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[Brett]

Hello!

Do you know what religious in Babylon? Remember, Babylon is not literal, it is spiritual.

Is Babylon are Christendom but not from Muslim, Buddha, Catholic (Mary), Mormon, etc? The reason why I asked because my mind has been thinking since over year ago. I will tell you what I was thinking. All Christians who say, "In Jesus name" or "only one Christ", "one Bible alone" are Babylon because they using name of Jesus only and one Bible only. Same as "Lord, Lord, have we not..." (Matt. 7:22-23). But Babylon are not Catholic, Mormon, etc. because they don't use name of Jesus only, they added Mary, Joseph Smith, etc before Jesus, and they don't use one Bible only because they added another books before Bible. Those are called Pagans but not Babylon. (??) That is what I have in my mind. I do not want wrong thinking. I don't know if I am right. Hope you can help .


So, what religious are in Babylon, do you know?



***No discussing over Mormon, Catholic, etc issues. Only what religions in Babylon.***

Brett

[YellowStone]

Hi Brett,

For what it is worth and I am sure to be corrected if I am wrong (I hope)

But I think that any recognized church today and that includes JWs, Mormons, Catholics, Baptists, etc, etc, etc. are in bed with the harlot (Babylon)

I would not think that the Eastern Relgions need come out of her for I do not believe that they were ever in her; however, I am not so about the Muslim religion. Someone more learned than I can tackle that one

Well you did ask

Love to you,
Darren

[psalmsinger]

Hey,

I may be out of line here, but it is my thinking that all religion, education, political, and economic systems are "Babylon".  The "Whore" that sits upon the babylon system would be the christian churches that partake of her evil ways in one form or another.  Every person would then need to come out of babylon and turn to Jesus Christ as the way, truth and life.  The only trouble is the "whore" will ensnare the new believer first because she shouts "Lord, Lord," and deceives.  As part of the "whore", you have to come out of babylon once again.........  confusion reigns in the old world........

Don't be too hard on me....I am coming out of her as well:)

Barbara

[Craig]

Hey,

I may be out of line here, but it is my thinking that all religion, education, political, and economic systems are "Babylon".  The "Whore" that sits upon the babylon system would be the christian churches that partake of her evil ways in one form or another.
Barbara

Barbara,

Good obeservation, I never thought about, that I'll need to study further but it makes alot of sense.  The Bride of Christ is talked about alot, when I think of Bride I think of purity, virginity, etc.  Whore could be the church who, though they may be called, are not pure, virginal, etc.

Interesting

Thanks
Craig

[Chris R]

"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying ‘COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE, that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues" (Rev. 18:4).

Come out of… who? Who is the "her?" Her is a WOMAN. A woman in Scripture is a symbol for a CHURCH.

Who is to "come out?" Answer: "MY people." Where are they? In her, in the CHURCH. What Church? The MOTHER CHURCH. Who is the MOTHER CHURCH?

The church that appears to be so good, with good doctrines, and good teachings and spiritual appearing good works and righteousness, which in reality are abominations:

[Ray Smith]  LOF part XI

 It is the church that worships the God of Abraham, BUT in reality are sent a delusion, that they should believe a lie.

None of Babylon denies the Lord, They do in fact call him "Lord Lord"..It is then that Christ says to them , Why do you call me Lord Lord, and do not the things i say? It is any church that teaches Christ crucified, and has little to do with other religions.

Best way i can explain it.

Chris R

[Sorin]

Exactly Chris R, Christendom calls Jesus "Lord, Lord" not The Muslims and not the Jews, Pagans, The World System, etc....
And God's people wouldn't be Muslims, or Jews, but those who believe upon his {Jesus'} name.  Since it says "COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE it's talking about the Folllowers of Christ, they're in Babylon, every single church you see, all the christian radio stations, and tv channels, that's Babylon.

Being all clean cut, with a suit and tie asking for money while people are starving in other countries [and some in this country], that's Babylon. How many christians do you know that are not all 'clean cut' and think themselves better than others? They do all these physical things, as if God would be impressed with how clean and shaved he is on the outside.

Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

Luk 11:39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.

That's Babylon. I've a uncle who is a diehard Pentecostal, and all his male kids have their hair cut nearly bald, as if it's a "sin" to have it a little longer, or as if that somehow impresses God.   

That's Babylon. They clean the bowl on the outside, they {Pentecostals} think that if you never drink even a sip of wine, or beer, then you are in God standing with God. And if you do take a sip, you're not. I still can't get them to believe that Jesus even drank wine, and that drinking in and of it'sself is not a sin. now there's nothing wrong with not drinking alcohol, but to say that it's a sin to do so, even at a wedding, or a special occasion is preposterous.

The worst one, was they asked my why am I wearing a bracelet around my arm, that it's a sin to wear a bracelet. I asked him why is he wearing a Rolex watch? He said "to have a way of knowing what time it is"   

I said, you're cell phone tells you the time, you don't "need the watch eighter". So a bracelet is a sin because it's only for style, design, but a $10k Rolex is not because it tells you the time, even though you have a cell phone which also tells you the time?  See the hypocrisy, and judgemental attitude that 'caused me to have second thoughts after I became a Christian? And this is only a minor example of Babylon. if you didn't show up in a Mercedes or BMW you were looked down upon, yes, at church mind you. Don't you know God only cares about the rich? 



Sorin.

[YellowStone]

Sorin wrote: 

That's Babylon. They clean the bowl on the outside, they {Pentecostals} think that if you never drink even a sip of wine, or beer, then you are in God standing with God. And if you do take a sip, you're not. I still can't get them to believe that Jesus even drank wine, and that drinking in and of it'sself is not a sin. now there's nothing wrong with not drinking alcohol, but to say that it's a sin to do so, even at a wedding, or a special occasion is preposterous.

The worst one, was they asked my why am I wearing a bracelet around my arm, that it's a sin to wear a bracelet. I asked him why is he wearing a Rolex watch? He said "to have a way of knowing what time it is"   

I said, you're cell phone tells you the time, you don't "need the watch eighter". So a bracelet is a sin because it's only for style, design, but a $10k Rolex is not because it tells you the time, even though you have a cell phone which also tells you the time?  See the hypocrisy, and judgemental attitude that 'caused me to have second thoughts after I became a Christian? And this is only a minor example of Babylon. if you didn't show up in a Mercedes or BMW you were looked down upon, yes, at church mind you. Don't you know God only cares about the rich? 

Well said Sorin!!!   (Standing Applause!!!)

The hypocrisy of the church is staggering and they are so conceited they will never see it unless God (the same God they profess to worship) intercedes and opens their hearts.

Great Post!!

Your Brother in Christ,
Darren

[jennie]

Hey ya'll, I just have to say again that our little church is not like that. We have no gloriuos building must a concrete block structure. We don't care what people wear, what they drive, how their hair is or how much money they have. We live in a pretty poor and rural area and our goal is "whatever it takes" meaning whatever we can do do it for God's glory to help others. We each family brings food that we keep there to have on hand in case anybody come by needing groceries. On special holidays we take dinner to our police officers who are working, fireman and so on. We just try to love the Lord with all our hearts and to "be Jesus with skin on" to anyone. Jennie

[carol v]

My ex-presbyterian minister doesn't understand God's sovereignty and plan so he teaches that the Word is full of the superstitions and interpretations of ancient men. He also teaches it's the Word of God. If you try to pin him down on which is the Word of God and which is the superstitions of man, he shrugs and rolls his eyes.

I have had long discussions with a Presbyterian who is very close to me who seems to be on the brink of seeing things, and this minister will come in as a fowl of the air and eat every single seed planted. God's counsel and will of course.

Jennie, does your church believe in the salvation of all and the sovereignty of God? I'm curious because I am still the only "one" I know in my whole town of 10,000.

carol v

[jennie]

We do believe wholeheartedly in the sovereignty of God and that Jesus sacrificed for all so that all our sins are covered by the sacrificial blood of Jesus.

[mcmiller]

Hello everyone, it's been a long time since I posted here.
Interesting question posed.  Some have implied that the only Babylon we can come out of is the "Christian" church.  In thinking about this and our understanding that what applies to us applied in the first century and will also apply in the future, I asked myself the question "What Babylonic christian church did Paul come out of ?" Paul was a Jew and came directly from Judaism into the truth. Does this mean that Judaism is also Babylon?  Peter came directly as did many in the first century.  Others came directly from paganism from Asia Minor. 
I think that the confusion concerning Babylon comes from how we choose to define it.  We can choose a restricted definition or one that is more global.  Is it possible that Babylon is the whole world system of religion and economics, and christianity is just a part of this global system?

I'll do more Bible research and maybe post again.

Mark

[Kat]

This is excerpts from ray's Lake of Fire no. 8 article.

http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html -------------------------------------------

But of the "many called," we are told, "few are chosen" (Matt. 20:16). Why is that? God has intended it to be such. We are given the parable of the "sower of seed" where much of the seed fell by the side of the tilled soil, and the birds ate it; some had no depth and withered in the sun; still more fell among thorns and were chocked, but some fell upon good soil and produced much fruit. Many seed are sown, but few seed produce good fruit. "Seed" we see everywhere in the Church; "fruit" of God’s spirit is more rare. These few have the added designation of:

"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful" (Rev. 17:14).

These are the "very elect" who cannot be deceived any longer by the Great Whore, "Mystery Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots, and the Abominations of the earth."

Paul knew that much of his labor in the gospel would fail to bring most of the saints to spiritual maturity. Paul came out of the Great Whore Church, the Mother Church of Judaism. Paul knew that the Church of Jesus Christ would likewise become corrupted and commit spiritual fornication with the world. And so, just as Paul came out of religious Babylon, everyone reared in the daughter harlot churches, must likewise, "Come out of her My people."

Paul knew that just as he had to come out of religious Babylon, those under his evangelism would also have to one day come out of the New Testament Church of God’s Babylonian practices. In our next installment we will see just what these practices and doctrines of the Seven Churches are, that we must "Come out of…"
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I think that Babylon is referring to anyone that worships God. 
That would include God the Father, that the Jews claim to worship, though it is Jesus Christ.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

12 July last year e-mail to Ray under the title John 17 : 9  perhaps helps.

Dearest Ray
 
You are a "ray" of light! Please would you tell me what Jesus could have meant in John 17:9 where He excluded the world in His prayer. Who did he mean to be excluded?
 
Thank you & bless you
Deborah


Dear Deborah:
Good question.
The "world" represents two entities in Scripture:  [1] The Church, Judaism, the Whore, Mystery Babylon the Great, and [2] The social system of the nations in general.
 
Jesus referred to both in John's Gospel account:
 
"...but be of good cheer; I have overcome the WORLD"  (John 16:33).  What "world?"  Did He overcome China?  Japan?  Indonesia?  No, Jesus overcame the world of Judaism--"He came unto His own [the Jews] but they received Him NOT," and hence He had to overcome them all the days of his earthly ministry.
 
But in John 17:24 read, "...for You loved Me before the foundation of the WORLD" is speaking of the whole "cosmos"--the whole system of world governments.
 
Jesus prayed for NEITHER of these two "worlds," as their destiny is solidly fixed by God's divine providence, and therefore prayer would be of no value. Jesus does not pray that His Father's Prophecies should NOT come to pass, and neither do God's Elect pray such nonsense as is parroted daily over the air waves "pray for world peace."  Nonsense. There will be no world peace--God has already decreed it.
God be with you,
Ray

I see the Pagan systems of Egypt to be part of the social systems of the world in general to include Muslim nations and Hindu Nations and Buddhist Nations etc.

What is interesting is the call from God to us is to come out of Her the Church, and we are also warned not to love the world!

[TimothyVI]

My ex-presbyterian minister doesn't understand God's sovereignty and plan so he teaches that the Word is full of the superstitions and interpretations of ancient men. He also teaches it's the Word of God. If you try to pin him down on which is the Word of God and which is the superstitions of man, he shrugs and rolls his eyes.

carol v

Hi Carol,

Perhaps your ex-presbyterian minister was not too far from being correct.
The problem comes when we believe that every word in the bible is inspired by God.
I am not sure that everything that was said by anyone in the scriptures are to be considered the word of God.
The scriptures were a whole bunch of stories, within which were some spoken words of God.

The scriptures themselves tell us to not believe everything that is written because the scribes lied.

Jer 8:8     "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made {it} into a lie.

Moses came down from the mountain with a whole bunch of laws supposedly given by God. These laws included all of the sacrificial laws. And yet God told us through the great prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah that all of that burning of things for him was an abomination to him. He never commanded it.

Jer 7:22   "For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. 
Jer 7:23   "But this is what I commanded them, saying, 'Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you.' 

Isa 1:11     "What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?" Says the LORD. "I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams And the fat of fed cattle; And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats.
Isa 1:12     "When you come to appear before Me, Who requires of you this trampling of My courts?
Isa 1:13     "Bring your worthless offerings no longer, Incense is an abomination to Me. New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies-- I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly.
Isa 1:14     "I hate your new moon {festivals} and your appointed feasts, They have become a burden to Me; I am weary of bearing {them.}

The scriptures just tell us what Moses said. They do not tell us that what he said was true.
Maybe Moses just made some things up on the way down the mountain. Moses gave us the laws concerning tithing.
The people must tithe to only the levite priests forever. Did it just happen to be a coincidence that Moses was from the tribe of Levy?

Just because it is said to have happened in scriptures does not necessarily mean that it is true.

I am not trying to teach outside of what Ray teaches. These verses are in accordance with Ray's
teaching concerning things like tithing and observing the sabbath.

Tim

[Deborah-Leigh]

Tim

Thank you for those revealing scriptures.

I do not believe they are outside of what Ray teaches either because I have heard Ray say somewhere in relation to what King David wrote that David wrote and said that NOT GOD!

Perhaps someone will know exactly where this reference is? I know I have heard or read it and Ray said it and I believe it!

It directs my attention again to the teaching Ray gives us on Relative v's Absolute from Exposing those who contradict.  3.
 Dr. James Kennedy A Sermon Denying God’s Responsibility to Save Africans quote :

RELATIVE VS. ABSOLUTE

If a theologian can't see the "absolute" versus the "relative" in Scripture, he is in no position to teach anyone.

A little boys asks: "Why did God say in Gen. 3:9: 'Where art thou [Adam]?' Mommy says that God knows everything." (I Jn 3:20). You say, "Of course God knew where Adam was. Adam sinned. Adam felt bad. He thought he could hide from God. God was condescending to man's level. It was for Adam's benefit that God asked, 'Where art thou Adam?'" You say, "That's not a problem. That's easy to understand and answer. It's stupid to think that God didn't know where Adam was."

And, of course, we have Scriptural proof that God knew where Adam was because "He [God] knows all" (I Jn 3:20)

Neither did our Lord ask questions out of ignorance:

"Believe ye that I am able to do this?" (Matt. 9:28)

"Who is my mother, and who are my brethren?" (Matt. 12:48)

"How many loaves have ye?" (Matt. 15:34)

"Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?" (Matt. 116:13)

Christ asked dozens of questions during His ministry. But He already knew all the answers:

" ... because of His knowing ALL men ... " (Matt. 21:27).

Christ even answered questions by asking questions. The Pharisees asked why His disciples transgressed the "traditions." Our Lord knew how to "answer a fool according to his folly" (Prov. 26:5) by asking: "Wherefore are you also transgressing the precept of God because of your tradition?" (Mat. 15:3)

This brings up another apparent contradiction, however, because Prov. 26:4 says: "answer not a fool according to his folly ... " Our Lord knew how to do that as well: "Neither am I telling you by what authority I am doing these things." (Mat. 21:27). These two scriptures in Proverbs should teach us to never pit one verse of Scripture against another. Verse 4 and 5 do not contradict. They are both true.

So if it's stupid to think that God didn't really know where Adam was, a relative statement condescending to man's level, isn't it then, likewise, stupid to believe that God contradicts Himself in the following verses:

 

THE RELATIVE:
 THE ABSOLUTE:
 
" ... seek, and ye shall find ... " (Mat. 7:7) "Not one is seeking out God" (Rom. 3:11)
"God changed His mind" (Ex. 32:14) "God is not a man Who changes His mind" (I Sam. 15:29)
" ... choose you this day whom ye will serve." (Josh. 24:15) "Ye have not chosen me,
but I have chosen you ... " (Jn. 15:16)
" ... whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God ... " (I Jn. 3:10) "All is of God" (II Cor. 5:18)
"Zechariah was just before God" (Lk. 1:5) (Comparing him to the corrupt priests) "Not one is just" (Rom. 3:10)
(Comparing man with God)

 

One is the "relative" the other is the "absolute." One is from man's point of view, comparing men with men, the other is from God's point of view. One shows how a thing is perceived while the other shows how it actually is. One is for minors while the other is for the mature.

Both Scriptures are true. The relative is true and the absolute is true. They do not contradict. However, one really is "relative" while the other is "absolute."

Theologians are always taking Scriptures that speak of the relative, from man's point of view, and insist that these verses are absolute. By doing this they commit a double sin. Because then they insist that these relative truths actually nullify God's absolute declarations. They won't admit to this in their own words, but this is what they do when they retain the "relative" at the expense of rejecting the "absolute."

Even theologians admit that their free will theory is limited. So they have invented "limited free will." They use analogies like a cow on a tether or a fly in a jar or a lion in a cage. Their freedom is limited to the confines of their restraints, but within those confines they are nonetheless, free. Is this true? Is there such a thing as "limited" free will? Or is this just more theological double-talk?

Only in religion do simple words lose their meaning. Let's look at Webster's Twentieth Century Dictionary: Page 963, "limited, a. Restricted." Page 682, "free, a. without restriction." So here then is what theologians want us to believe: Man has a will that is restricted without restriction.

Man does not have "limited" free will. Otherwise God would have "limited" sovereignty. Man has no free will and God has total sovereignty. Theologians try to make high what is low and try to bring low what is high. These teachings do not glorify God.

Somebody has been taking William James too seriously. God is not sitting around waiting to see what man will do through his "free will" so that He can then figure out what to do about it. Rather than conclude from the "wisdom of the world" that man has a free will (and thus deny the sovereignty of God), we must conclude that since God is sovereign, man can not and does not have a free will. This is logical, sensible, and lawful. It is Scriptural and it glorifies God.

Theologians condemn scientists for their inability to see beyond the "relative" in our universe. Surely these scientists must see that a God must be behind everything. However, except for rare persons like Dr. Einstein, they can't.

Thank you for posting your observation.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[Kat]

Hi Arcturus,

Yes, I know that statement of Ray's, it is in the Love audio/transcript.
I will bring it forward 

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2641.0.html -------------

But I have checked it out for many, many hours now, and I understand that the Bible does not contradict in this area.  God - Jesus Christ, never said you have heard, them of old say, you should hate your enemies.
First of all, God never taught to hate your enemies.  Well, where did they hear that of old?  About five times in the book of Psalms, by David, who went to his death bed hating his enemies, telling his son to kill them and make it bloody.  That was King David, not God.  But people read the Psalms and so you heard it said.  Yes, you did hear it said, but not of God.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[YellowStone]

Tim wrote:

The problem comes when we believe that every word in the bible is inspired by God.
I am not sure that everything that was said by anyone in the scriptures are to be considered the word of God.
The scriptures were a whole bunch of stories, within which were some spoken words of God.

The scriptures themselves tell us to not believe everything that is written because the scribes lied.

Jer 8:8     "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made {it} into a lie.[/i]

Tim I am sure your words will cause many to think or say: "What is he saying? That the bible is not Gods word!!!" However, what you say is not untrue and I believe Arcturus nailed it when she wrote about the differences of "relative" vs "absolute" thinking.

However, Jesus himself spoke always so that his true message would not be understood.

Mat 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:  

This of course, puts the average reader of the bible in quite a predicament, for without the eyes to see and the ears to hear, the words mean next to nothing. Likewise, their praise can be likened to the sacrifices that you mentioned.

Mat 12:34  O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.  

A very sobering thought indeed. So, if reading the Scriptures with eyes that cannot discern the truth and ears that cannot hear it, where can such as these learn the truth about God?

The Scriptures themselves give us the answer. God does not hide himself from anyone, righteous or unrighteous.

Rom 1:18 ¶

• For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; [/color]

Rom 1:19  

• Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.

Rom 1:20  

• For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Rom 1:21  

• Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Rom 1:22  

• Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

God does not "hide" himself in Scripture, nor does he hide away in the select minds of a few in the many churches that he dragged us out from.

I find the above Scripture to be a warning for us all. Because that which may be known of God has be shown us; for God himself has shown us. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that we are without excuse. [Paraphrased Rom 1:19,20]

Love in Christ,
Darren

[Deborah-Leigh]

Brilliant Kat!

OF COURSE! 

AMEN!  It really feels like we are getting the privilage of clearer focus on the ways and purposes and meanings of GOD! it is thrilling to be coming to know and comprehend God as He has chosen to be revealed to us through His Son!

Thank you for posting that!

Peace to you

Arcturus

[Mickyd]

Babylon simply means confusion.....we are all part of Babylon until we come to the knowledge of the truth and are aligned in "one mind"......the mind of Christ.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Right Mickyd!

Your post made me think of this scripture:

1 Tim 1 :7 For God did not give us a spirit of timidity of cowardice, of craven and cringing and fawning dear, but He has given us a spirit of power and of love and of calm and well-balanced mind and discipline and self-control.

For me the spirit as spoken of is the Spirit of Christ Jesus. It was He who wasn't timid...Oh you fools you snakes etc.. ..it was He who was not a coward...He went to the cross...He did not have craven and cringing or fawning fear...He spoke up to Pontius Pilate and it is He who is the Spirit of Power and Love, calm and well-balanced mind of discipline and self-control and without HIM we are timid, cowards and self decieved beasts but not forever! One day we too will have a share of who HE IS. Even now some have the fruits of His Sprit.

Peace to you

Arcturus
Arcturus