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[stego]

Hi all,
    I am wondering your thoughts on this passage:

"If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea', and it will obey you."  Luke 17:6

Do you guys believe that when Jesus said this that he meant it literally?  I think it's an awesome concept.  I love the idea that if i had enough faith, i could actually do such a thing!  I have heard though through this site that each time Jesus spoke to the multitudes, it was a parable, not to be taken literally.  But this isn't a parable right?  Thanks for your thoughts.

Sean

[Redbird]

Hi Sean,

It has been my experience that faith can move MOUNTAINS OF TROUBLE!  So, yes, I believe the Lord is again speaking in parables.

Peace, Lisa

[Kat]

Hi stego,

I liked what Redbird said 

But I think everything Jesus taught was in parables.
Here is an email from Ray on this topic.  All of Ray's answers have 'comment' in front of them.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1655.0.html -----------

Dear Ron:
I am just amazed at how many thousands of detractors have written me just as you have, and made one accusation after another; accusing me of this and that, but have no proof, and just carelessly read my material and suppose that they are restating something that I have said.  I will waste my time once more just to show you that you have not a clue as to what you are talking about.  I will COMMENT in your email:
 

    > With reference to your paper on Lazarus and the rich man:
    >
    > Matthew 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in
    > parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
    >
    > Ray, to use this verse to prove that Jesus never spoke anything to the
    > multitudes without using parables is just not the case. This notation was
    > made only in reference to this particular setting as He spoke to them on
    > the Sea shore.


COMMENT:  This was NOT the only setting where He taught only in Parables. In Matt. 15:10 Jesus spoke a parable to the "multitudes," and just like always, not even His disciples understood this parable (Verse 15). In Matt. 17:14 Jesus came to the multitude and spoke a parable about the mustard seed which neither they, nor the church today understands.  In Matt. 21:23 there came to Jesus the chief priests, elders of the people, and He again taught them in parables.  In verse 46 there congregated another multitude, and Jesus taught them only in parables (22:2-14). Etc., etc., etc.

   
    > There were many times when He spoke to the multitudes without using
    > parables:  Matt 13:54,


COMMENT:  Excuse me, but just where in Matt. 13:54 does it say that Jesus taught them by NOT using parables?


     >Mark chapter 7,


COMMENT:  From Mark 7:1-13 Jesus is talking with the Pharisees, NOT THE MULTITUDES.  In verse 14 He does call a multitude, "ALL the people," but how does He teach this multitude?  Once again, he gives them a parable that not only they,  but once again, even His Own disciples did not understand (Verse 24).


     >Matthew chapters 5, 6 & 7.

COMMENT:  "And seeing the multitude, He went up into A MOUNTAIN: and when He was set, HIS DISCIPLES came unto Him: and He opened His mouth, and TAUGHT THEM [His disciples, not the multitude that He left behind down the mountain] saying" (Matt. 5:1-2).  Where was the multitude? At the bottom of the mountain.  Where was Christ?  UP in the mountain.  Who came to Jesus, the multitude?  NO, His disciples.  Who did He teach, the multitude? NO, His disciples. (Besides, anyone would be hard put to show me anything in this so-called sermon on the mount that cannot be considered symbolic, figurative, and parabolic language).


    > Throughout
    > the four gospels He spoke and taught the people in the Synagogues without
    > using parables.


COMMENT:  Oh really?  Show me one place where it says such a thing?

   
    > In all the cases where Jesus used a parable, it was identified in
    > scripture as a parable.

COMMENT:  That is utter unscriptural nonsense!  Why even the prodigal son is NOT CALLED A PARABLE.  There are DOZENS of parables in the gospels which are not called "parables."  You just made that up.


    > The story of Lazarus and the rich man was not
    > identified in scripture as being a parable.
    > Your reference to the wording "this parable" referring to more than one
    > parable that follows falls short of reasoning for the following reason.
    > The word "taute" translated to "this" is singulair in nature and
    > describes only one parable.

COMMENT:  Once again, you have not a clue.  These five parts are ALL ONE PARABLE.  They are to be taken and understood as ONE, and that why Jesus called them "THIS parable:

[1]  "What MAN...."
[2]  "Either what WOMAN...."
[3]  "A CERTAIN MAN...."
[4]  "A CERTAIN RICH MAN...."
[5]  "A CERTAIN RICH MAN...."

You must be blind indeed to not see the absolutely singularity and continuity in "THIS parable...."  When you stand before the Judgment seat of Christ and He asks whether or not you could not see that this five-part teaching was all ONE PARABLE,  are you truthfully telling me that you will say: "Dah, ah, naw, I don't see anything that binds these all into one parable; one teaching."  Yah, right.

   
    > Your reference to the word "also" in Luke 16:1 means nothing. The word
    > "kai" which was translated to "also" could have been translated into
    > other words including "then" so it has no real value in making any point
    > whatsoever.

COMMENT:  Oh get over yourself already.  It just galls me when people act foolish like this.  The word "also" is from the Greek "kai" and it means according to Dr. Strong:  "a primary particle having a COPULATIVE ...and CUMULATIVE force; and also, even so, then too" etc.  And no it could not be translated "then." Show me a version that translates this verse "then?" Go ahead, show me?

   
    > Your reference to Jesus speaking about a "certain man" leads to the start
    > of a parable is not valid in my mind. According to Webster a certain man
    > or a certain person not named or described is still a real person, a
    > definite person.

COMMENT:  Wrong again, pale face.  "Certain" is translated from the Greek word "tis" and it means according to Dr. Strong: "An INDEFINITE pronoun; some or ANY PERSON or object; ANY MAN, ANY thing, ANY thing at all."  End of quote--CAPS are mine.  You see, Ron, when we have the word used in the Greek defined by HOW IT IS USED IN THE GREEK LANGUAGE, we don't need Webster's alternative definitions.
     
     > Ray, I barely started into this paper and found these references to be
     > stumbling blocks.

COMMENT:  You Ron, are having trouble because you are stumbling over your own shadow!

    God be with you,
    Ray

PS   Try reading my papers to LEARN, rather than to assume everything you were taught by Mystery Babylon the Great is all truth and nothing but the truth.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[YellowStone]

Hi all

This is an interesting discussion. Was Jesus teaching or stating fact.

I for one do not doubt for an instant that one could move a literal mountain and throw it into the sea.

Although this would seem like a mountainous task, it would be as "nothing" to the one who made it all; hence Christs reference to a mustard seed.

I think the comparison between a literal object (tiny mustard see)  and ones level of faith is fair.

Is there any here who feels that they have this level of faith? I certainly DO NOT!!!   

But I do believe that as we are created in God's image (potentially) nothing will be impossible, when one reaches spiritual maturity with God.

Just my thoughts,

Love,
Darren

[Kat]

Hi Darren,

I like the way you put that, it is all so true 

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[josh]

Sean,

If you don’t mind, I’d like to share a few thoughts…

You ask:

"I have heard though through this site that each time Jesus spoke to the multitudes, it was a parable, not to be taken literally.  But this isn't a parable right?"

The scriptures tell us that Jesus spoke to the “multitudes” or “ crowds” in parables…

Matthew 13:34
"All this Jesus said to the crowds in parables; indeed he said nothing to them without a parable."

Mark 4:33-34
With many such parables he spoke the word to them, as they were able to hear it;
He did not speak to them without a parable, but privately to his own disciples he explained everything.

But “privately to his own disciples he explained everything”… re-read Luke 17:1-10, who is Jesus talking to?

He’s talking to His disciples! So this is not a “parable” in the classical sense… but we cannot forget that ALL of Christ’s words are “SPIRIT.”

John 6:63
It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life

And the things of the “SPIRIT” can only be taught by the “SPIRIT.”  So in a sense to those who do not have the “SPIRIT” all of the words of Christ remain a parable that cannot be understood by human wisdom.

1 Cor. 2:11-14
For what person knows a man's thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God.
And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit.
The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

 Ok. Back to Luke 17… I believe it’s paramount in interpreting a scripture to look at the scriptures that surround it…

Here Jesus is teaching His disciples a truth… and to them it seems to be out of their capability to not only have the faith to believe what He is saying, but also to have the faith to actually live it and put it into action.

Luke 17:1-4
And he said to his disciples, "Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom they come!
It would be better for him if a millstone were hung round his neck and he were cast into the sea, than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin.
Take heed to yourselves; if your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him; and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, and says, `I repent,' you must forgive him."

The disciples have to be thinking… This guy is crazy! Surely it can’t be better to drown  to cause a child to sin? Or doesn’t it seem alittle against common sense to continue to forgive someone if they hurt you seven times in ONE DAY?

So they respond… knowing that they cannot do this….

Luke 17:5
The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!"

Then Jesus gives an odd response… a response that is often misunderstood and misquoted by today’s religious leaders as some emphatic declaration by Christ telling us if we, in our own power, can muster enough faith we can do anything… EVEN MOVE A MOUNTAIN!

Sure... moving trees or mountains by faith is an "awesome concept" but I would ask "What would be the purpose in doing it?"

And have we not forgotten that faith is a gift from God, not something that we can manufacture our self?

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God --
not because of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Now here is Christ’s response to His disciples request for an increase in faith…

Luke 17:6 (RSV)
Yet the Lord said, "If you have faith as a mustard kernel, you would say to this black mulberry,
 'Be uprooted and be planted in the sea,' and it would obey you.

Now, look at it in the Message translation…

“But the Master said, "You don't need more faith. There is no 'more' or 'less' in faith. If you have a bare kernel of faith, say the size of a poppy seed, you could say to this sycamore tree, 'Go jump in the lake,' and it would do it.”

This passage of scripture is not an emphatic declaration of man’s ability to be able to DO ANYTHING if he just has enough faith, but rather it is a reprimand from our Lord for believing in such an ideology.  The disciples believed that if He would grant them more faith THEN they would be able to do the things that He was requiring of them, but Jesus turns the tables on them…

Luke 17:7-10
"Will any one of you, who has a servant plowing or keeping sheep, say to him when he has come in from the field, `Come at once and sit down at table'?
Will he not rather say to him, `Prepare supper for me, and gird yourself and serve me, till I eat and drink; and afterward you shall eat and drink'?
Does he thank the servant because he did what was commanded?
So you also, when you have done all that is commanded you, say, `We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.'"

Have we forgotten that we are SERVANTS of God…

Even Paul, writer of a good majority of the New Testament proclaims that He is a SERVANT of Jesus Christ…

Romans 1:1
Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God

It’s important to remember who we are in comparison or in light of our creator in the grand scheme of things… many of today’s “Christians” are caught up on scriptures like Luke 17:6… because they are manipulated into believing that God is going to give them some sort of super powers to do and to have whatever they want…

The 15th chapter of John gives us some insight into this philosophy…

John 15:7-8
If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you. By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be my disciples.

What are the requirements for asking “whatever you will and it shall be done for you?” or saying to a mulberry tree “be uprooted and be planted in the sea!” and it actually obeying you?

First, we must ABIDE IN HIM, Jesus Christ the Word of God…

And then His WORDS WILL ABIDE IN  YOU…

And then, and only then can you “ask whatever you will and it shall be done for you,” because then your desires and your heart are inline with the desires and the heart of God, and you will no longer ask for selfish things, but you will ask for things that coincide with the will, the purpose and the plan of God.

Looking at Luke 17:7-10 again… are we expecting thanks or reward for simply doing the things that are required of us? Do we believe God will increase our faith so that we can do the simple things that He requires of us?

Or will we be faithful and say “We are unworthy servants, we have only done what was our duty.”

It is our duty to FORGIVE, (not to move mountains) let us look at Christ for the model of who we are suppose to be like and act, by the sovereign choice of God who works all things after the counsel of His own will, to do the things that are our DUTY as His SERVANTS.

Hope this helps.

Josh

[YellowStone]

Josh, what a wonderful Post. I know that you have worded the thoughts of my heart, even though they may not have transgressed in my post.

You said:

It is our duty to FORGIVE, (not to move mountains) let us look at Christ for the model of who we are suppose to be like and the act, by the sovereign choice of God who works all things after the counsel of His own will, to do the things that are our DUTY as His SERVANTS.

This has been on my mind a lot. For even if we "could" move mountains, would we; the answer has to be a resounding "no!" For who, having garnered such Faith through our Father, would seek to destroy what he so lovingly created?

You also wrote:

John 15:7-8
If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you. By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be my disciples.

What are the requirements for asking “whatever you will and it shall be done for you?” or saying to a mulberry tree “be uprooted and be planted in the sea!” and it actually obeying you?

First, we must ABIDE IN HIM, Jesus Christ the Word of God…

And then His WORDS WILL ABIDE IN  YOU

The word Abide is the key here. To Abide or meno {men'-o} [3306] means to Keep the Faith.

1) to remain, abide
    a) in reference to place
       1) to sojourn, tarry
       2) not to depart
           a) to continue to be present
           b) to be held, kept, continually
    b) in reference to time
        1) to continue to be, not to perish, to last, endure
            a) of persons, to survive, live
    c) in reference to state or condition
        1) to remain as one, not to become another or different
        2) to wait for, await one

We remain faithful because it is our duty to do so, for as Paul said and correctly used: He was a servant of Christ, as are we also. (Romans 1:1)

Great Post Josh, thank you so much for sharing your God given insight.

Your Brother in Christ,
Darren

[Deborah-Leigh]

Josh

One addition :  

Galations 2 : 20 ....the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith OF (not my faith however big grand or holier-than-thou, but by HIS FAITH which also happens to be a fruit of HIS Spirit! love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, patience, FAITHFULNESS, gentleness and long-suffering!) the Son of God who loved me, and gave Himself for me.


Wouldn't the carnal mind just delight itself in  having such power to parade its pride on world stages set to impress sick and hurting people. By contrast Jesus used His power for others and not for Himself. As you say He served! His crucifixion impressed no one at the time! It brought grief and pain and sorrow and His resurrection brought hope and joy and liberation.

He will come in Glory and rule with a rod of iron and then we will see some mountains of deception melt at the breath of His presence in the fire of His righteousness and the authority of His Sovereignty! Until then the mountains are not going to be moving anywhere soon...they will be growing and the shadow they cast will be getting darker and colder on the world.

I am glad to be in the sunshine of His love and able to see where it is shining. I enjoyed the scriptural exhortation, edification and encouragement that your post brought to me. Thank you.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[rrammfcitktturjsp]

To those who posted in this thread,

  Good stuff this thread is.  Everything I was going to say has been said here.  Well, I have learned a lot reading this thread, but I am gladdened and encouraged that I am learning these truths and am becoming one with God and His Truth. Yeah.

  Sincerely,




  Anne C. McGuire

[DWIGHT]

Josh,

Thank you brother, that was well said.  It's just like us to think that God wants us to move mountains or trees with our faith.  What faith?  Like Arcturus said, we have no faith of our own, its His faith that we live by.  It seems harder to move the heart of man than to move a mountain to the sea.

In Him,

Dwight

[Kirk]

Would somebody please give me a one sentence definition, in their own words, of
Biblical faith?  Thanks.

[hillsbororiver]

Lam 5:18  Because of the mountain of Zion, which is desolate, the foxes walk upon it.

I don't believe Jesus was speaking of literally tossing literal mountains around, but He was speaking of those (elect) who would (through His Spirit) move the mountains of iniquity or of false gods of selfishness, lusts, spiritual fornication.

Eph 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Also, mountains are prominant as He reveals Himself, His Truths, His Love and His Promises.

Luk 9:28  And it came to pass about eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.

Joh 6:3  And1161 Jesus went up into a mountain, and there he sat with his disciples.

Mountains in scripture appear to represent the very heights of either goodness, our Lord's ultimate Truths or extreme carnality and iniquity as when Satan took Jesus to the top of a mountain to tempt Him.

Do an e-sword search on mountain, or mountains and I think you will see what I am saying.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

P.S.Dan 2:45  Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

[hillsbororiver]

Would somebody please give me a one sentence definition, in their own words, of
Biblical faith?  Thanks.

Faith is the seed which germinates into our knowledge and understanding of God and His plan and purpose for His children.

[Kat]

Hi Kirk,

I would say faith is assurance or belief in God and total dependence on Him for our salvation.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

I have seen that Ray has either said or written somewhere......faith is belief and belief is faith.

John 6 : 28,29 Then said they unto Him, what shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work, service that God asks of you: that you  BELIEVE in the One Whom He has sent, that you cleave to, trust, rely on, and have FAITH in His Messenger.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[stego]

Thanks for the replies everybody.  I understand that verse much better than i did before now.  Still, I'd like to believe that in God's great universe, anything is possible (including moving mountains) through faith in God.

[hillsbororiver]

Lam 5:18  Because of the mountain of Zion, which is desolate, the foxes walk upon it.

I don't believe Jesus was speaking of literally tossing literal mountains around, but He was speaking of those (elect) who would (through His Spirit) move the mountains of iniquity or of false gods of selfishness, lusts, spiritual fornication.

Eph 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Also, mountains are prominant as He reveals Himself, His Truths, His Love and His Promises.

Luk 9:28  And it came to pass about eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.

Joh 6:3  And1161 Jesus went up into a mountain, and there he sat with his disciples.

Mountains in scripture appear to represent the very heights of either goodness, our Lord's ultimate Truths or extreme carnality and iniquity as when Satan took Jesus to the top of a mountain to tempt Him.

Do an e-sword search on mountain, or mountains and I think you will see what I am saying.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

P.S.Dan 2:45  Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Eze 36:1  Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD:
 
Eze 36:2  Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because the enemy hath said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession:
 
Eze 36:3  Therefore prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that ye might be a possession unto the residue of the heathen, and ye are taken up in the lips of talkers, and are an infamy of the people:
 
Eze 36:4  Therefore, ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, to the desolate wastes, and to the cities that are forsaken, which became a prey and derision to the residue of the heathen that are round about;

[Beloved]

This might sound simplistic but

Faith is not the same is belief.  Belief is the mental ascent of man.

They used believe because English lack the proper word.......
 it should have been translated FAITHING not believe.


Faith is the ‘Ability” to die to self.  WE can’t do that...that is why it is a Gift from God.
 
Faith is  the Ability to Totally Depend on HIM. ] 

The more you die to self the more faith you have.


Beloved