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Author Topic: The Progression to Charity  (Read 4717 times)

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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
The Progression to Charity
« on: March 11, 2007, 03:04:36 PM »

2Pe 1:4† Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine

2Pe 1:5† And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
 
2Pe 1:6† And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
 
2Pe 1:7† And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
 
2Pe 1:8† For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
2Pe 1:9† But he that lacketh these things is blind and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Charity(26)

G26
ἀγάπη
agapē
ag-ah'-pay
From G25; love, that is, affection or benevolence; specifically (plural) a love feast: - (feast of) charity ([-ably]), dear, love.


Is Peter describing the stages one must go through to become truly "charitable?" Or can these attributes be randomly obtained? Can someone constantly make intemperate statements yet have charity? Can we question our own faith and the faith of others and still display true (agape) love and charity?

Can someone have nothing more than a clue of God's plan and purpose for mankind and yet have perfect agape love which is charity

Do we need to have patience and longsuffering before we can manifest charity or do some start with charity and work their way back?

Does true charity seek the approval of men or the will of God, do some charitable actions seem bitter to the recipient because this action is not what the recipient desires?


1Ti 1:5† Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience and of faith unfeigned:
 
1Ti 1:6† From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

I find it interesting that Paul would say "the end of the commandment is charity" apparently suggesting that true charity is a culmination of the other spiritual attributes.

Sometimes true love also needs to be "tough love" with sound advice and corrective actions, it seems to me that Paul is saying that some have turned talk of charity into "vain jangling."


What do you think?

Joe


Joh 12:43† For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
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iris

  • Guest
Re: The Progression to Charity
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2007, 04:00:13 PM »

Joe,

You asked the question: Can someone constantly make intemperate statements yet have Charity
(christian love)?
I looked the word intemperate up in my dictionary.
The definition: 1. given to immoderate indulgence in intoxicating drink. 2. not temperate or
moderate, esp. as regards indulgence of appetite or passion.
What kind of intemperate statements are you talking about? Could you give me two examples
so I can better understand what your saying?


Iris
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: The Progression to Charity
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2007, 04:17:24 PM »

Hi Iris,

An intemperate statement may be an unfounded accusation or words meant to cause strife or division, even in the form of a question. It can mean any act resulting from a lack of self control or good judgement, excessive behavior often caused by an emotional rather than logical thought process.

Temperance1466

G1466
ἐγκράτεια
egkrateia
eng-krat'-i-ah
From G1468; self control (especially continence): - temperance.

I hope that helps to clear it up, thank you for asking.

Joe
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: The Progression to Charity
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2007, 04:33:07 PM »

Joe

Good thoughts and questions!

Here are some scriptures that come to mind for me to add:

Paul wrote in 2 Cor 10: 5 inasmuch as we REFUTE ARGUMENTS and THEORIES †and REASONINGS †and EVERY PROUD AND LOFTY THING †that sets itself up AGAINST the true knowledge of God;

To me this says that Paul was intollerant of arguements, theories, reasonings and prideful high sounding flashy falsity that was actually against the true knowledge of God. So Paul, exposed, refuted and TOOK CAPTIVE such blind vanities. ..and we lead EVERY THOUGHT and purpose away captive into the obedience of Christ.

Now that would not be applauded by some and by others it would be heroic! It would win friends and make enemies!How many of us are willingto live like that. We only want friends we do not want to MAKE enemies!

2 Cor 2 15 For we are the sweet fragrance of Christ which exhales unto God discernible alike AMONG THOSE WHO ARE BEING SAVED and among those who are perishing; 16 to the latter it is an aroma wafted from death to death, a fatal odor, the smell of doom; to the former it is an aroma from life to life a vital fragrance, living and fresh. 17 For we are NOT; like so MANY, like hucksters making a trade of peddling God's Word.....

James 2 : 8,9 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9 But if you have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.


You wrote |: Sometimes true love also needs to be "tough love" with sound advice and corrective actions, it seems to me that Paul is saying that some have turned talk of charity into "vain jangling." †Well said Joe! 8)

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
« Last Edit: March 11, 2007, 04:40:07 PM by Arcturus »
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iris

  • Guest
Re: The Progression to Charity
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2007, 05:00:06 PM »

Joe,

Yes, it did help, thank you.† ;D

Iris
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: The Progression to Charity
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2007, 05:07:47 PM »

Joe, you have touched on a very important aspect along ones journey to true understanding of God's love for us. :)

You asked:

Is Peter describing the stages one must go through to become truly "charitable?" Or can these attributes be randomly obtained? Can someone constantly make intemperate statements yet have charity? Can we question our own faith and the faith of others and still display true (agape) love and charity?


You first ask if one must go through the all tha stages to become truly charitable? The answer is dependant on ones definition of the word "truly." If the term is used as "being" charitable, then yes, one can be truly charitable, with the will and desire to constantly seek and to help others. However, if the word truly is interpreted to mean: Can one fully know and understand the only True One behind all charity, then answer can only be No. :

Can we question our own faith and the faith of others? Well this is dependant on how one classes oneself. If I or another professes to be "called" or even "chosen" by God, yet fail in any of the attributes given by Peter, then yes. :)

2Pe 1:4 †Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine

2Pe 1:5 †And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
 
2Pe 1:6 †And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
 
2Pe 1:7 †And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
 
2Pe 1:8 †For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
2Pe 1:9 †But he that lacketh these things is blind and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Peter gives us a wonderful benchmark for use. If one is seen to be constantly failing in brotherly love, then truly they surely have become blind, for the truth is hidden from them.

Can someone have nothing more than a clue of God's plan and purpose for mankind and yet have perfect agape love which is charity

Not as long "perfect" means meeting all of the criteria the Peter lists, today, tomorrow and always. :) (Tough order in todays world)

Do we need to have patience and longsuffering before we can manifest charity or do some start with charity and work their way back?

Some of course can have charity without patience and longsuffering, but it will not be true or perfect.† All charity is of God, but motive comes from ones own heart. :)

Does true charity seek the approval of men or the will of God, do some charitable actions seem bitter to the recipient because this action is not what the recipient desires?

This is question is double sided. There are many times when an act of charity is reliant on the approval of both man and God; other times charity is "true" because it sought not to please man before God.

An example of both can be given, when a brother or sister comes to you with the the hope of an attentive ear regarding a question they may have, or advice that they seek.

If they are seeking understanding, and I as a brother show true charity by listening attentively and seeking to help, will without a doubt give my response in a approving manner so as to demonstrate brotherly kindness and charity. The brother or sister in question should feel this genuine brotherly kindness and charity. If not, surely I have failed them as well as God.

However, if a brother or sister comes to me asking for help in bending or breaking the law, then I am compelled to give an answer that is pleasing to God first, and to them second. Second, because if I show anything other than brotherly kindness and charity to this brother or sister, then I haven't truly sought the approval of God, or my brother or sister, even if the answer is not what was "wanted" and is correct in form but not spirit..

Great Thread Joe,

Comments are always welcome :)

Your brother in Christ,
Darren
« Last Edit: March 11, 2007, 05:17:30 PM by YellowStone »
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Redbird

  • Guest
Re: The Progression to Charity
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2007, 08:44:44 PM »

First of all, I want to say that I take no credit for being me.  For I am one of God's creation.  But I do know this, that God loves me very much.  And I have wondered - why me???  Well, maybe because I have loved God and Jesus for as long as I can remember.  I always read the gospels, and any other words written in red, (Jesus's words) in the bible, cuz I figured what Jesus had to say was most important. The verses I pretty much lived my life by are Mathew 22; 37-40, and you know what they are~

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.  This is the first and great commandment.  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

So, I started at that.  Just now, am I learning of this diligence, virtue, knowledge, temperence, patience and godliness.  (Mind you, I now also have 3 adolescent sons!)  So, I think God is teaching me the rest of the bible ~ even if it is backwards.....or is it???

In His grace,
Lisa

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gmik

  • Guest
Re: The Progression to Charity
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2007, 09:05:26 PM »

I often wondered why people that weren't "christian" could be heroic, selfless, giving toward others, volunteering etc etc.

Then there would be "christians" who wouldn't lift a finger to help anyone if they didn't get something out of it.

When I first "got saved" 34 years ago, I thought I would start being more like that first group. I always thought of these verses as step one, then you can add in step 2 and eventually you got to charity which I thought was God's love.  I thought you could never actually attain it, tho.

I would hope it is a work in progress.  We as humans are prone to goof ups (His design), so I think you could say something dispariging{sp} while still trying to follow Peters advice.  Just the fact of knowing these scriptures remind me of the work yet to be done in me and one that I would keep in front of me just to measure me, in my life, personally.  Not in the whole scope of things as that is Gods will.

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joyful1

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Re: The Progression to Charity
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2007, 10:23:13 PM »

Joe-
You know I used to believe that mentally challenged people especially, and a few certain "kind" souls that come into the world now and then, truly have the "charity" that you speak of....
but if I use my own son as an example....
I've come to realize that his limited mental capacity does not allow him to KNOW the true "beastly" me that is his mother...God does....and He is letting ME see ME for what I am...but my son simply and completely TRUSTS me and LOVES me with no questions whatsoever....but he doesn't KNOW me, as Jesus does....
I have come to the conclusion that true CHARITY (agape love) comes to a person who KNOWS who you are and doesn't let that get in the way....indeed, loves you more because they UNDERSTAND who you are....and what it will take to change you....and they have that hope for you....
so ...I would have to say that agape love is an attribute of a mature (perfect) Christian, and comes after UNDERSTANDING all the other attributes that you've listed, regardless of the order in which they are attained.
Joyce :)
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: The Progression to Charity
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2007, 02:58:29 AM »

Joyce

I have just completed listening to Rayís Repentance video part 2 and I can see there is some bearing on what you mention about the beast and knowing it is there or not knowing it at all as in mentally challenged persons. I do not think mentally challenged people see either the mote or the beam...they just see yesterday today and tomorrow all in one perhaps?

Anyway for those of us who are not mentally challenged Ray explained something very interesting that I think can add to this discussion.

 Ray reveals that where Jesus says
Matt 7 : 4 ..how can you say to your brother, Let me get the tiny particle out of your eye, when there is the beam of timber in your own eye?

Ray explains how. He says that if you have a beam of timber in your eye, you will only see a tiny particle in your brotherís eye. But if you take out the timber in your eye you will soon see that the little particle in your brotherís eye is also a beam of timber!

Ray explains that God makes vessels for honour and dishonour and the vessels of honour he will harden or have mercy on.

From this I recall that we are the beast and need to repent because we are guilty of carnality. 

When the beam is out of our eyes we will see and know that man is carnal and guilty. We will know and be grateful to God for His mercy on us and we will judge not knowing that we could be anyone of those vessels appointed to Gods wrath. We can not make a vessel of wrath into a vessel for Gods honour but we can discern the difference and in that discernment grow in humble gratitude towards God for His mercy towards us for truly there for the grace of God go we.

Rev 22 : 11 He who is unrighteous, unjust, wicked, let him be unrighteous still; and he who is filthy vile, impure, LET HIM be filthy still: and he who is righteous, just, upright, in right standing with God, LET HIM do right still; and he who is holy, LET HIM be holy still.
Only by the foolishness of preaching can God work a vessel into becoming what He pre-ordains it to become. It is Christ that brings the reward. We can increase in our gratitude towards God that we are not made for wrath and in this way the world can grow strangely dim and those who are in the world can likewise become the same as our eyes open more and more to behold the Glory of Gods holy Son.

When we realise that we can not change people because as Ray points out, that a person changed against his will is of the same opinion still,...and if we are not being asked,it is for us to move on in the realization that each to their own and LET HIM BE as stated in Revelations becomes a very   valuable way to keep our peace!



Peace to you

Arcturus :)


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Redbird

  • Guest
Re: The Progression to Charity
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2007, 10:26:02 AM »

Yes, God loves us regardless of who we are today, because he knows what we are to become....I heard someone once say,
"That we are who we have been waiting for".

                                         TODAY IS YESTERDAY'S TOMMORROW

Love, Lisa

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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: The Progression to Charity
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2007, 10:26:35 PM »

Darren & all that responded,

Thanks for your input, I am currently seeing this as an outlined progression because growing in His Spirit first requires the gift of faith in the Truth that is our Lord.


Jud 1:20† But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Once faith(4102) is is given to us we have the foundation to put in place virtue(703), knowledge(1108), temperence(1466), patience(5281), godliness(2150), brotherly kindness(5360), charity(26).

G4102
πίστις
pistis
pis'-tis
From G3982; persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

G703
ἀρέτη
aretē
ar-et'-ay
From the same as G730; properly manliness (valor), that is, excellence (intrinsic or attributed): - praise, virtue.

G1108
γνῶσις
gnōsis
gno'-sis
From G1097; knowing (the act), that is, (by implication) knowledge: - knowledge, science.

G1466
ἐγκράτεια
egkrateia
eng-krat'-i-ah
From G1468; self control (especially continence): - temperance.

G5281
ὑπομονή
hupomonē
hoop-om-on-ay'
From G5278; cheerful (or hopeful) endurance, constancy: - enduring, patience, patient continuance (waiting).

G2150
εὐσέβεια
eusebeia
yoo-seb'-i-ah
From G2152; piety; specifically the gospel scheme: - godliness, holiness.

G5360
φιλαδελφία
philadelphia
fil-ad-el-fee'-ah
From G5361; fraternal affection: - brotherly love (kindness), love of the brethren.

G26
ἀγάπη
agapē
ag-ah'-pay
From G25; love, that is, affection or benevolence; specifically (plural) a love feast: - (feast of) charity ([-ably]), dear, love.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

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joyful1

  • Guest
Re: The Progression to Charity
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2007, 11:55:27 AM »

Joe--
What do you believe Jesus was getting at in the verse that follows?

Luke 18:16-17
But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 17Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

I see them (the children) possessing that pure, completely trusting, innocent LOVE....that I once took to be "agape" love, and indeed it may be...I just don't know....

but my point is this: if we are to RECEIVE the KINGDOM of GOD AS A LITTLE CHILD....we must be LIKE them in some way....what WAY would that be? ???
Joyce
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: The Progression to Charity
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2007, 01:43:41 PM »

Hi Joyce,

I believe this is more an admonishment to come to Him without preconceived notions and to approach our spiritual development with a childlike dependence on Him. As a young child eagerly learns at the feet of his/her parents we should be learning and desirous of His Wisdom in the same manner.

As a child we need milk for growth, as believers we need the milk of His Word to grow and add to our faith, give a toddler steak and he will either starve or choke on it.

Christ is speaking how we first enter into the process of spiritually growing into His Kingdom with faith (in Him) as the foundation, does a small child display virtue? Or knowledge? Temperence? Patience? Perhaps in tiny doses but not consistantly. They certainly can display love to their provider and caretaker, their nurturer but can a child have a true empathy for humanity at this stage of their development? They do not have the knowledge or life experience to draw from to attain this yet.

The apostles for the most part knew they had little to no knowledge and were childlike in their devotion to Jesus, the Pharisees thought they knew it all or enough to get by without Him.

Remember the apostles spent over 3 years with Jesus as He ministered, where were they when Jesus was being beaten and tortured, were they displaying agape love, willing to suffer with our Lord as He suffered because of their undying love for Him?
No, they ran like children. They were on their way to the Kingdom but surely had not arrived yet.

Once they received the Spirit at Pentecost they truly began to grow spiritually, but not suddenly, not overnight, read the Acts of the Apostles and you can see rapid development but not a total transformation. Their growth was also in steps and stages.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
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joyful1

  • Guest
Re: The Progression to Charity
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2007, 07:54:09 PM »

Thanks, Joe--
I'd never quite looked at it that way before! Sorry if I am taking up too much time on the BASICS!! I know that I have so long a road to walk....your patience and the patience of all of those here is greatly appreciated!
Joyce :)
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: The Progression to Charity
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2007, 08:47:19 AM »

Hello again Joyce,

You are welcome and there is absolutely no need to apologize whatsoever.

We all have a ways to travel yet, the journey He has us on gets more interesting day by day as we absorb more of His Knowledge and understand more of His plan and purpose for all His children.

His Peace and Wisdom to you Sister,

Joe

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