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[mrsnacks]

I heard Ray say this. THe Bible is a parable to us.

I know that the scriptures tell us that the natural man cannot understand the spiritual things unless they have the spirit of God in them. So what is hidden ?

I know that the average Joe on the street can come with an explanation of the meaning behind  the stories of the Bible and the lessons God is actually teaching. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out much less a christian.  But I thinking it has to be deeper than that. For example many will read Genesis and all agree that this is the story of creation of  the universe and God creating man and the fall etc. BUt it is deeper than that. That is what is taught in church and it seems very surface to me. If it is a parable than what is the meaning? What is God saying ?  Thanks

[rick]

the first shall be last and the last shall be first!!!!!! and I believe that is what the whole of scriptures teach us.....rick

[Kat]

Hi mrsnacks,

This email of Ray's address your question.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2891.0.html -------------

Hi ray,

Thanks for the encouragement.. can you tell me what you mean when you say all of the scriptures are a parable?

Thanks,
Dave


Dear Dave:

Well, not really, not in less than a hour or so, but I'll give you a hint. God is the Creator. He made everything. He made everthing for a purpose. There is one grand goal that God has for the entire human race. The Christian Church has not a CLUE as to what that goal is or how it will be accomplish. The whole plan and purpose is outlined in the Scriptures. But just as NONE of the people who heard Jesus teach in parables, understood His parables, so the Whole Bible is one GIANT parable which the Church does not understand. In a nutshell:  God is creating the human race into HIS VERY OWN SPIRITUAL IMAGE.  Oh, I thought that already was accomplished back in the Garden, wasn't it?  I told you it's all one GIANT PARABLE!

God be with you,

Ray
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you go to 'Introductions and Announcements and more of Ray's Teachings.'
Then go to 'Forum indexes and info.'
Then you can go to 'Categorized llist of Ray's email.'
And there you will see a long list of Ray's emails and there is one category on 'Parables,'
this has a lot of different emails you can read whenever you so desire.
Here's a quick link,
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3108.0.html

Hope this helps 

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[YellowStone]

Kathy my dear sister,

I must be slow or something, and perhaps this should be directed to Ray himself; but.....

When Ray says: "so the Whole Bible is a GIANT parable" What exactly is he meaning?

The Hebrew word for Parable is mashal {maw-shawl'} [4912] and is given the meaning of

1) proverb, parable
    a) proverb, proverbial saying, aphorism
    b) byword
    c) similitude, parable
    d) poem
    e) sentences of ethical wisdom, ethical maxims


The Greek word for the same is parabole {par-ab-ol-ay'} [3850]

1) a placing of one thing by the side of another, juxtaposition, as of ships in battle
2) metaph.
    a) a comparing, comparison of one thing with another, likeness, similitude
    b) an example by which a doctrine or precept is illustrated
    c) a narrative, fictitious but agreeable to the laws and usages of human life,
        by which either the duties of men or the things of God, particularly the
        nature and history of God's kingdom are figuratively portrayed
    d) a parable: an earthly story with a heavenly meaning
3) a pithy and instructive saying, involving some likeness or comparison and having preceptive or admonitory force
    a) an aphorism, a maxim
4) a proverb
5) an act by which one exposes himself or his possessions to danger, a venture, a risk

From this I can understand how Christ spoke / talked.

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

However; if one is to take Ray's words verbatim, then the story of Christ himself, must also be a parable. As in not real, but rather an aphorism, or a maxim.

The  Compact Oxford English Dictionary does not distance itself from the above renderings.

Parable

  • noun a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson.

  — ORIGIN Latin parabola ‘comparison, discourse, allegory’, from Greek parabole (see PARABOLA).
 
Surely no one here believes that the story of Christ or for that matter the ancient patriarchs are nothing more than stories used to illustrate a spiritual lesson?

Please help, for quite frankly, I am lost and confused.

Your brother in Christ,

Darren


Oh, found this after a little research only to dig my hole deeper

Ray writes: http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2834.0.html

A parable is a physical story which points to a SPIRITUAL TRUTH.  As God creates "A NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH," just what is there about this present heaven and earth that will "LITERALLY" last eternally?  Besides I did not say that "The Bible is One Giant FICTION," now did I?  No, I said that the Bible is one giant PARABLE.  And the contents of a parable (not the Bible, but a PARABLE, are fictitious. ALL of the "literal" history, etc., in the Bible is NOT THE REAL THING. It is merely the ways and means TO THE REAL THING, which is Spiritual. "First that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is SPIRITUAL" (I Cor. 15:46).

Does "ALL of the "literal" history, etc., in the Bible is NOT THE REAL THING." mean that the literal history of David; his lineage to Christ and then the twelve apostles including Paul, just fictious?   


This has turned into a very dark day

Perhaps I am a fictious brother.

Darren

[Jackie Lee]

I don't understand the first shall be last and the last be first.
 I know it sounds self explainatory but could you explain? Thanks

[gmik]

Darren here is the way I took it.   NOT THE REAL THING being what is important spiritually.  Not the real thing that God wants us to learn.  Yes they were all living people doing their thing, but they were to show us THE REAL SPIRITUAL THING that God has intended all along.

I do this all day in my classroom and parents show children this.  We give them lessons or examples to show something else.  What we use as examples are real but we want them to learn the "higher" lesson.

[PKnowler]

Darren,

   I believe the Bible is a parable because the natural parallels spiritual truths. That doesn't make the natural not real. All that you see, the order of things, nature, Bible History, etc, are all pointing to something much higher in the spiritual realm. It's like an allegory. Like how a natural marriage relationship represents our relationship with Christ as His bride. Etc.,

That's my short answer. Here are some scriptures that came to mind.

2 Cor 4:18
    So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

Romans 1:20
    For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Col 2:17
    These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Heb 8:5
    They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain."

Heb 10:1
    The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

1 Corinthians 15:45
So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

[DWIGHT]

Darren,

Have you ever heard Ray say....the bible never means what it says.....but it means what it means!  Example:  If thine eye offend thee pluck it out.  It says that, but it doesn't mean that.  It means something spiritually deeper.  The stories of David and such are literal stories, but they all have spiritual meanings, so what they say is not what they mean.  We cannot see spirit with flesh and blood; we can only see spirit with spirit.  That's why flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.  That's why Christianity cannot see because they read the scriptures with their carnal (flesh and blood) eyes.

Your brother,

Dwight 

[YellowStone]

Thanks Gena, Paula and Dwight,

I hear your words and understand them, but my question still remains unanswered:

Was Christ a real person, were his miracles real. Did Peter really try to walk on water?

Or is all of this just a story?

I pray to my Father that it is not. For I know that Christ taught in parables, meaning that the stories simulated a deeper, spiritual meaning that was hidden to those he was speaking.

But I DO NOT KNOW, nor has God given me eyes to see that Moses, Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon, Joseph, Christ, James, Peter, John and Paul are fictious ie, not real.

Ray writes: http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2834.0.html

A parable is a physical story which points to a SPIRITUAL TRUTH.  As God creates "A NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH," just what is there about this present heaven and earth that will "LITERALLY" last eternally?  Besides I did not say that "The Bible is One Giant FICTION," now did I?  No, I said that the Bible is one giant PARABLE.  And the contents of a parable (not the Bible, but a PARABLE, are fictitious. ALL of the "literal" history, etc., in the Bible is NOT THE REAL THING. It is merely the ways and means TO THE REAL THING, which is Spiritual. "First that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is SPIRITUAL" (I Cor. 15:46).

Either Jesus was born, walked the Earth, died; was ressurected on the third day and then ascended to his Father or he did not.

Brothers and Sisters, either: "ALL of the "literal" history, etc., in the Bible is NOT THE REAL THING." is either Correct or it is Not.

Please, please let me know if you do not understand my question, I will try to make it clearer.

A lost brother,
Darren

[YellowStone]

Darren,

Have you ever heard Ray say....the bible never means what it says.....but it means what it means!  Example:  If thine eye offend thee pluck it out.  It says that, but it doesn't mean that.  It means something spiritually deeper.  The stories of David and such are literal stories, but they all have spiritual meanings, so what they say is not what they mean.  We cannot see spirit with flesh and blood; we can only see spirit with spirit.  That's why flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.  That's why Christianity cannot see because they read the scriptures with their carnal (flesh and blood) eyes.

Your brother,

Dwight 

Dwight, I fully understand the difference between the words Jesus used and his intent. But I do not understand your use of the word stories in the above bolded text.

Let me explain (try) We all realize that the Scriptures for the most part were penned many years after the actual event. That Moses is credited (I believe) for the Genesis Account. However, when you say "The stories of David and such are literal stories" do you rather mean (for the most part, allowing for any discrepancies between the various scribes over the eons) "The stories of David and such are stories of literal events"

If this is what you meant, then one can assume that David was the "literal" son of Jacob, as well as the "literal" father of Solomon.

Help me out here please brother,

Darren

[YellowStone]

Perhaps a light just went on..........

I will ask here, because I think this has been a good discussion.

I think I have found the single word that has been my stumbling block.

Ray writes: http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2834.0.html

A parable is a physical story which points to a SPIRITUAL TRUTH.  As God creates "A NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH," just what is there about this present heaven and earth that will "LITERALLY" last eternally?  Besides I did not say that "The Bible is One Giant FICTION," now did I?  No, I said that the Bible is one giant PARABLE.  And the contents of a parable (not the Bible, but a PARABLE, are fictitious. ALL of the "literal" history, etc., in the Bible is NOT THE REAL THING. It is merely the ways and means TO THE REAL THING, which is Spiritual. "First that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is SPIRITUAL" (I Cor. 15:46).

Perhaps Ray is saying: ALL of the "literal" history, etc., in the Bible is NOT THE REAL Message?

This then makes perfect sense and Paula's words equate to what I have long held to be true

I believe the Bible is a parable because the natural parallels spiritual truths. That doesn't make the natural not real. All that you see, the order of things, nature, Bible History, etc, are all pointing to something much higher in the spiritual realm. It's like an allegory. Like how a natural marriage relationship represents our relationship with Christ as His bride. Etc.,

The world got crazy there for a while

Praying that "Message" is the key,

Darren

[PKnowler]

Thanks Gena, Paula and Dwight,

I hear your words and understand them, but my question still remains unanswered:

Was Christ a real person, were his miracles real. Did Peter really try to walk on water?

YES!

Or is all of this just a story?

NO, it really happened!

Hey Darren,

   I was just going to write you that God would have to give you revelation of this when I seen that you wrote that the light went on.
I'm so glad. It is a mystery and I don't know that any of us fully understand it. But I do believe that the natural points to the spiritual.
The natural is passing away but the spiritual remains. It is a very interesting subject and I can think of many examples.

Hmm I'm not really sure what Ray meant when he said: ALL of the "literal" history, etc., in the Bible is NOT THE REAL THING. It would be interesting to hear some feed back on that.

[YellowStone]

 
 
YAYYY!--- Thanks Paula

[PKnowler]

 

Hey Darren, I'm glad I could help. 


Thanks be to God who opens our blind eyes so we can see!

[DWIGHT]

Darren and Paula,

This is the wonderful thing about this forum and all the wonderful brothers and sisters.  When one of us is having difficulty, someone steps in and trys to help; and there is this marvelous link in the spirit that we all have together.  I tell you, everyday I am seeing this more and more here and I love what God is doing among us.  It's as if the Lord is opening our spiritual eyes all together as one body and there is no competition.   No my posts are more spiritual than your posts.  Every member is so important to us all that we cannot do without each other.....isn't this just like our precious Lord to work and to do of His good pleasure in us?  Lord thank you and praise your holy name!

Your brother,

Dwight

[Kat]

Hi Darren,

I have a bit more to add to this subject 
I noticed that you seemed to have difficulity with this statement.

ALL of the "literal" history, etc., in the Bible is NOT THE REAL THING. It is merely the ways and means TO THE REAL THING, which is Spiritual. "First that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is SPIRITUAL" (I Cor. 15:46).

The whole Bible is about real events and is the real history of the world since creation.  But what is meant by 'the Bible is NOT THE REAL THING.'  What I believe this is talking about is, we are physical and the world we live in is physical, but it is not 'the real thing,'  this is just the beginning.
The real thing is the spiritual kingdom.
Here is an email that I think will help with this.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2268.0.html ---------------

Dear Dale:
Beats me!  Maybe there was no Part 2?  I don't know. My memory does go back that far--that was over a year ago.  I can't really go into much detail on that in an email, but briefly I will say this.  When the Scriptures say that something is "like" something else, it means "similar, in some ways."  Not the "same as," as some people think the word "like" means, but "similar."  Not similar in all ways, but similar in "certain ways."  The word like is really pretty close to a metaphor.  A metaphor is when one thing is said to BE something else, as "the lake of fire IS the second death."  But it is not LITERALLY what it is said to be, but only "like something else, IN CERTAIN WAYS."

Are you now thoroughly confused?  I hope not.  And so the Kingdom of God is "like"............"leaven in three measures of meal."  It is NOT leaven in three measures of meal, but "SIMILARY, IN CERTAIN WAYS."  The Kingdom of God is LIKE, "a drag net full of all kinds of fishes."  It is NOT literal fishes, but "SIMILAR, in certain ways."  Some fish are good for food and some are not (that's about all fish are good for AT ALL, unless you have them for pets--but you can't pet a fish, like I can and do pet my cats all the time).  They are good for food or not good for food.  The Kingdom of God is LIKE THAT.  Some of those who Believe in and follow Jesus are GOOD FOR FOOD (spiritual food) for the nations of the world), but some are not--in fact, some are POISONOUS--like the unbelievably painful rock fish.

The Kingdom of God is "similar to, in certain ways," a plainted or plants grain............A man who takes account of his servants..................a man who builds a house................new wine in old wine skins..........the wheat and the tars.............the pearl of great priced..................the prodigal son and the older brother..........the lost sheep.....................the unforgiving servant.................the workers in the vineyard........the wise and foolish virgins..............the talents............the good samaritan..................the barren fig tree.............the great supper.........the lost coin............the Rich man and Lazarus........the Persistant Widow............the Pharisee and the tax collector, etc., etc., etc.  Are you seeing it?  The Kingdom of God is like "MANY ARE CALLED BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN"!  NOW are you getting it?  I hope so. I'll take it up in a future Conference (but you have got to come.......)!!
God be with you,
Ray
Does that help you at all?  Just carry this truth out in every parable concerning the Kngdom of God, and you will begin to understand what the Kingdom of God is really LIKE.  Isn't understanding the Scriptures really fund?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The physical is a type and shadow of the real thing which is yet to come, which is our being born into the spiritual kingdom. 
First we have the physical which is now for us, but the elect have begun ahead of the majority (as being begotten, a taste of what is to come), then comes the real thing when we enter the kingdom as spirit.
Here is excerpt from Ray's 'Tithing is Unscriptural Under the New Covenant,' this explains more about this.

http://www.bible-truths.com/tithing.html -----------------------------

THE TYPE AND SHADOW IS FAR INFERIOR TO THE REALITY

"Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, [truly, truly], I say unto you, Moses gave you NOT THAT BREAD FROM HEAVEN; but My Father gives you the TRUE BREAD from heaven. For the bread of God is HE which comes down from heaven and gives life unto the world" (John 6:32-33)!

What? How can Jesus say that?

The Jews said that their fathers ate "bread from heaven."

Moses said that, "He gave them bread from heaven to eat."

But Jesus said, "Moses gave you NOT that bread from heaven; but My Father gives you the TRUE bread from heaven.

Is Jesus contradicting the very Word of God? No, a thousand times No: He is fulfilling the words of the prophets just as He said in Matt. 5:17.

The bread in the desert was only the type of bread from heaven, which in reality, and in fulfillment, pointed to Jesus Christ, the "TRUE bread from heaven." The same is true for Malachi. The "polluted bread" of Malachi is but the type of the unpolluted, pure, "TRUE bread from heaven,’ which is Jesus Christ.
"I beseech [invitation, invocation, imploration, exhortation] you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice holy [not polluted], acceptable [not like in Malachi where God says, ‘neither will I accept an offering at your hand’], unto God, which is your reasonable service" (Rom. 12:1).

As it is our ‘bodies’ that house our mind, heart, and spirit, we will also cover those attributes which are necessary in order for our "living sacrifice" to be acceptable unto the Lord.

Seriously, dear readers, of what value are physical material offerings to God, if the ones making the offerings are themselves, "polluted bread?" Does God really desire physical things? God has already created BILLIONS OF GALAXIES full of "physical things." Billions of galaxies do not fulfill God’s desire for the love, obedience, and admiration of children. God wants children. God wants children—Sons and Daughters in His Own image.

FIRST THE PHYSICAL AND THEN THE SPIRITUAL

"Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is SPIRITUAL" (I Cor. 15:46).

Now then, was that bread that the fathers ate in the desert the "TRUE bread from heaven?" No, it clearly was not, Jesus said it was not! And so, can we not see, can we not believe, can we not understand, that Jesus Christ IS

"…the TRUE bread from heaven. For the bread of God IS HE which comes down FROM HEAVEN and gives life unto the world" (John 6:32b-33).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope this helps 

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[ciy]

I was once a student of the archaeology of the biblical findings.  This really excited me when they would find some physical evidence that would lend proof to some story in the bible like Jericho, the Exodus, etc.  Then it dawned on me through some teaching and pondering that the historical fact is actually meaningless to me.  As a matter of fact, the physical truths of the bible get in the way of the real truth.  When they made a finding it was like "AHA it really did happen in 1733 BC or something, and what I should actually be realizing is that it is happening now in me.  I am Adam.  I am Eve.  I am Cain.  I am Moses.  I am David, King Saul, Judas, Paul, etc.  Until I got that revelation the bible was dead, historical letter.  Now it is not even a book it has depth that passes my complete understanding but I love it and see new truths in it daily.  I can never stop reading it.  It is the spiritual meaning that actually has meaning.
God Bless
CIY

[Kat]

Hi ciy,

Very good point you made.

Now it is not even a book it has depth that passes my complete understanding but I love it and see new truths in it daily.  I can never stop reading it.  It is the spiritual meaning that actually has meaning.

That's what it's all about 

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[YellowStone]

Hi Darren,

I have a bit more to add to this subject 
I noticed that you seemed to have difficulity with this statement.

ALL of the "literal" history, etc., in the Bible is NOT THE REAL THING. It is merely the ways and means TO THE REAL THING, which is Spiritual. "First that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is SPIRITUAL" (I Cor. 15:46).

The whole Bible is about real events and is the real history of the world since creation.  But what is meant by 'the Bible is NOT THE REAL THING.'  What I believe this is talking about is, we are physical and the world we live in is physical, but it is not 'the real thing,'  this is just the beginning.
The real thing is the spiritual kingdom..................

I hear you Kathy, and I had worked this out by the time you posted this....But Thanks so much any how.

I believe Brother Ray could / should have used a better choice of words. The word "Thing" refers to an object, I got hung up on it. Perhaps a better word would have been "focus". We should not focus on the literal, but rather the spiritual.

Thanks Kathy,

Love,
Darren

[Redbird]

Hello Darren,

Cheer up ~ Jesus says;

St. John 16:33   These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace.  In the world ye shall have tribulation:  but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Peace to you,

Lisa