represent maybe the soil, or the sunshine, or the rain, or at least be some part of this analogy with the Father, the Son, and the Saints, don’t you think? But no! The holy spirit is not mentioned. That is because it is not necessary for it to be mentioned, and also because it is not a third god of a trinity.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace, and love
Kat


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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: God's only begotten Son
« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2007, 05:35:07 PM »

Hello Kat

Thanks for the direction....it got me thinking ....again...

Kat Ray says pay attention to the WORDS.

He said : Christ was created and His coming out of God does not change that or make Him eternal.

i know by now that Ray does not say things superficially. As i understood and really looked closely at what Ray says I see this. Please correct me if I am wrong. Ray said about Christ....as I see it and maybe not as Ray means it.....help me here please...

…His coming OUT OF GOD does not change that ( He CAME OUT OF GOD) or that HE came out of God does not make Him eternal.

Now that would be the same for us too wouldn't it! Our coming out of Babylon doesn’t make us elect. Our being faithful to God and to the end ~Does~ !

Our being "called" does not make us "chosen"….our being chosen makes us chosen!

That Christ died as the sin offering,  completed the work His Father sent Him to do.  THEN....


Heb 5 : 10 Being designated and recognized and saluted by God as high Priest after the order with the rank of Melchizedek.

Can this relate to once resurrected the Elect too will share in the inheritance of Chirst in this Priesthood of Christ.

On a lighter note :)

I found out that elect is short for electric….this Forum is an electric place. :D ;D

Thanks for any more insights and direction Kat.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 05:39:19 PM by Arcturus »
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rrammfcitktturjsp

  • Guest
Re: God's only begotten Son
« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2007, 06:06:46 PM »

Kat,

  That was very helpful, I will have to go and read that paper fully.  There's just so much wealth of Truth to read from, and it is spread before me like a banquet table, and it is hard to choose which to read first, becuase they are so fufuilling and rewarding to read.

Arcturus,

  That is an interesting parrarell for sure.  I am very interested in what Kat has to say.  Yes this forum is quite electric.  Good pun.  Kudos to you.  I love puns keep them coming, those bring little patches of sunshine into my life each day.

  Sincerely,




  Anne C. McGuire


P.S.  - If I  have hijacked this thread, please let me know, and I can start an appropraite thread.

  ACM
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: God's only begotten Son
« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2007, 06:08:27 PM »

Anne asked:

Christ had a beginning??  Wow, this is getting deep.  If there are resouces that go into this more deeply in Ray's papers, please by all means post them.  I am thouroughly confused.  I thought that Christ said he was the beginning and the end, and to meet those fufillments you would have to be outside of time.  If he had a beginning was he in time or something else.

I was understanding this thread, until this came up.  Please help, I am a little lost.


Anne, there has been much truth uncovered here. I to held that Christs words in Rev 1:8 spoke of him being the beginning and the ending. :)

Rev 1:8  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Actually, haven given this some thought, I believe now that what Christ was speaking for his Father, not of himself. Here is my reason:

Jhn 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.

If they are one in everything except their being, then surely Christ can speak for His Father.

There is also a verse in Isaiah that might shed some light on this:

Isa 41:4
  • Who hath wrought and done [it], calling the generations from the beginning? I [Jehova], the first, and with the last; I [am] he.

We know from Rays studies that Christ of the NT was Jehovah of the OT. So let's pay particular attention to what is being said here.  :)

Jehovah say's they he was the first born of all creation

Col 1:15  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

However, the word creature is not exactly correct ion this instance. The word used is ktisis and its first meaning is "Creation"

Creature ktisis {ktis'-is} [2937]

1) the act of founding, establishing, building etc
   a) the act of creating, creation
   b) creation i.e. thing created
       1) of individual things, beings, a creature, a creation

Are you still with me? :)

The words "and with the last" cannot mean that he "IS" the last. By his own words, he is with the "last," for we know that God the Father is the one and only Alpha and Omega! :)

I hope that helps a little,

Brotherly Love in Christ,
Darren
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: God's only begotten Son
« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2007, 06:58:30 PM »


Hi Arcturus,

All things come from God, even the earth came from God, and it is not eternal, but physical.

Psa 90:2 Before, the mountains, were born, Or thou hadst brought forth the earth and the world, Even, from age to age, thou, wast GOD. (Rotherham)

Quote
Can this relate to once resurrected the Elect too will share in the inheritance of Chirst in this Priesthood of Christ.

That sounds like what these scripture say.

1Pe 2:9  But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for His own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.

Rev 5:10  and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth."

"Electric forum, that is good  :)


Hi Darren,

I believe in Col. 1:15-20 this is speaking about the creation and not eternity.

Col 1:15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
v. 16  For by Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17  And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
v. 18  And He is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything He might be preeminent.
v. 19  For in Him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
v. 20  and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of His cross.

The creation was made through Christ and for Him, v.16. 
"He is before all things,"  in the creation, v. 17
"He is the beginning," of the creation, "that is everything He might be preeminent," v.18
And it will be "through Him" that the whole creation will be reconciled, v. 20

It just seems to me that where Christ is concerned it involves the creation. He was brought forth of the Father to bring about the creation, to be God over it and to substain it. It's contrary to God's ways now (Rom 8:7), Christ will bring all the creation to sudjection to the Father and He will turn it all over to the Father in the end, so "God may be all things in all."  The Father is supreme (John 10:29) and all this done totally by the Father's will.

1Co 15:28  But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subject to Him who has subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all things in all.

Where the scripture speak of eternity, that is not translation correctly and is referring to a period or age of the creation. Ray has an article on this - Is "Everlasting" Scriptural?
http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 01:59:17 PM by Kat »
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