Jesus and the tomb

[TimothyVI]

But he was risen, in a spiritual body, what does his earthly body have to do with anything?

He was seen many times in a spiritual body, not his eartly body.

Will we die and be risen in our eartlhy bodies?

No we won't and Jesus wasn't either.

Craig

Mar 16:6      And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.

So obviously, if they find his body in the tomb, then the NT writers lied, when they wrote "he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him [it's supposed to be empty].

So if it;s not empty, then houston we have a problem. What happened to his earthly body then? I always looked at it like Jesus' earthly body was transformed into a spiritual body, that's why it wasn't there.

I agree with you Sorin. If they could prove that the bones   were those of Jesus ( which is impossible to prove anyway),
it would add fuel to the story that his body was merely secreted away, and the desciples lied when they claimed that He was risen and
the tomb was empty.

Even  though it can not be proven, these kind of stories are just a continuing attack on Christianity.

Tim

[TimothyVI]

I guess I should have said followers of Christ.

Tim

[B18bhatch]

John 2:19
"Jesus answered and
said unto them, Destroy
this temple, and in three
days I will raise it up."

[skydreamers]

Hi Arcturus, I've wondered about what you posted as well, in fact just in the last couple of days (coincidence?). You said:

Will some of us be raised to a physical body again as was Lazarus and others who Jesus restored to life?

Will perhaps the many and the lost be raised to physical life to continue life on earth as Christ and His Elect rule and straighten out things through the LOF WTJ?

Any thoughts?....answers....Huh

Peace to you

Arcturus

And I was thinking of these scriptures:

Ezekiel 37:1-14 ESV
1  The hand of the LORD was upon me, and he brought me out in the Spirit of the LORD and set me down in the middle of the valley; it was full of bones.
2  And he led me around among them, and behold, there were very many on the surface of the valley, and behold, they were very dry.
3  And he said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" And I answered, "O Lord GOD, you know."
4  Then he said to me, "Prophesy over these bones, and say to them, O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
5  Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live.
6  And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live, and you shall know that I am the LORD."
7  So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I prophesied, there was a sound, and behold, a rattling, and the bones came together, bone to its bone.
8  And I looked, and behold, there were sinews on them, and flesh had come upon them, and skin had covered them. But there was no breath in them.
9  Then he said to me, "Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, Thus says the Lord GOD: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live."
10  So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army.
11  Then he said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are clean cut off.'
12  Therefore prophesy, and say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will open your graves and raise you from your graves, O my people. And I will bring you into the land of Israel.
13  And you shall know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves, and raise you from your graves, O my people.
14  And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD."


What are these scriptures all about?  This sounds like people are being resurrected to "physical fleshly" bodies.  Is this what is going on and if not then what does this all mean?  Are these people being raised to the millennial rule do you think?  It sounds so bizarre...

Peace, Diana 

[Deborah-Leigh]

Diana

That is some interesting and applicable scripture! But before I get into what you have posted allow me to thank you very much for the transcribe you have done for all of us. I am extremely grateful for that study in writing. Thank you so much!

Now.....yes....lets see what we can come up with here. The scriptures that trigger my question are these ones. Firstly Jesus says in Matt 5 : 5 Blessed are the meek; for they shall inherit the EARTH.

Rom 8 : 19 For even the whole creation all nature waits expectantly and longs earnestly for God's sons to be made known, waits for the revealing, the disclosing of their son ship

Will the Kingdom of God have an earthly phase?  We know that the spiritual is invisible to the carnal man.

1 Tim 6 : 16 Who alone has immortality in the sense of exemption from every kind of death and lives in unapproachable light, Whom no man has ever seen or can see.

John 1 : 18 No man has ever seen God at any time; the only unique Son, or the only begotten God, Who is in the bosom in the intimate presence of the Father, He has declared Him, He has revealed Him and brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He has made Him known.

Will there  be human representatives who will mediate between heaven and Earth. Who will  Govern between earthly Nations and Christ and His Elect in the Kingdom to come?  Will these representatives be Abraham, Isaac and Jacob...?

Luke 13 : 28 There will be weeping and grinding of teeth WHEN YOU SEE Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God.....29And people will come from east and west and from north and south and sit down, feast at table in the kingdom of God.

Diana, I think God is using us to stir up some questions and excitement in anticipation of what we are going to see in Ray's part D soon to come!....That's what I think sister!    

Peace to you

Arcturus

[YellowStone]

Great discussion Diana and Arcturus

I am not sure if this will help, but the Scripture I am going to reference is an instruction on the manner how to pray;

Mat 6:9  After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mat 6:10  Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.

I agree with all that you have both stated

I do find it very interesting concerning how christendom has taken these instructional words of Christ and turned them into "The Lords Prayer" and repeat them religiously (no pun intended) every week; while totally ignoring Christs on instruction of not using "vain repetitions."

Mat 6:7  But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Will there  be human representatives who will mediate between heaven and Earth. Who will  Govern between earthly Nations and Christ and His Elect in the Kingdom to come?  Will these representatives be Abraham, Isaac and Jacob...?

Luke 13 : 28 There will be weeping and grinding of teeth WHEN YOU SEE Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God.....29And people will come from east and west and from north and south and sit down, feast at table in the kingdom of God.

Arcturus, I really think you are on to something here.

Love in Christ,
Darren

[Deborah-Leigh]

Maybe Darren....we will just have to wait and see....

Calling Ray....

callling RAY....

calling RAY SMITH....

Calling L Ray Smith.....Hey RAY

Ray we are hungry for part D......Hey Ray...We love you too!

[Kat]

Hi Arcturus and Diana,

I too think on these things about the kingdom.  We often read this scripture, that we are arised in a spiritual body.

1Co 15:44  it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

But who is Paul talking to here, the brethren or elect is who he addresses at the beginning of this chapter.  These are the elect he is saying will be in the first resurrection.

1Co 15:1  And, brothers, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you have received, and in which you stand;

In the scripture you gave Diana, it does not sound like the few/elect that is being talked about.  It says their hope is lost and they are cut off.  There is no mention of being raised as spirit either.  

11  Then he said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are clean cut off.'

I think what you stated Arcturus is likely.  It is an interesting subject to comtemplate  

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

p.s.  Ray said his part D was up to 70 pages, the longer he takes the more he adds to it, I think it will be worth the wait 

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Kat

So the scriputure that Diana brings forward could be the lost called many....?

I recall somewhere that Ray was asked what would happen to aborted babies. Did he not say they would be restored to life and given their life to live out again under a new administration.....(something like that???)....like...they were too young to sin so they are restored to life on earth as they are not ELECT faithful to the end so to speak?

It is great sharing, caring and contemplating the word of our God.

It is wonderful that Ray is working on part D....70 pages....already! Bless that man!

Peace to you as we hold our Peace!

Arcturus your sister.

[hummer]

[Elvis is alive in the hearts of the many who are called though he sleeps (dead) in his grave, Jesus Who lives, Who is LIFE, is dead to the many who are called, that's why they look for signs and wonders, what is physical (Literal) not what is TRUTH (SPIRITUAL).


Skip

[Kat]

Hi Arcturus,

The valley of dry bones appears to me to be all of humanity that have ever live, except the elect.
I think this is the email you were referring to.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,201.0.html -------------------------

Dear Matt:

There are only two resurrection to immortality.

The first is for the chosen elect overcomes explained in part in (I Cor. 15).

All others--children, criminals, mentally challenged, the many called but not chosen, etc.

In the case with children we are told:  "There shall be no more thence
an infant of days, nor an old man that has not filled his days: for the
child shall die [spiritually die to his carnal mind purged through judgment] an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old [and not yet purged of his carnal mind through judgment] shall be accursed [until he IS thoroughly purged]" (Isa. 65:20).

God's judgments are both light and harsh. (See Luke 12:45).

Many will freely enter God's judgments and will then enter into God's realm sooner. The harden criminals will have to be "THROWN into this fiery judgment of the carnal mind and human will which hates the ways of
God. (See Rev. 20:15).

Sorry, but this is a huge subject requiring hundreds of pages to cover the details.

God be with you,
Ray
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just one more peice to the puzzle 

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

Amen Kat

truly a precious piece to add!

Here is what I see....quoting Ray....Many will freely enter God's judgments and will then enter into God's realm sooner. ...INTO GOD'S REALM....The realm of Christ and His Elect....? The realm of the Spirit?

Peace to you sister

Arcturus

[Kat]

Hi Arcturus,

Yes, God's realm is His spiritual kingdom. 
I think Ray is saying that there will be many that will enter freely/willingly to accept Christ's judgment.  Because it won't take long for people that do not live really wicked lives to be purged and brought to right understanding. These will be those who get a few stripes and actually I can think that there will be those that get no stripes at all, think of the babies raised up. 
Some will take a really long time before they are cleansed, I suppose, and then they have to learn the truth too.  I long process for some, but we all will finally be all in all.

mercy,peace, and love
Kat

[skydreamers]

Hi Guys, a quick reply while my son is at school and my little one is napping.....stolen moments you know!  Love my little ones, but boy they can be a handful.  God sure is teaching me a lot through them...


Arcturus you said:

Will there  be human representatives who will mediate between heaven and Earth. Who will  Govern between earthly Nations and Christ and His Elect in the Kingdom to come?  Will these representatives be Abraham, Isaac and Jacob...?

This is very interesting, I hadn't thought of this before.  I wonder however, if "human representatives" would be needed though, since though spirit is invisible it is apparently capable of "appearing" as human forms (eg, the various forms Jesus took after his resurrection).  So it's possible that the elect and Jesus will appear visibly to the physical people (if that is the case).  I know we'll find out when the time comes, but it fascinates me nonetheless. 

Is it possible that the elect are raised spiritual, but the rest of humanity are raised physical (as in Ezekiel) after which they experience the Lake of Fire, through which they will eventually be transformed into spiritual beings....is this the second death??  But then really, what would be the point of that, unless as Arcturus pointed out, babies (for example) need to still live a full "fleshly" life and then be transformed.  Boy, this can get confusing.  Lots to think about!!

As Kat, pointed out, there will likely be varying degrees of purification amongst people and some will be entering the "realm" of God sooner than others.  Perhaps this is why people will be "gnashing their teeth" as they behold Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob who will enter the Kingdom far sooner than most of humanity.  But this leads me to a question:  do I remember this correctly...did Ray once say somewhere that there are NO old testament people who will be part of the elect in the first resurrection??  I can't remember if he said that or where I am getting this from...If this is true, than Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob come up in the second resurrection having to go through the Lake of Fire??  This would truly be bizarre, these great men of faith!  But God does work in mysterious ways.

I suspect there will be a lot of Christians who will have a harder time of it in the Lake of Fire than some secular people, since many have clung to their "eternal hell" doctrine.  Will they first experience God as they perceived him in their lifetimes before the truth is revealed to them?  Because if so, this would be a terrible fate.  To actually come up in the second resurrection experiencing and believing for a time that you have ended up in your believed fabled hell!!  Now, that would be scary!!  These scriptures come to mind:

2 Samuel 22:27 ESV
27  with the purified you deal purely, and with the crooked you make yourself seem tortuous.


That would be enough to make anybody grind their teeth!

So Kat, if the valley of dry bones is all the rest of humanity (besides the elect) are they raised to a physical body which is still immortal in that through purging etc. the physical person is transformed to a spiritual person?  I once read a study by Eby where he explained the process that materials go through when they are burned...a firelog burning transforms into other elements...it doesn't disappear, it just changes form.  And notice that fire always burns upward (towards the divine).  I thought this was a beautiful description.

Oh, oh...my little one is awakening...gotta run...sorry, i hope I've made sense...i know i was all over the place!

Peace, Diana

[Kat]

Hi Diana,

As far as I am seeing this, the elect will be in the first resurrection, the dead will be raised as spirit, the elect still living will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.  I think it is like you said Diana, they will be like Christ, so they can appear in the flesh as need be.
The rest of humanity are raised in the flesh physical, it is the second death, spiritually.

Rev 21:8  But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

They have to go through the Lake of Fire and die to the flesh, and have all the things in verse 8 burned out.  But they will be immortal, because they will not have a physical death again. 
I believe they will be resurrected the same as they were before they died, and have the same personality and same way of thinking, and then they go to the Lake of fire, as Ray said in the email;
----------------------------------------------
Many will freely enter God's judgments and will then enter into God's realm sooner. The harden criminals will have to be "THROWN into this fiery judgment of the carnal mind and human will which hates the ways of God. (See Rev. 20:15).
---------------------------------------------------

Those entering freely I think are like Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as you can only enter the kingdom through Jesus Christ and they never knew Him, so they must go through the Lake of Fire, as all Old Test. people will.

Joh 10:9  I am the door. If anyone enters in by Me, he shall be saved and shall go in and out and find pasture.

The prophets of the Old Test., Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and any that did not live terrible evil lives, so they will recieve few stripes and have a shorter time there, but I guess there will be all varying lengths of stay there, depending on how much has to be burned out of them.

Luk 12:48  But he not knowing, and doing things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For to whomever much is given, of him much shall be required. And to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

All not in the first resurrection, will have to go into the Lake of Fire.  They must first be purged of all their carnal ways, then they must be taught the truth and live an obedient life, just as the elect are doing now.  For some the length of time will be short, and then they will be changed just as those still living at Christ's return, and they will enter the kingdom as Spirit.  But only the ones that are in the first resurrection will 'reign' with Christ.

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

Kat

That was beautifully expounded.

I believe the Elect will be those who are glorified with Christ and will share in His inheritance.To this end Paul knew he was running his race for that high calling!

John 5 : 26 For even as the Father has life in Himself and is self-existent, so He has given to the Son to have life in Himself and be self-existent.

1 Cor 15 : 53,54 For this perishable part of us must put on the imperishable nature, and this mortal part of us, this nature that is capable of dying must put on immortatlity, freedom from death. 54. And when this perishable puts on the imperishable and this that was capable of dying puts on freedom from death, then shall be fulfilled the Scripture that says, Death is swallowed up utterly vanquished forever in and unto victory.

The Elect will already have this reward but all the others  who did not die and become burried with Christ or recieve the baptism, regeneration from above, begotten anew, conversion and testing judgments and who are tried and proven faithful to the end, in otherwords everyone else, the many, will go to the second death LOF.  That will be more difficult because becoming dead with Christ now before His return is acceptable to God - a sacrifice of sweet odor. But afterwards....where does the scriptures say, many will long for death and it will not come...What you wrote Kat : But they will be immortal, because they will not have a physical death again. caused me to think again!

Peace to you

Arcturus

[Kat]

Hi Arcturus,

I think the scripture you are referring to is in Rev. 9.

Rev 9:6  And in those days people will seek death and will not find it. They will long to die, but death will flee from them.

So much is going on there, too much to speculate about.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[DWIGHT]

Hi sisters,

If Abraham, Isaac and Jacob have to go through the LOF, then why did Jesus say, " Matthew 8:11 - And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven."  Unless there is more than one kingdom; which I don't think there is.  But then in the very next verse, Jesus says, "But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

These dry bones in Ezekiel are talking about Israel being dead and then being made alive; but we know that we are the Israel of God and this was just a shadow of things to come.  So maybe Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are just a shadow as well.  

I'll tell what has always bothered me and that's in Revelation.  In the New Jerusalem, there is the tree of life on either side of the river...right?  And it says, that the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.  What nations?  Are there other people outside of the New Jerusalem?  Apparently!

Man there is a lot we don't know, isn't there?  But we are in the right place to hopefully find out.  In the meantime, its wonderful to fellowship and share our thoughts with each other.

God bless,

Dwight

[Deborah-Leigh]

Kat

thank you very much fro that scripture. Yes that is the one that fits!

Amen

Peace to you

Arcturus

Yes Dwight I think we are exactly where God wants us! Amen to you too bro

[hebrewroots98]

This is so great to try to figure out these tough issues that have been on our hearts for so long!  I am excited to know the outcome.  GoOd job broTHers and sisters in presenting all of the dif. scenarios!  You are so close, keep it going...  (I REALLY, REALLY WANT TO KNOW THE CULMINATION OF ALL OF THIS. )