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[hillsbororiver]

I woke up today thinking about how conventional Christiandom ascribes so much power to Adam in regard to the "fall" of man and how little power they claim the Lord has in saving mankind.

For years I hated Adam (& Eve) because of the condition he supposedly put us in, here he is created in a perfect environment with all his needs taken care of and then goes and screws it up for everyone who came behind him. Now we have to contend with all the results of his (their) sin and maybe, just maybe Jesus can pull our fat out of the fire. What a great deal.

When Ray showed how scripture actually tells us we are still in the creation process and eventually all will be united with Him eventually it was a very liberating and comforting message, it does not always make the trials and tribulations joyful as we are experiencing them but it does give peace to know there is a mighty purpose behind it all and not just some luck of the draw.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[chav]

I too for many years believed the yarn about the 'fall of man' so it was a real eye opener when I learnt it was just another myth. I didn't actually hate Adam , but I certainly planned to have a few words with him when I got the chance.Yes God's plan for mankind is truly amazing , why did it take me fifty years to discover it ? Knowing what I know now has transformed my life.

Dave Uk

[hillsbororiver]

Amen Dave!

Took me that long as well. 

I was not in a state of continuous of hatred toward Adam, but when something really bad happened he would cross my mind and I can assure you it was not a feeling of brotherly love. 

His Peace to you Brother,

Joe

P.S. I also used to think I would not have messed things up so bad if it was me that was given the opportunity he was given, yep, wrong again! 

[chav]

Hi Joe

If Satan was in the garden with Adam , what about all the demons ? Perhaps Adam could argue that he was merely outnumbered.

Dave UK

[hillsbororiver]

LOL 

He could try it, it did not work when he blamed Eve!

Gen 3:12  And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

Peace Brother,

Joe

[Kat]

Hi Joe,

Yep, I just finished the transcript on Adam and Eve.  And the church has really got it all wrong. 
The part where it appears that Adam blamed Eve, well that's not right either. 
I think that verse 12, is more of a confession.  He knew what he had done and admitted it to God, he was ready to take his medicine, so to speak.
Going back over all that from the conference, sure is a refresher course 

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[YellowStone]

Hi Joe, Long time no see.

You were missed my brother   But it is so good to have you back.

I used to always think as Adam as being a wimp for "hiding" behind Eve, blaming something he did on her.

But then Adam was the first Adam and he was not compelled to stand-iup for Eve, even to the point of death.

However, Christ was the "last" Adam

1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

And he, Christ, willingly paid the ultimate price for his "bride" his chruch.

Eph 5:25  Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Yes it is comforting knowing that all is happening according to the will of Our Father.

Great post!

Your Brother,
Darren

[Kat]

Hi Darren,

I used to always think as Adam as being a wimp for "hiding" behind Eve, blaming something he did on her.

But then Adam was the first Adam and he was not compelled to stand-iup for Eve, even to the point of death.

But that is what Adam did.  He did stand up for Eve, that's the point, he was willing to die.
Here is an excerpt from the Adam and Eve transcript.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now interesting thing.  It says in Tim. 2:14, that when Eve took the forbidden fruit she was deceived, the serpent had deceived her.  But Adam was not deceived.  Well if she was deceived, and she ate the fruit.  Why did Adam eat it?  He wasn’t deceived, so why did he eat it?  Why didn’t he say you dumb female, you stupid wife of mine.  How could you do such a dumb thing.  No, no he did not.  She gave him some and he ate it too. 
Why, would he do that?  He knew.  Because God told him first, and He told him specifically.  And we know Eve knew because she said to the serpent, “God has said.”  But first He said it to Adam before he created the Eve.  You can eat of every tree but of this tree you can not and the day you eat there of you will DIE. (Gen. 2:16-17)
In the Hebrew, ‘to die you shall be dying.”  You will begin to die, you will be mortal and just die.  You will be mortal and come to old age and die.  So he knew that, he knew that when Eve ate it she was going to die.  He longed for that woman so long and now she is going to die.  He loved her so much, he said if she is going to die, I’m going to die with her, and he ate the fruit.  He knew full well he would die, and he said I’m going with her.  I’m not going to let her go alone, you see.  So he was willing to die for that woman.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just thought I would bring this point out 

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Kat,

Thank you for the reminder on Ray's presentation it indeed is quite different from what is considered conventional wisdom. Maybe somewhere else in the transcript it addresses my thought here.

Many times in life I have made rash, emotional decisions motivated by my selfishness or lusts, at the point of action I was in a "damn the torpedoes" mode, "this is what I am doing and that is that!" When the time came to own up to the results of my actions my initial response would usually include some attempt at justification or in finding a scapegoat.

Although Adam made a rash emotional decision to be with Eve and "damn the torpedoes" when he was approached by God he seemed to waver a bit and say "the woman thou gavest me" with Eve standing right there, and then Eve blames the serpent, it sounds exactly like what happens when 2 (or more) people commit a crime they are "all for one and one for all" until the cops show up, then the finger pointing and blame game begins.


Gen 3:13  And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

I certainly see and agree to what you posted in regard to how Adam was thinking and feeling before he was explaining himself to God, but when he was actually in God's presence he did not say, God I love this woman so much that I will die for her right here and now if need be, it looks more like he was saying, hey God this was all a big mistake, this woman here, you know the one that you gave me, well I did not want her to be alone or die by herself because I was not sure what you were going to do so I went ahead and ate of it just to be sure she would not have to suffer and be alone, because you know I really love her.

I am looking forward to reading the rest of the transcript, thank you Sister.

His peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe  

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Joe, Long time no see.

You were missed my brother   But it is so good to have you back.

I used to always think as Adam as being a wimp for "hiding" behind Eve, blaming something he did on her.

But then Adam was the first Adam and he was not compelled to stand-iup for Eve, even to the point of death.

However, Christ was the "last" Adam

1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

And he, Christ, willingly paid the ultimate price for his "bride" his chruch.

Eph 5:25  Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Yes it is comforting knowing that all is happening according to the will of Our Father.

Great post!

Your Brother,
Darren

Dear Darren,

Thank you for the welcome back! 

I was at the Builder's Show in Orlando for the better part of a week early in February then a few days later we went up to North Carolina for an extended weekend, it has been pretty busy at work always catching up when I am away for any period of time.

Take care Brother.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe   

[Kat]

Hi Joe,

Yes I see your point.

Although Adam made a rash emotional decision to be with Eve and "damn the torpedoes" when he was approached by God he seemed to waver a bit and say "the woman thou gavest me" with Eve standing right there, and then Eve blames the serpent, it sounds exactly like what happens when 2 (or more) people commit a crime they are "all for one and one for all" until the cops show up, then the finger pointing and blame game begins.

That sound like just what happened, now that you explained it  

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[hillsbororiver]

I just had another thought and can use some help seeing its significance (if indeed there is any). Has anyone ever thought about the fact that the only two people who were not formed in the womb of their Mother were the only two people who saw and experienced the garden of Eden?

All their needs were addressed in Eden, food, stable temperature and climate therefore no need for clothes, no need to be fearful or even aware of potential dangers, no knowledge of the hostile potential of the world.

Is that not what a baby in it's Mother's womb experiencing? Food, shelter and comfort is provided as they are blissfully ignorant until the day they get that fateful slap on the rear.

Like I said I do not know what if any significance there is but the thought crossed my mind and I was wondering if it had with anyone else.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[Patrick]

Although Adam made a rash emotional decision to be with Eve and "damn the torpedoes" when he was approached by God he seemed to waver a bit and say "the woman thou gavest me" with Eve standing right there, and then Eve blames the serpent, it sounds exactly like what happens when 2 (or more) people commit a crime they are "all for one and one for all" until the cops show up, then the finger pointing and blame game begins.

In Adam and Eve's case, "The Man" showed up!

Gen 3:8  And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: (OH NO, we are busted) and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
Gen 3:9  And the LORD God called unto the man, and said unto him, Where art thou? (come out with your hands in the air [and we know God knew where they were])


I'm not so sure "Conventional Christiandom" believes the Lord has any power in saving mankind. I wish I had a nickle for everytime someone has said, "well, it's certainly His desire to save mankind, BUT, free will.....".

Joe, I have never thought about that. I'm sure there is a significance in there somewhere. My mom told me I was screaming as I was being delivered; don't know for sure if that's really the case or if that's even possible.



 
 

[chav]

Hisbororiver states

All their needs were addressed in Eden, food, stable temperature and climate therefore no need for clothes, no need to be fearful or even aware of potential dangers, no knowledge of the hostile potential of the world.


I'm not so sure that their world was that free of hostility. Didn't God tell them to subdue the world before they sinned, what did they have to overcome ?

Dave UK

[Deborah-Leigh]

Joe
Is that not what a baby in it's Mother's womb experiencing? Food, shelter and comfort is provided as they are blissfully ignorant until the day they get that fateful slap on the rear.

That is an interesting thought you posted!

Patrick I looked up "man" on e-sword and found out it refers to "mankind". So i deduce from this that, after Adam and Eve ate of the tree they were transformed into humans because it appears that it was after this event, that the word MAN appears in the text.

Also Joe, I recall that Adam was ecstatic when God brought Eve to him. He said “At Last!....”  his reminding God that God had given Eve to him, for me meant he was loyal to the gift he received from God and gave his life due to that love for her and absence of his desire to ever have to be separated from her or be alone again without her. God had observed that it was not good for Adam to be alone.

I think Adam was quite a man actually.  Like Christ, he laid down his life for his bride. Adam took the bite out of that fruit just like Jesus took the bite of death on His cross at Calvary for his Bride too. Of course Adam sinned and Jesus was sinless and that is the enormous difference. Jesus did the will of God and Adam did not but God knew he wouldn’t anyway! That was all in the plan of God!

One small point. Why does the scripture say that God  drove out the man…and not the woman?....only kidding!....both were human and both had to leave the Garden of Eden. Has something of this garden remained in the souls of women who are recognised for having intuition and poor logic skills?.....Who knows? God does!....

Peace to you

Arcturus

[hillsbororiver]

Hisbororiver states

All their needs were addressed in Eden, food, stable temperature and climate therefore no need for clothes, no need to be fearful or even aware of potential dangers, no knowledge of the hostile potential of the world.


I'm not so sure that their world was that free of hostility. Didn't God tell them to subdue the world before they sinned, what did they have to overcome ?

Dave UK

Hi Dave,

Interesting question, I don't see where it is clear they had to overcome anything, just maintain the control they were given to begin with and not screw up what was put in place, again I am not trying to give some great revelation I am only seeing that the ones who never experienced the womb were the only ones who experienced the bliss of Eden, and that bliss appears to be the bliss of ignorance, unaware of the knowledge of good and evil. Not having that knowledge would actually keep us as the beasts of the world are. My dog or cat (or any creature in the wild) has no conception of good and evil they only want to keep warm, dry, a full belly and maybe a pat on the head (at least in the case of domesticated animals). The following translations give a slightly different perspective than the King James,

Genesis 1:28 (Amplified Bible)
   
28And God blessed them and said to them, Be fruitful, multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it [using all its vast resources in the service of God and man]; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and over every living creature that moves upon the earth.
 
Genesis 1:28 (New Living Translation)

28 Then God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and multiply. Fill the earth and govern it. Reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, and all the animals that scurry along the ground.”

The above seems to imply that life for Adam and Eve in Eden was a walk in the park compared to the hike in the wilderness up the mountain in the storm and blizzard it was to become after the "fall."

Quoting from the King James;

Genesis 3 (King James Version)

17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Genesis 3 (Amplified Bible)

17And to Adam He said, Because you have listened and given heed to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it, the ground is under a curse because of you; in sorrow and toil shall you eat [of the fruits] of it all the days of your life.

18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth for you, and you shall eat the plants of the field.

19In the sweat of your face shall you eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you shall return

Genesis 3 (New Living Translation)

17 And to the man he said, “Since you listened to your wife and ate from the tree whose fruit I commanded you not to eat, the ground is cursed because of you. All your life you will struggle to scratch a living from it.

18 It will grow thorns and thistles for you, though you will eat of its grains.
     
19 By the sweat of your brow will you have food to eat until you return to the ground from which you were made.For you were made from dust,
      and to dust you will return.”

Are there any challenges or hostilities mentioned in Genesis prior to eating the fruit?

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
   
     
   

[YellowStone]

Arcturus wrote:

I think Adam was quite a man actually.  Like Christ, he laid down his life for his bride. Adam too the bite out of that fruit just like Jesus took the bite of death on His cross at Calvary for his Bride too. Of course Adam sinned and Jesus was sinless and that is the enormous difference. Jesus did the will of God and Adam did not but God knew he wouldn’t anyway! That was all in the plan of God!
Actually, Adam was anything but like Christ whom willingly laid his life down for his bride. Adam; however, did no such thing:)

The Scriptures explain what happened in the garden quite clearly. Many incorrectly assume that the Satan tempted Eve on her own, but this is no the case. Adam was with her and heard every untrue word that was spoken.

Gen 3:4  And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Gen 3:5  For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Once again, these are only words; Eve could have ignored them off as could of Adam. For that manner Adam could have subdued the snake just as they were told to do.

Gen 1:28  And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it:

Why did Adam not protect his wife from this liar and banish the snake? Because Adam was eating it all up just as much if not more so than Eve.

How do we know this, because he was with her.

Gen 3:6  And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Seems to me, Adam was NOT prepared to die for his wife, for his focus was becoming "As Gods" For he clearly heard the serpent say:

Gen 3:5  For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Notice the plural "as Gods" the serpent was talking to more than one person.

Adam took it, hook line an sinker, just as God knew he and Eve would. I'm surprised that he even let Eve take the first bite, in his rush to become more than he was, to be God like. We must assume this, because he did not resist the sepernt.

Adam was not a righteous man, nor was he prepared to take responsibility for his actions. Rather, Adam was a coward. He did not stand in front of his wife and accept responsibility for not subduing the serpent. Neither did he say: "Lord, punish me, for it is I who should have protected Eve; I committed the greatest sin, so please with all mercy, spare the one you gave to me, for she knew not what she was doing"

Adam said no such thing; rather, he wanted nothing more than to fool God and place the blame onto Eve. Eve, the one person that he loved as himself. NOT. He loved her so much that he was willing to let he die, if he could somehow escape.

Is it any wonder a lot of women do not trust their men? I mean this quite sincerely.

Arcturus, Adam did not as you say "took the bite out of that fruit just like Jesus took the bite of death." Even if he had, it would have been for selfish reasons; more so out of his fear of being alone than his love for God. Rather Adam, gladly and willingly took a bite of the piece of fruit along with the promise that he would be greater than he was. Christ however, died so that all the little Adams and Eves ever after (that is "us") could have one day, what Adam and Eve had in the beginning.  

Please show me one or two Scriptures that give witness to fact that Adam did indeed "lay down his life for his bride"

For I have provided several (as did others) that give wittness that he did not.

Please do not take offense, as this is written with Love my dear sister,

Your brother in Christ,
Darren

[YellowStone]

Are there any challenges or hostilities mentioned in Genesis prior to eating the fruit?

   
 

I believe so Joe,

Gen 1:27 

• So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Gen 1:28 

• And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

The Hebrew word used for Subdue is: "kabash (Strong's 03533)" and means:

  1) to subject, subdue, force, keep under, bring into bondage
      a) (Qal)
          1) to bring into bondage, make subservient
          2) to subdue, force, violate
          3) to subdue, dominate, tread down
      b) (Niphal) to be subdued
      c) (Piel) to subdue
      d) (Hiphil) to bring into bondage

I hope this helps Joe,

With love from a fellow brother,
Darren

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Darren,

Look at the other translations I presented, we know in some instances Strong's incorporates the conventional definitions of the original Hebrew and Greek as they have been influenced by more modern doctrines.

If we subdue or bring into submission our children or even kittens or puppies does that really mean we are out there with a sword and shield fighting to the death? Or could it mean that we are to be consistant with good advice, examples and principles?

Are there other ways to lead and set priorities other than overcoming a hostile adversary? I believe there is, Adam was told to bring the earth to "submission" what does that really mean, that the garden of Eden was a jungle and wild beasts that were attacking from every direction? Or could it mean that by setting an example of submission to God's will that we (all of creation) would reap the benefits and rewards?

I had asked if there were any scriptural witnesses that Adam and Eve had to fend off adversity before eating from the tree of knowledge, can anyone present those scriptures?

I do not see any adversities until after the "fall" of our earthly parents.

Peace Brother,

Joe

[Deborah-Leigh]

Darren you ask me  : Please show me one or two Scriptures that give witness to fact that Adam did indeed "lay down his life for his bride"

Here is what you need..................................

WHAT CAUSED ADAM TO SIN WILLINGLY?

How about Adam? Does he fair any better than his wife? Did Adam eat the forbidden fruit and sin by his OWN ‘FREE’ WILL? Or do the Scriptures tell us that he too was CAUSED to have his will do what he did?

"And the man said, THE WOMAN whom You gave to be with me, SHE GAVE ME OF THE TREE, and I did eat" (Ver. 12).

And again, did God say something like" "Oh sure, Adam, blame it on your WIFE! You know that you ‘freely’ without any outside cause whatsoever, decided on your own to eat the fruit." Is that what God intonated to Adam? Let’s read it:

"And unto Adam He said, Because [‘because’—here is the real CAUSE] YOU HAVE HEARKENED UNTO THE VOICE OF YOUR WIFE, and have eaten of the tree …" (Ver. 17).

Does anyone see here where God says, "Because you have hearkened unto the voice of our OWN ‘FREE’ WILL, and have eaten of the true…?" Well? No, before Adam "willed" (and NOT FREELY), but willed to eat of this fruit, his heart was influenced to do something that it already had all the potential in the world of doing. Namely, disobeying His God and Maker. And what was that? HIS WIFE’S VOICE. And at THAT point in the process, Adam began to "will" this act, and his mind formulated the actual physical action of doing the eating.

You see, Adam was willing to die for his new bride, just as Jesus was willing to die for His bride, the church.

God doesn’t even hint that Adam did what he did "freely." God Himself admits that the CAUSE was "the VOICE OF YOUR WIFE."

I have said and taught for decades now that God never FORCED anyone to sin or go against whatever their will is at the precise time that his will is changed by a cause. Men volunteer to sin. They don’t need to be "forced"—they are SINNING MACHINES! Most men (not all) can be made to sin at the drop of a photograph. (That is, if the photograph is that of a sexy young lady in high heels and a mini-skirt). He doesn’t need to be ‘FORCED’ to lust and sin over the young lady, even though it may not have been his conscious will TO LUST just prior to seeing the sexy photograph.

Who created man with such passions and desires? Dah! Who created Testosterone

From LOF Part 15