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[worm]

hey guys,
one thing I've realised when coming to the realisation of UR, is that there is NO MORE "US" and "THEM"...

it is alarming for me to still find on UR sites people referring to others as "they do this"..."they do that"..."thank God I'm not so blind anymore as them"..."they are perverting the word of God" etc etc

shouldn't the more "enlightened" ones be just that...a light in the darkness? but without pride, without being "superior"...but in love...like guides of light towards the bigger Truth?

shouldn't we strive to build bridges for people to safely "come out of Babylon"?
shouldn't we have the heart, mind and love of Christ for ALL people?
yes, even "those in the Harlot" system?
if we can't even love our brothers who are still drinking milk, how are we to love the unbelievers?

as God loves us ALL unconditionally, no matter whether we are chosen, elect, harlots, unbelievers...His plan is to save us ALL...we're not ALL on the same path...not yet...but we WILL be

so NOW...there's only "US"..."THEM" should be no longer in our vocab

anyway, just had to get this "off my chest" :wink:

[ertsky]

well i still see a "them" and an "us"

them = bondwoman, us = freewoman

Gal 4:29  But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30  Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son : for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

many (them) are called and few (us) are chosen

but yeah i agree all is of God

but i wouldn't want to point that out you think there is no them and us to Stephen

Act 7:54  When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

f

[Sorin]

well i still see a "them" and an "us"

them = bondwoman, us = freewoman

Gal 4:29  But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30  Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son : for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

many (them) are called and few (us) are chosen

but yeah i agree all is of God

but i wouldn't want to point that out to Stephen

Act 7:54  When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

f

Yeah me too. I still see a "Them" and "Us" also.  

[Craig]

Worm,

I see it as us too.

The message of UR though new and exciting to most here, is still the milk of the word.  The  message is so much more.  To die daily to self, to overcome, to have Christ's spirit truely working in us is the meat of the word.

And to that goal I am striving, like all of us.

Romans 8:
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

 22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

 23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Blessings!
Craig

[rocky]

Seems to me these "them" were the Corinthians, who Paul died daily for.  He encouraged, instructed, and his life was to preach the milk-Christ's death, burial and resurrection.  Head knowledge of coming out of babylon is not the same as experential coming out.  Unless each of us can say we are completely out, then we are yet carnal too.  

2Co 4:11  For we who live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh.

2Co 4:12  So then death worketh in us, but life in you.   This was his attitude to the "them"

2Co 4:15  For all things are for your sakes, that the grace, being multiplied through the many, may cause the thanksgiving to abound unto the glory of God.

2Co 4:16  Wherefore we faint not; but though our outward man is decaying, yet our inward man is renewed day by day.

2Co 4:17  For our light affliction, which is for the moment, worketh for us more and more exceedingly an eternal weight of glory;

2Co 4:17  For our light affliction, which is for the moment, worketh for us more and more exceedingly an eternal weight of glory;

1Co 1:3  Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Co 1:4  I thank my God always concerning you, for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus;

1Co 1:6  even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
(even though carnal)

1Co 1:7  so that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ;

1Co 1:8  who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye be unreproveable in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Co 1:9  God is faithful, through whom ye were called into the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

1Co 1:10  Now I beseech you, brethren, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfected together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1Co 1:30  But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who was made unto us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption:

1Co 2:2  For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

1Co 2:3  And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

1Co 2:4  And my speech and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

1Co 2:5  that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

1Co 3:2  I fed you with milk, not with meat; for ye were not yet able to bear it: nay, not even now are ye able;

1Co 3:23  and ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.


In love, thru death to self, life is given to "them"

[worm]

Amen Craig & Rocky!

the Scripture you quoted speaks for itself  

[Deedle]

1Jo 4:5  They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6  We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1Jo 3:1  Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

Jam 4:4  Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Mat 22:14  For many are called, but few are chosen.

Rom 9:11  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Rom 9:12  It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

Rom 9:13  As it is written, Jacob [chosen] have I loved, but Esau [called] have I hated.

Rom 9:14  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Rom 9:15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Rom 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

2Ti 2:20  But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

2Ti 2:21  If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Rev 17:14  These ["them"] shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they ["us'] that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Mar 13:13  And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mat 24:13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Joh 8:31  Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

The word "continue" in the above scripture is the same greek word translated "abideth" in the scripture here.

2Jo 1:9  Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Now back "to those Jews which believed on Him".

Joh 8:44  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Heb 6:1  Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Heb 6:2  Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal [aionios] judgment. [UR]

Heb 6:3  And this will we do, if God permit.

2Co 6:17  Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

2Jo 1:10  If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

2Jo 1:11  For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Deedle  

[orion77]

I agree with ya, worm.  The way I see it, I can do nothing of my ownself and am not worthy to see what I see now.  Just because I see clearly now, does not make me any better than the ones who don't now.  Also, the day will come when they also shall see clearly.

It all boils down to having a love for our neighbor and forgiving our enemies.  God loved us while we were blind, so we should love our other brothers who can not see clearly now.

I was once where they are now, yet now by the grace of God I see the light.  God is no respecter of persons and I from the knowledge given shall not see my other brethren in a different perspective, for I am no better than they.

It's all in Gods own due time.

God bless,

Gary

[Phazel]

hey guys,
one thing I've realised when coming to the realisation of UR, is that there is NO MORE "US" and "THEM"...

it is alarming for me to still find on UR sites people referring to others as "they do this"..."they do that"..."thank God I'm not so blind anymore as them"..."they are perverting the word of God" etc etc

shouldn't the more "enlightened" ones be just that...a light in the darkness? but without pride, without being "superior"...but in love...like guides of light towards the bigger Truth?

shouldn't we strive to build bridges for people to safely "come out of Babylon"?
shouldn't we have the heart, mind and love of Christ for ALL people?
yes, even "those in the Harlot" system?
if we can't even love our brothers who are still drinking milk, how are we to love the unbelievers?

as God loves us ALL unconditionally, no matter whether we are chosen, elect, harlots, unbelievers...His plan is to save us ALL...we're not ALL on the same path...not yet...but we WILL be

so NOW...there's only "US"..."THEM" should be no longer in our vocab

anyway, just had to get this "off my chest" :wink:

I understand your point.  As a new convert so to speak, I find my outlook  still to be them and us,  but  I feel different spiritually.

No longer will my witnessing be influenced by trying to   "Save someone from the oncoming Truck"   rather a message of truth and love to others.

My "them and us" references does not carry with it the negativity it once did.  At least I do not believe so.   I am more than willing to be shown, with scripture, an error in my comments around here, that is for sure.

[rocky]

1Jo 4:5  They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6  We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1Jo 3:1  Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

Jam 4:4  Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Mat 22:14  For many are called, but few are chosen.

Rom 9:11  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Rom 9:12  It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

Rom 9:13  As it is written, Jacob [chosen] have I loved, but Esau [called] have I hated.

Rom 9:14  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Rom 9:15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Rom 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

2Ti 2:20  But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

2Ti 2:21  If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Rev 17:14  These ["them"] shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they ["us'] that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Mar 13:13  And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mat 24:13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Joh 8:31  Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

The word "continue" in the above scripture is the same greek word translated "abideth" in the scripture here.

2Jo 1:9  Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Now back "to those Jews which believed on Him".

Joh 8:44  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Heb 6:1  Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Heb 6:2  Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal [aionios] judgment. [UR]

Heb 6:3  And this will we do, if God permit.

2Co 6:17  Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

2Jo 1:10  If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

2Jo 1:11  For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Deedle  

I think Paul did a great job of hating the world (the churches sin, the pride, the adultery, the fornication, the law keeping), but loved the person so much he died daily for their salvation.  He lived his whole life humbled by God for the salvation of the world (church).  

Christ is the savior of the world.  Christ in us.  

1Cr 2:1   And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God.  (Paul came to them, yet he himself had come out)

1Cr 3:9   For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. (Paul is the fellow worker, to the field (world/church)

1Cr 4:14   I do not write these things to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children. (the church, carnal man, his beloved children)

1Cr 4:15   For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet {you would} not {have} many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

1Cr 4:16   Therefore I exhort you, be imitators of me.

1Cr 4:17   For this reason I have sent to you Timothy (again, he sends Timothy to them, the very ones we are to be out of)  who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, and he will remind you of my ways which are in Christ, just as I teach everywhere in every church.

2Cr 1:6   But if we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; or if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which is effective in the patient enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer;

2Cr 2:4   For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote to you with many tears; not so that you would be made sorrowful, but that you might know the love which I have especially for you.

[love_magnified]

hey guys,
one thing I've realised when coming to the realisation of UR, is that there is NO MORE "US" and "THEM"...

Hi worm, I see what you are saying. While I do think there is an "us" and a "them" there is some good fruit in what you are saying:

2 Corinthians 5
For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

THAT is what it's all about. We are separated from them, no doubt about it. I have NOTHING to do with Church get-togethers and services and so on, but our ministry is reconciliation. God knows where that line is, and it takes a walk with the Spirit to know where to draw it.

[rocky]

1Cr 4:17 For this reason I have sent to you Timothy who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, and he will remind you of my ways which are in Christ, just as I teach everywhere in every church.

Does anybody else find it interesting that Paul went to churches, he sent his people to churches, to the carnal Christians for one reason; preach the gospel of Christ and for there salvation.  

Seems to me we are to come out of babylon, be seperate, but take the message of reconciliation to babylon.  

Christ is the savior of the world.  The world is babylon.  Christ in us, takes the message to them.

[ertsky]

as God loves us ALL unconditionally

is it a love of sickly sweet emotion or is it

Heb 12:6  For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

exactly how did Jesus love His enemies

by glossing over their wickedness ? or did He tell them the truth ?

Joh 8:47  He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

He that is of God = us

ye are not of God = them

f

[rocky]

as God loves us ALL unconditionally

is it a love of sickly sweet emotion or is it

Heb 12:6  For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

exactly how did Jesus love His enemies

by glossing over their wickedness ? or did He tell them the truth ?

Joh 8:47  He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

He that is of God = us

ye are not of God = them

f

he healed them, cast out their demons, fed them, hung out with them, invited them to spend time with him, called them to follow him, and for the the ones that needed it, he rebuked them.

[ertsky]

he healed them, cast out their demons, fed them, hung out with them, invited them to spend time with him, called them to follow him, and for the the ones that needed it, he rebuked them.

and how did they repay Him ?

Joh 19:15  But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.


you speak of the them He healed

the them He cast out demons

the them He fed

i don't think that was entirely the same them He said this to

Mat 23:15  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

f

this is the them i'm concerned with

2Co 6:17  Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2Co 6:18  And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

f

[gmik]

Hi y'all.  He must increase I must decrease. AS this happens I think that I will be more patient, kind, gentle etc with the us/them. Both sides are using scripture-I guess I see it as us=all people that believe in Jesus wherever they are on the journey;  them=people that hate Jesus or don't give a care one way or the other.  Me= I am to love my enemies.  UR believers= should be happy & blessed more so than anyone.

PS  Ray may have an unction to scold, criticize, rebuke as he teaches.  He is good at it, and has been called.  Most of us have not!  I am glad that while I was gone the E Mail forum can't be posted on anymore.

Anyway, good to be back.  I sure missed everyone. (It is taking me a long time catching up-lots of good stuff on the forums.)

[rocky]

he healed them, cast out their demons, fed them, hung out with them, invited them to spend time with him, called them to follow him, and for the the ones that needed it, he rebuked them.

and how did they repay Him ?

Joh 19:15  But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.


you speak of the them He healed

the them He cast out demons

the them He fed

i don't think that was entirely the same them He said this to

Mat 23:15  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

f

this is the them i'm concerned with

2Co 6:17  Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2Co 6:18  And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

f

So have you come out of babylon fully, have you overcome all your giants?  If you are not confident you have completely donethis, then let the mature cast you out too and me too.  

Again, I think Paul does a wonderful job in I Corinth. and II Corinth of explaining how we should deal with the immature.

[orion77]

Ertsky, I hear what you are saying.  What we need to be mindful of is that we were "them" in the past, and only by the grace of God are we the "us" now.  The day will come when the "them" will also be "us", and God will be all in all.  We always have to be mindful of the "is, was, and will be" spiritual aspects of scripture.

To put people in their varying degrees of their walk into different categories can seem offensive to the carnally minded who have not yet reached maturity.  After all, we were there ourselves.

The many called and the few chosen are still both Christs.  The chosen now are being judged and chastised by God now and the many called will have to go through it when the day comes.  There is no escaping His judgements.

Me, being a sinner, reformed by the Lord, do not see myself as being any better than anyone else, whether called, chosen or whoever.  I know it is only by the grace of God are my eyes opened.  I know you know these same things also.  We are to serve and to minister to those if called upon to do.  I have not set foot into a church building in a long time, for I have heard our Fathers name and character slandered enough.  I understand these people are only deceived.

That's my take on this and don't mean anything disrespectful towards you.  I have come to the point it ALL boils down to loving God and our neighbor.  I only wish to be the same towards my neighbors, whether friend or foe, in the same way God was and is towards me.  This is my goal in life.

God bless,

Gary

[ertsky]

just to make it plain

judge not is NOT a license to permit heresy

love your enemies is NOT an excuse to have a love in with a wolf

grace is NOT a sin permit

maturity is NOT an excuse to not rebuke error when commanded

IF YOU SEE ERROR and do not sound an alarm what kind of Brother are you ?

f

[Karen]

AMEN TO YOUR WORDS. LOVE ALL. BE HUMBLE AND GIVING TO ALL. NOT SOME. ~KAREN~