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The supposed "secret" rapture...
skydreamers:
Hi All, I have a brother who insists that there is a "secret rapture". I'm trying to study this out because I admit I don't know much about it. I know there are a lot of differing views and it's confusing. I haven't seen any convincing scripture to "prove" there is such a thing as a "secret rapture". I've read Ray's paper which I think is really good and explains a lot. However, I still have a question which may have a simple answer to it.
Why are the saints referred to as coming WITH Jesus at the second coming in these texts:
1 Thessalonians 3:13 NKJV
13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ WITH all His saints.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 NKJV
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring WITH Him those who sleep in Jesus.
Jude 1:14-15 NKJV
14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes WITH ten thousands of His saints,
15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
My brother insists that these are the saints who were previously "raptured" before the great tribulation, and are now arriving with Jesus at the second coming. I know there has got to be an explanation for this. Has anyone else wondered about these texts? How would you explain these?
Thanks and peace to all,
Diana
Alan:
Diana,
The second verse you quote answers the first.
The saints are God's elect and they will be resurrected when Christ returns.
Most of Orthodox church believes that there will be a physical resurrection
and all of these fleshy dead bodies with come up out of the ground and meet
Him in the air.
Those who sleep in Jesus are given new spiritual bodies. The dead shall rise first, then
those those who are alive.
The last verse you quote in Jude is talking about judgment. This is the great white throne
judgment.....the second resurrection. These ten thousands are the elect who will judge the unrighteous.
The elect (saints) are the Lake of Fire.
Hope this helps!
Alan
Deborah-Leigh:
Hello Alan
You observed : Most of Orthodox church believes that there will be a physical resurrection
and all of these fleshy dead bodies with come up out of the ground and meet
Him in the air.
That is so true because the Church translates spiritual into literal or carnal interpretation. Jesus said : The words I speak are spirit! 8)
You say : The elect (saints) are the Lake of Fire.
I believe that some of Ray's e-mail detractors are getting a feel for judgment now. Can you imagine tens of thousands of Ray Smiths? ;D ;D ;D
God Bless him! 8)
I enjoyed how you put together you response so neatly and effectively.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
rick:
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Many preachers will use this passage in Matthew to prove their secret rapture theory but a little common sense will show us how deceptive they can be. if the return of Jesus will be as it was in the days of Noah, my question is this. who was taken and who was left? were not the ungodly the ones taken away in death? and the grace of God left Noah and his family to repopulate the earth. if we look at the same account in Luke, I think it only confirms this......
Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luk 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
the disciples plainly ask Jesus where these people are taken and his reply? where ever the body (carcass) is,there the eagles (vultures) will be gathered. the rapture theory is bogus and the world of chritendom is waiting on a lie
dogcombat:
Diana,
Ray has covered this subject on the homepage
http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm
Ches
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