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[Kat]

Hi Dwight,

If Abraham, Isaac and Jacob have to go through the LOF, then why did Jesus say, " Matthew 8:11 - And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven."  Unless there is more than one kingdom; which I don't think there is.  But then in the very next verse, Jesus says, "But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

I was thinking about this, and the scripture say some will enter the kingom before others.  Here is scripture on the same subject.

Luk 13:27  But He shall say, I tell you, I do not know you; from where you are. Depart from Me, all workers of unrighteousness!
v. 28  There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you will see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves being thrust out.
v. 29  And they will come from the east and the west, and from the north and the south, and will recline in the kingdom of God.
v. 30  And behold, there are last ones which will be first, and there are first ones which will be last.

So if you consider that some will enter the kingdom before others, as in the last (Strong: lowest) in carnality, will be first to enter, and the first (Strong: chiefest) in this present world will be last to enter the kingdom.  Now I would think that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and all the prophets would be among the first to enter the kingdom out of the Lake of Fire.
So I can see the many coming to sit with them in the kingdom are those coming out of the Lake of Fire after them.  
Now about verse 12, "But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness:"  What came to my mind is that God referred to Israel of the Old Test., as the children of the kingdom.

Exo 19:6  And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words which you shall speak to the sons of Israel.

Jesus had already referred to Israel in Mat. 8:10.  And as you said the children of Israel were a shadow of things to come, yet they still were a literal people.  So there will be those 'children' that will cast into the Lake of Fire and have a longer stay there than Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
So does this seem to be a possible way that this can be understood?

Are there other people outside of the New Jerusalem?

Rev 21:2  And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her Husband.
Rev 21:3  And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them as their God.

Seem like New Jerusalem is the elect, as it says the bride, this is the kingdom of Christ coming to the earth.
When christ's kingdom first comes to the earth all nations/people will be outside of it, until they have been purged and given the truth and brought to salvation.

Anyway that is how these scripture seem to go together to me.  It would be great if someone could give more scripture or help with this  

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Kat

I too have been pondering this topic. Here are some more scriptures. Paul has just been explaining that the resurrection of the dead is to be raised as a spiritual body.  He explains the first man Adam and the last Adam Christ.

Now we know we are in a process of becoming the image of Christ. That this process is continuing and at the resurrection some will emerge as the elect and others will still not be perfect images of Christ. Here is where it gets interesting because now Paul starts to talk about perhaps, the others who will not be admitted entry into the kingdom after resurrection.

1 Cor 15 : 50  But, I tell you this, brethren, flesh and blood cannot become partakers of eternal ( we know this to mean aion) salvation and inherit or share in the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable that which is decaying inherit or share in the imperishable the immortal.

Not all will inherit immortality and freedom or immunity from decay.

Paul continues in vs 51 Take notice! I tell you a mystery, a secret truth, an event decreed by the hidden purpose or counsel of God. We shall not all fall asleep in death, but we shall all be changed 52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the sound of the last trumpet call. For a trumpet will sound, and the DEAD IN CHRIST WILL BE RAISED IMPERISHALBE….

NOT ALL ARE DEAD IN CHRIST….
I believe that upon the return of Christ, not all will be able to meet Him in the air because some will be earth bound in carnality that yet has to be purified off them through the LOF


Is this specualtion? Are there other scriptures that witness to this? We know the scripture is not of its own interpretation! Are there other pointers to verify this possibility someone.

Kat I believe that your insight regarding what Dwight presented rings true.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[Deborah-Leigh]

Kat

This scripture also came up  in the Re: The supposed "secret" rapture...
« Reply #17 on: Today at 12:00:26 PM »     

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello Medias Res

Your question caused me to look up the scripture and I found this from the Amplified Version

Prov 10 : 30 The consistently righteous shall never be removed, but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.

Perhaps this means the wicked will be cast out into the outer darkness after Jesus returns. What do you think?

One think I can observe is that maybe I am learning to dig for treasure better perhaps. In the past I did not even have a clue that scripture was spiritual!....not of its own interpretation and requiring a second witness!

Peace to you

Arcturus

[Kat]

Hi Arcturus,

Pro 10:30 The righteous, to times age-abiding, shall remain unshaken, but, the lawless, shall not inhabit the earth. (Rotherham)

I think this maybe talking about in the kingdom, the righteous elect will rule, so there will not be allowed to be lawlessness/wicked on the earth.

v. 51  Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
v. 52  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
v. 53  For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
v. 54  When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

There are those that are living on earth at the return of Christ that are not in the first resurrection, but they must live on.
But those that are raised in the Great White Throne judgment now have deathlessness, I mean death and the grave are cast into the lake of fire, so they are over with.

Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.

Rev 21:1  Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

This is when Christ returns, there will be a new heaven and the new earth, that is His kingdom come.

v. 2  And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
v. 3  And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.
v. 4  He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."

And here after the new heaven and new earth are set up, verse 4 says there is no more death. The kingdom is on earth, and there are still people living on earth and yet there is no more death, that ends with Christ's return.  
This whole chapter 21 is about the kingdom on earth... then down in verse 24 there are nations/people, both from those alive at His return and those raised? And verse 27 says there are those that cannot enter because they are still unclean, it is only for those spiritually pure/perfect as spiritual being now.

Rev 21:24  By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,
v. 25  and its gates will never be shut by day--and there will be no night there.
v. 26  They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.
v. 27  But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

Kat my sister

I went to study that scripture you kindly located for me. Look what came up......

This is so interesting.       Look at that scripture you found for me Rev 9 :6.  And in THOSE DAYS people will seek death and will NOT find it; and they will yearn to die, but death evades and flees from them.

Kat....THOSE DAYS are only after the FIFTH ANGEL BLOWS HIS TRUMPET! Check out the thread of this prophesy. Look at Rev 9 : 1.....Jesus is not even back yet with the blast from the seveth trumpet or are we not seeing that all the trumpets ARE CHIRST? Just like all the seven Churches are ONE?

What do you think? ......

Peace to you

Arc.

[Kat]

Hi Arcturus,

I think that would help explain a lot of things 

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[DWIGHT]

Hi Kat and Arturus,

When the Lord comes at the last trump, and gathers His elect from the four corners of the earth and the dead IN CHRIST are raised from the dead; then He sets up His kingdom.  This is the first resurrection.  There are still unbelievers left on the earth that are called the nations.  These are ruled and judged by the chosen; and Satan is cast into a bottomless pit for a thousand years.

"And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Rev. 21:1-6

After the thousand years, Satan is loosed from the pit and makes war with the saints (chosen).  Then comes the second ressurection and the GWT.  This is when the just and the unjust stand before God and everyone will be judge according to his works.

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Rev.21:5-15

Then after the GWT judgement Jphn says,

" 1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful." Rev.22:1-5

Now, this is how I see it, but of course I could be wrong.  what do you think?

Love,

Dwight

 

[Kat]

Hi Dwight,

What you have just stated is the way I used to believe.  I had to rethink all of what I believed because I was bringing some things I learned in church into my ideas.  Nothing that the church teach is right, Ray has pounded that home to me.
One thing that is important in all this.

2Pe 3:8  But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Those period of time hold little meaning with this verse in mind, the numbers are all symbolic. 

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[sansmile]

Yes   Dwight Yes,


Thats what i see,  death is not thrown into the pit until AFTER His reign on earth. There will be those that are still unbelievers and those that are still living (but of the elect) when Christ returns. The OT  patriarchs  will still be in their graves. They died without receiving the promise.

[sansmile]

Sorry posted without finishing ;


(Heb 11:39)  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

(Heb 11:40)  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.



So, they hadn't received the comforter.

So am i wrong in seeing that the new heaven and earth will be AFTER  the GWJ because He says it will be after death is thrown into the LOF??

And arcturus  the seventh trumpet is the last, reaching perfection.

And destroying all things of men, like in Jericho:

(Jos 6:15)  And it came to pass on the seventh day, that they rose early about the dawning of the day, and compassed the city after the same manner seven times: only on that day they compassed the city seven times.

(Jos 6:16)  And it came to pass at the seventh time, when the priests blew with the trumpets, Joshua said unto the people, Shout; for the LORD hath given you the city.

So perfection for those who are not of the elect wil come when the walls fall and a new earth is created?? After the elect have reigned and death is destroyed??


Am  i rambling here???    Great thread!

Sandie  GB this forum

[DWIGHT]

Hi Sandie,

Jericho is a great example, I never thought of it in that way, but it makes sense.  Everything in the OT is for our examples.  Thanks  Sandie.

Dwight

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello there fellow seekers!...brothers and sisters

here is where it gets different for me....

Rev 20 :5

In this verst the words "Butr the rest of the ded lived not again untill the thousand years were finished"....what if I were to tell you that I believe with all my heart and mind that those words are spurious and that they are NOT found in the oldest and most reliable Greek MSS, Sinaitic, Vatican Nos 1209 and 1160 nor the Syriac MS....then could you see where my view point is coming from?

I like your neat arrangement into time order...the sequence of Death being overcome in the end but what about the scriptures that repeat that Jesus comes in wrath?

We know that where we are now in the time line of events that will culminate eventually in all being saved and God being all in all, that right now we are not there yet.  The world continues to career into deeper and deeper darkness and faithlessness. When Jesus returns what faith will He find remaining? He asked that question to indicate that the times are going to get rougher not smoother and I know that this deviates from the point here a little but it is meant to give a bigger picture and not critisize anyone.  From where I am seeing, the world is dying and might now be more properly described as dead than as alive. Even Paul cried at what he forsaw as coming against the Church and the deception that would increase in the wave up to the return of Christ.

My question is why put the fifth trumpet in Rev 9 : 6 into the picture at trumpet number five. What does THAT mean?

I see the Millennial age as the age of the return of Christ what will usher in the  WTG!

Peace to you

Arcturus

[DWIGHT]

Arcturus,

There are so many difficult verses in prophecy that are yet veiled to us at this point.  I hope Ray's "Hell, Part D," will uncover some of this mystery for us.  In the meantime, I think that what you said about the world careering deeper and deeper into faithlessness and the road getting rougher and rougher for us is of paramount importance.  When He returns, will He find faith on the earth?  It's plain to see, that the deception is growing and Babylon's blinding messages are more and more prevalent. 

At this point sister, I don't know what all the trumpets mean or if the verse you quoted is or isn't in the original manuscripts or if there is a correct chronological order to the end times, but I do know, that what you said is true about things getting worse and worse.  Never before do we need each other and our Lord more than we do now.  We need to stay together in oneness of spirit and love one toward another and so much more as we see the day approaching.  I really believe that Satan knows that his time is short, and now more than ever seeks to devour those whom he believes are the Lord's elect.

My heart is so filled with the anticipation of the Lord's return, that I can hardly contain myself.  We are so blessed of the Lord to have found each other with just a vapour of time left.  May the Lord continue to bless our fellowship and the building up of His body to the glory of God our Father.

In Him, your brother

Dwight   

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Dwight

Never before do we need each other and our Lord more than we do now.  We need to stay together in oneness of spirit and love one toward another and so much more as we see the day approaching.  I really believe that Satan knows that his time is short, and now more than ever seeks to devour those whom he believes are the Lord's elect.

You make it so easy to stay in oneness of spirit and love one toward another and towards you Dwight...thank you.

Josh gave me a link to check out OT Hebrew and NT Greek meanings. Yesterday I nearly fell off my chair! I went to check out that Rev 20:5 line and found out that the word finished means "should be being finished".............so whether or not Rev 20 : 5 does or does not have authority to be in the word of God or not....the Hebrew meaning brought a different aspect to the text for me that does not conflict with starting to see that everything that Christianity taught is unscriptural as Ray also says in a recent e-mail response I read somewhere. I personally believe ( rightly or wrongly) that when Christ returns it will be with His throne and not without it because He comes to reign. His throne is His authority symbolically, over evil and His elect will share in that authority.

Mystery Babylon is a liar teaching that when Christ's Millennial Kingdom is inaugurated everyone will be pelased with its ruling.  But I don't think so. Liberites to decieve, to misrepresent, to defraud others will be entirely cut off. For those who love Christ, we will be happy but for those who abuse themselves or others and who have license under darkness to do wrong, they will feel the iron rule and this will consequently be felt as a severe breaking up of alltraditions of men and customs and institutions that have been founded upon corruption, false ideas and bondage.

Isaiah 28 : 17 I will make justice the measuring line and righteousness the plummet; and hail will sweep away the refuge of lies, and waters will overwhelm the hiding place.....

Matt 10 : 26...there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed, and hid, that shall not be known....

...but before that, let us remain united in our view that things are going to get worse not brigther and as Ray once wrote to me " There will be no world peace - God has already decreed it."....

We who are not of the world  have come out....to meet our Lord....for we can hardly wait for Him to return. As you say Dwight, Satan seeks to devour but I think he is just doing his job to tempt whoever he can to return to worldliness, to go back to Egypt and return to the Mother Harlot and her sing song seductions of carnality. He will not succeed with the elect. The Mother Harlot and her daughter can offer us nothing of purity or holiness but only wretched plagues for her sins. I know you know that Dwight and in this let us remain united in everything Ray has taught us as we wait for part D to encourage us in wisdom and in our faith. Till then brother...

Peace to you

Arcturus



I agree with you that Ray’s part D will sort out much of the grey areas and that we look to him as our teacher.

Peace to you
Arcturus,