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Author Topic: Preordained  (Read 10746 times)

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Sorin

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Preordained
« on: March 13, 2007, 10:25:03 AM »

From the email section:


"Why does God pre-ordain for certain men to rape little girls?
Why does He preordain for this to happen?

Lee


Dear Lee:
We must be careful how we use words and phrases and also be careful not
to draw fallacious conclusions from Scriptural Truths. The Bible nowhere says
that God "pre-ordained" such sins. It says he has a fore-knowledge OF such
sins. Many people over the years have tried to force me into saying that God sins
and that God is evil, but I won't say it, because I don't believe it. God nowhere
says that He "ordains" sin, and so I don't say it either.

God did not "pre-ordain" me to eat Girl Scott cookies today, but I did. Man has
the ability to think, plan, create, imagine, and carry out these devised lusts of his
heart, and yes, God KNEW a long time ago just what we would do,  but nowhere
does it say that God "pre-ordained" our sins. We live and operate under law. We
automatically do certain things under certain stimuli. It does not need to be "pre-
ordained."

Maybe what you are really asking is why did God create humanity so that they would
sin under all of these different stimuli?  But that's a topic too big for an email. Besides,
I have covered these things many times in the articles on our site. If you look up ordain
or ordained in a concordance, you will find that God has ordained dozens of things in
the Scripture, but nowhere does it say He ordained particular sins.
God be with you,
Ray"



-----------------------------------------


Ray's answer sounds as if we have free will, and God doesn't control everything, He just has a foreknowledge of the future. If God doesn't preordain certain sins, then isn't it possible to do or not do certain sins which are supposedly in His foreknowledge, in which case God would be mistaken? He thought we were going to do it, but we didn't, 'cause it's not preordained, therefore doesn't have to come to pass?

I don't have a problem with God not preordaining sins, but I don't see how that goes with us not having free will, and God working all things after the counsel of His own will. I understand we have a mind, and we can think, but if we don't have free will, our mind is made to think, and we are caused to will. Therefore, the littl girl rapist is caused to rape her. He did not do it freely, on his own without any causation because then that would mean he had freewill. Therefore, I find this concept of no free will,  yet, sins are not preordained to be confusing. ???

I believe, if we truly don't have free will, and if our lives are preordained, whether we'd be rich or poor, criminal or a law obiding citizen, gay, straight, or pedophile, then
someone like that little girl rapist was predestinated to rape little girls. That's why he is attracted to little girls, if he could have changed that, then you might say he can thwart God's plan for his life, no?  or are we to believe that God's plan and intention for this man's life was for him to be a law obiding, God fearing citizen, and he just freely chose on his own to rape little girls? Wouldn't that also be thwarting God's plan? But who has withstood His intention?


Rom 9:17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. {Did Pharaoh do some pretty bad things, yes, who has raised him up? ]

   Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth [{like little girl rapists hearts}.

   Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will {Should be intention, but still, who has resisted it}?




So yes, I'm pretty confused,
Sorin



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sansmile

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Re: Preordained
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2007, 10:41:06 AM »

Hi sorin,

But by having foreknowledge He KNOWS what choices we will make?
So He knows already what my choices (that He puts in front of me) wil be, wether good or bad?

Do you see what i mean??

God Bless Sandie
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Sorin

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Re: Preordained
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2007, 10:48:55 AM »

Hi sorin,

But by having foreknowledge He KNOWS what choices we will make?
So He knows already what my choices (that He puts in front of me) wil be, wether good or bad?

Do you see what i mean??

God Bless Sandie


Hi Sandie, yes I realize that. So now that begs the question, how does God know what we will do in the future, if He doesn't cause us to, or our sins are not preordained? I have a theory about that, we have a freewill, and God is outside of time, and can see into the future, because He is everywhere, past, present and future.
If we don't have free will, then we are caused to do things, everything we do has a causation, and that would include raping little girls. So then, how is it not preordained? How does the causation come about? Randomly? Then wouldn't it be fair to say that Randomness is working all things after the counsel of it's own will?

See, like I said, confusing.

Sorin


« Last Edit: March 13, 2007, 10:51:15 AM by Sorin »
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Kat

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Re: Preordained
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2007, 11:29:34 AM »


Hi Sorin,

I looked through Ray's email on free will and could not find one that addresses your question exactly.  But I found these that I think together pretty much cover your question. 
Because of there length I brought just the link to them.

http://bible-truths.com/email17.htm#why
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1744.0.html
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1493.0.html
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=253.msg2134#msg2134

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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Craig

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Re: Preordained
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2007, 01:27:14 PM »

Sorin,

Free will is the hardest thing to wrap our minds around that I have found.

God created us "sinning machines"  and "made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope"

If God created us this way then how could we react any differently.  Yes we have the ability to make choices, we do all the time, and we consider this "free will", but that is an illusion.

If we are created to respond to our own vain thoughts and actions we cannot help but follow through on those thoughts.  God lays down the gauntlet of life for us to overcome, but we cannot ever hope to overcome them by our own will or attempts.  When we realize what we are and cry out for God to lead us (remove our vain thoughts and reasoning) then we will make progress over our sins and actions.  The only thing we have to look toward to, wtih the faith that God gives us, is "hope".

Ray has said many times that we should thank God that we were not created with the same makeup and upbringing as Hitler, a child moletster, etc.  Because if we did we would respond the exact same way.

I am going to use the analogy of a computer (and no, I'm not saying we are God's "computers" or "puppets")  A computer makes thousands of choices a minute, but those choices are all programmed by the programmer.  If I want a computer to respond one way then I give it the input it needs to make the choice that I know it will.  It can't make any other choice, (out of thousands of choices it makes to get to the end), it will always end up were I wanted it to.  But a computer, unlike us, does not care why it chooses the way it does or feels good or bad over the choice.  We do, when God shows me my sin, that doesn't keep me from still sinning, but when I do it pains me and makes me cry out to God to take the place of that sin in my life.  And even if I don't, (and won't) overcome all the sin in my life I am given the hope of being perfected in Christ's image.

I believe the illusion of "free will" is so strong because many of us have will's that are also strong.  I can will myself to not ever commit adultry, and I may be successful all my life, but if I see a beautiful female, inside there is the turmoil of the struggle with the sin and my thoughts.  As long as that turmoil is there and my thoughts are of a carnal nature then as Christ alluded to, I am still guilty of adultry.  When the turmoil and thoughts are no longer there at all, then I have truelly overcome that sin, but it was not of my doing, it was all of God in me.

Now, God creates us subject to vanity and sin, and when we live this life on an earth that is also created the same way, with a billion people all created the same it is no problem for God to know what our choice will be when the appropriate action is put before us.

So take me back in time 60-70 years and put me in charge of the nazi's.  Would I respond the same as Hitler?  No I wouldn't, but put me in his shoes, his life growing up and give me the same choices that he made to get to where he ended up and I/we would do the same as him.

Clear as mud? :)  I'm sure for most my thoughts won't help at all, but it works for my feable brain, and even then I still struggle with these questions.

Blessings
Craig
« Last Edit: March 13, 2007, 01:28:47 PM by Craig »
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JJ

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Re: Preordained
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2007, 02:59:18 PM »

Sorin,  I hope what Craig shared has helped untwist this hard concept. 

Craig,  thanks for sharing.  This really helped keep my head on the track of truth.

The understanding of these truths- no free-will-- God's sovereignty -  they
twist the mind to the point of pain, BUT  when it clicks, and we see that we
ARE capable of any beastly sin,  it is very freeing......   is this because the
Truth does set one free?

Very good example with adultry.  Some of us do have the strong-will power
(from the experience, training, background- and personality that God GAVE us)
to resist ACTING out this sin, but very few of us can be DEAD to the sin of
desire/thinking/considering....... in time, with age and exerience and the pain that
our sin causes, God motivates us to even resist the thinking part...... when will
that time come?   I want rid of my sin!!  I want rid of my pride!

Forgive me as I once again quote C.S. Lewis:

"The pleasure of pride is like the pleasure of scratching.  If there is an itch, one
does want to scratch; but it is nicer to have neither the itch nor the scratch.  As
long as we have the itch of self-regard we shall want the pleasure of self-approval,
but the happiest moments aer those when we forget our precious selves and have
neither but have everything else instead." 

self-regard or self-indulgence-- both selfish pleasures that are hard to shake.
and we as humans are loved by God, but not worthy of worship--- only the
One, True, Awesome, SinLESS, All-powerful, All-knowing, Totally loving and merciful
and just God of creation is worthy of worship and honor.   

when I think of His greatness and then realize my desire for self-regard and pleasure--
it  sickens me deeply-- to the point of begging God for release from my sin...... thus
the cycle begins, as Craig explained.

jayle

 
« Last Edit: March 13, 2007, 03:04:16 PM by JJ »
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Preordained
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2007, 04:52:42 PM »

hello Sorin

I have volunteered been caused to answer your post.  :D My comments and how I understand this vast and wonderous subject you have opened up, is  in red. As already mentioned, the subject of free will is not easy! I can see and appreciate your effort to understand! I hope you will be further encouraged to really get a grasp on this awesome truth!

Ray's answer sounds as if we have free will,.... Where? How? Free will by Ray’s definition is the ability to act INDEPENDENTLY of God. Ref LOF 15 B and God doesn't control everything,... Again, where? How? Ray says God is operating ALL according to the counsel of His own will, that HE Himself is the CREATOR OF EVIL. This is the theme of His teachings. He just has a foreknowledge of the future. God doesn’t JUST have a foreknowledge of the future. God is not only omniscient He is also omnipotent. He is ALL knowing and ALL powerful. That is what makes Him God.   If God doesn't preordain certain sins,... God does not pre-ordain certain sins. There is no if about this. God does not authorise, or agree with or approve of sin. then isn't it possible to do or not do certain sins No it is not possible to do or not to do certain sins. We have no choice. God knows we will sin. He knows that we sin automatically. He knows which sin we will perform before we perform it. Mk 14:30 ...before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice..God knows us better than we know ourselves! which are supposedly in His foreknowledge, in which case God would be mistaken? Ray teaches that God has never made a mistake, changed His mind, been surprised by anything, knows everything that will happen before it happens because God is Sovereign. Ref Praying by God’s rules.   He thought we were going to do it, but we didn't, 'cause it's not preordained, therefore doesn't have to come to pass? Here is what you are saying and it is correct: God THOUGHT we were going to do it, but God did not ordain it so it did not happen. In other words, God prevents us from being as evil as we would be without His control and prevention. On our own we are carnal and evil. God knows this. Without God nothing good can come out of us that is why we need God to work on and in us which He does. So for God it is much more powerful than just a thought as you suggest. God doen't THINK we are going to sin. HE KNOWS IT!

I don't have a problem with God not preordaining sins, but I don't see how that goes with us not having free will, There is no short cut. You have to think for hours and hours on what Ray has taught. Ray had to think for thousands of hours to get the revelation. and God working all things after the counsel of His own will. I understand we have a mind, and we can think, but if we don't have free will, our mind is made to think, and we are caused to will. Therefore, the littl girl rapist is caused to rape her. Correct. Any one can be the rapist. The point to watch for is that the rapist LIKES to rape and sin and enjoys  carnality until God begins to teach, chastise and train him to begin to loath his sins and eventually cry to God to deliver him from out of his wretchedness and bestiality.  He did not do it freely, on his own without any causation because then that would mean he had freewill. Correct. We are to be made to know evil just like God knows evil and in the image of His Son, to eventually be washed of all sins stains and made pure and sinless not because we have never sinned but because we are purified through the sin offering that Jesus has paid already. Therefore, I find this concept of no free will,  yet, sins are not preordained to be confusing.   God creates evil. Man’s carnality lusts to sin. Without evil there can be no sin. Eventually there will be no evil. Jesus Christ will save us all from sin and we will be made into the image of Christ. Evil is the process and sin and death will one day be no more when God will be all in all and death will be defeated.

I believe, if we truly don't have free will, and if our lives are preordained, whether we'd be rich or poor, criminal or a law obiding citizen, gay, straight, or pedophile, then
someone like that little girl rapist was predestinated to rape little girls. That's why he is attracted to little girls, if he could have changed that, then you might say he can thwart God's plan for his life, no? Yes. For this reason we should be on our knees every day thanking God that He has not selected us to be a vessel for His wrath. We should be appreciating and perceiving God’s Grace Mercy and Unmerited Favor towards us and this should be aspiring us towards a spirit and soul of deep awe and knowledge of Gods power and plan to save all.   or are we to believe that God's plan and intention for this man's life was for him to be a law obiding, God fearing citizen, and he just freely chose on his own to rape little girls? No. We should not believe such unfounded unscriptural and unscientific nonsense. Wouldn't that also be thwarting God's plan? No. That would be God giving  them over to a reprobate mind Rom 1 : 28 But who has withstood His intention? Non one as Ray teaches but everyone has gone against the will of God. Pharaoh did and we all do because we have all fallen short of God’s glory.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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andrevan

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Re: Preordained
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2007, 11:50:51 PM »

Hi Everyone.

I completely understand your dilemma Sorin.
I have been struggling with this preordained thing and sin ever since coming across Ray’s material. I cannot get my head around it completely ::). I agree with Ray and understand how we do not have a free will though.

I keep coming back to the following reasoning:
People’s actions (like child molestation) are caused by something either known or unknown to that person and other people.

Circumstances and causes bring a man to a situation where he then rapes a girl. Who brings about the causes? Who is the first cause? Who brought about the causes to make the man become lustful and cause him to rape?

Is God not the first cause, if God has Satan on a leash, then God is still the first cause is He not? God brought about the causes that hardened pharaoh’s heart, God brought about the causes that hardened the Jews’ hearts when Jesus taught them. God brings about the causes that cause a man to rape a girl. God is responsible is He not? We are accountable for our sins, but God is the one who brings about the causes that make us sin. It could not have been any other way for that man who rapes a girl, he was caused by circumstances.

I wish I could get my head around this. Ray’s second reply to that email did not go far enough for me. I know God does not sin, and He is not evil, but He still causes sin and evil through circumstances?

I know God understands my problem with this, hopefully He can use someone here to set me right. To me it is all about God’s causation.

God’s peace to you all.  :)
Andrevan.
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stego

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Re: Preordained
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2007, 03:02:26 AM »

Hi Sorin,
    Well i must say i am very surprised by Ray's email response on this topic.  I think we cannot deny that God is the cause of the universe and everything and everyone in it, and has planned/dictated/ordained everything that has ever happened and will ever happen in the universe.  Sorin, I agree with you, his response doesn't make sense, and is not compatible with what he has previously said on this topic.  I think Ray would not deny that God planned from the very beginning that he would eat a girl scout cookie at exactly the time that Ray actually did eat a girl scout cookie.  And if God planned it, there was no way it would not happen because what God plans God also dictates and ordains to happen.  Ray has done an excellent job of explaining why God intended for us to experience evil, and a rapist is just another example of evil in action.  So there is nothing wrong with God intending for a rapist to rape someone, because such experiences of evil serve a much much greater purpose in the future.  So although Ray is correct that the scriptures don't specifically say that God ordains rapists, we know from other scripture that God is the cause of all evil.   There is nothing that has happened or will ever happen that God has not planned/ordained/dictated/intended to happen.  Anyways, I'm befuddled by Ray's response, but I have yet to be convinced that God has not ordained everything that has ever happened and will ever happened.   Maybe Ray believes the word "ordained" means something different then "To prearrange unalterably; predestine"   ???
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Brett

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Re: Preordained
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2007, 03:36:50 AM »

Well.............. :-\

I understand very well of Sorin's confusing and so was Lee. They have good points and so are Andrevan. I have to admit, I am confused, too. Not that I am confused in God’s words, but in e-mail.....  I have been holding and not to say anything for long time until I see e-mail section "Preordained". This is not the first time, I have seen several times. I though, "Oh no! Not again!" I still not want to say anything because I feel it will brush us off. I just finished study of "Lake of Fire Series: 'Myth of Free Will Exposed'" part b today, and now I start to study in part c in few pages. I though this letters of comments with scriptures are profound proof to me. Ray did very well matching scriptures to scriptures. I am so happy to know more deep. This stuff is very deep things to know the mystery of God. But, today with "Preordained" in the e-mail............ Gee! I don’t know............. I feared this would not pretty debating.

Anyway, I see all the happening in the world everyday, not just rape girls, many things happening, men dragged woman to death on the road in front of her children at the middle east, etc, etc, etc. Those things are difficult understand for me (maybe just barely little understand) of why this must happened. I hate to see terrible things in the world. But I know one thing, when we resurrection in the future, whether first or second, we will (and all mankind) finally understand of how and why God operated in this whole world for His own good. What good? To save all mankind. Heal all this sick, evil, pain, bitter, weep, etc, etc... and for His glory before us (Rom. 8:20). I have confidence at the resurrection. It will be good. We never considering of God is sick person (or disgusting). Joseph had trouble understand of why his brothers' evil things had to happen to him, then for long time, their brothers came to Joseph and finally he now see clearly of why God brought this happened was for His own good. For what happened? For He saved many from the starve to death. That was good! God will judge all mankind for what they have done, He will discipline, pruning, and they will learn God's truth.

Brett  :)
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Preordained
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2007, 05:28:22 AM »

Hello everyone

Perhaps if we look at the myth of free will from another angle it might become clearer.

God created evil. God created a weak heart in man. A weak heart plus evil produces sin. God doesn’t approve of sin. He wants man to become like Him and not approve of sin either but that can not happen unless man experiences sin. So God is responsible for creating the circumstances in which man can not only EXPERIENCE sin, he is made with a weak heart so he can INDULGE in sin. And God saw that His creation is good. Why? Because we can not know good unless by contrast we know evil. We can not comprehend righteous unless we know sinfulness. It is good that God has created a contrast between sin and righteousness. He starts His creation off in an experience of carnality not because that is where God has purposed it to end. No. that is the start. The end is that man will have knowledge of good and evil through experience, salvation and deliverance through purification of the LOF.

We know that God is the potter and we are His clay. So some of us are made into an Adolph Hitler and others into Mother Therese of Calcutta. It is God who decides where to put the limit of evil on us while at the same time reminding us that if we break one law we are guilty of all the law and that includes the most heinous crimes  even if we do not perform them. Why? Because we are clay and God decides who will be Hitler and who will be Therese. This too is part of the process of God to humble us to  comprehend His ways Power and Wisdom. Reverential fear of God is knowing that God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, Sovereign and responsible fully for His design that will have a remarkable outcome.  Some of us are made for wrath and others for Gods glory. In the end ALL will contain Gods glory as God will be all in all. That is remarkable and only God can do this work of salvation that is extended even to Satan! God is God. All creatures are HIS.

If I can not see the end result, or that the Will of God is to have sons and daughters in His glorious, Holy and all knowing image, then I will not see that with God, the end does justify the means. Then I will get trapped in the sink hole of dark despair and perhaps get caught in the heresy of  Hell. Eternal damnation takes away the opportunity of knowing God and His ways because it interferes with the end result of Gods plans. It interferes with  the fact that God is God and His will is that we all be saved and His will WILL be done.

The teachings and deceptions that Mystery Babylon teaches have to be unlearnt and discarded. Only few are elected to know the truth in any one generation. This is in fulfilment of the prophesy that when Christ comes there will be very little faith remaining on the earth and that too is part of the plan that will open the flood gates of mercy, judgment and knowledge will fill the earth and it will not be a small trickle of a flood…I believe it will be a cataclysmic change of  earths government to Gods authority and it will be unlike anything human kind has ever experienced….the coming of Christ…the birth from darkness to light!....the unveiling of the sons and daughters of God and the WTJ new millennium reign. Why would that be so spectacular if there is not a contrast? There will be. Jesus indicated that the world will be as in the days of Noah which means in rank evil sinful indulgence when He returns not as a one man band minority but as the King of Glory.  God ordained it and He is responsible!

I am not disappointed in Ray and neither do I see that Ray has changed his stance. I believe he has gone to the next level of comprehensive insight into the ways and purposes of God in the wisdom of actually a deeper revelation that we have yet to fully comprehend. We have to catch up! :D


Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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Chris R

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Re: Preordained
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2007, 07:42:03 AM »

Hi,

Interesting thread, And undoubtedly many reading this thread will be just as confused when it has ended, as it when in began.

 Perhaps if we were to create all of the world, and all those living in it, have all knowledge, and have a master plan, then perhaps we could run this creation differently?

And all would be cheery and filled with loving people, and there would be no wars, and no raping of little children, and no disease, no heartache, no dissapointment, no aging parents, no death, nothing to distinguish us from a computer program, how nice that would be right?....WRONG!

You all know how long this life is...it is short..VERY short. It is a vapor, it is like a flicker of a flame against the night air and is extinguished instantly.

In order to have the above life, that we all seem to want...GUESS WHAT! we have to experience war, hate, raping of little children, age, disease, dissapointmet, discouragement, darkness, sickness, and death

I'm sorry this tastes bitter and we dont like it, it is what it is, but there is hope for all mankind, You have all answered this question, but some just dont like the answer. God has a plan, He created man weak, riddled with sinful emotions, it is his plan that mankind sin for a season, But God did not sin by doing this, This inigma is of mans feeble brain, Our ways are not Gods ways, We dont even THINK like God, how dare we say to the Creator, WHY have you made me thus?

We are accountable, not responsible for our deeds.

Chris R



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andrevan

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Re: Preordained
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2007, 07:48:18 AM »

Thanks Arcturus, Brett and Stego. In different ways you've helped me. Arcturus, I agree with what you've said, you have a way of making things clear, and to the point. :)
I'm finding it hard to understand that I "volunteer" to sin. Volunteering to me is a choice, choice does not mean free will, I understand this. But if God has brought about the circumstances that cause me to sin, then really I'm not volunteering, as I could not have "not volunteered" to sin in the first place. :-\

So from what you said, I'm fine with how God does this, it is through this experience of good and evil that we learn righteousness. We need to experience & hate this sin in us & others, why else would we repent? So the man who rapes someone, or murders someone, was caused to do so by God, he did not volunteer, his choice was caused, he could not really have chosen otherwise. This is where I keep ending up.

Some of us are made into murderers and child molesters, or Hitlers, etc. It is a remarkable thing, when you realise this, and it has given me greater compassion for people, especially for the lost, the uncalled, and concern for the called trapped in Christendom. How much greater therefore will be the love and compassion from our Loving Father and His Son! Because of this causation, it only follows that God will have mercy on all & save all humanity. This is the only way I can understand this and I thank God that His ways are perfect and righteous and just... His mercy prevails!

Peace of God to you all. :)
Andrevan.

Thanks Chris as well. (Just read your post).
« Last Edit: March 14, 2007, 07:49:42 AM by andrevan »
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Preordained
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2007, 08:43:06 AM »

Very well stated Chris.

Thank you,

Joe
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Sorin

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Re: Preordained
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2007, 11:00:14 AM »

Let's look at this from a another perspective, shall we?  Suppose that little { Oh I don't know.... say 12 yr old } girl got pregnant after being raped by this man. Now, we have a new life in her belly. So according to Ray Smith's stance of God not preordaining sins, such as the rape, then that child was created by chance. God had nothing to do with it.... other then creating us with the ability to procreate, but we choose when and if we'll procreate. Therefore we were all created by chance, and not preordained by God to come into this world at any particular time, nor did God preordain our gender, and therefore, didn't preordain our lives.

See, so that's why, if you believe that God is in control, and we don't have free will, and God determines when and if we'll be born, and what our genders will be, and what we'll look like etc.... then, with the example I just gave, wouldn't it be fair to say that God preordained that rape? Doesn't God create evil? Yes, He does. So wouldn't that rape qualify as an act of evil? Yes. So then, how come God can create evil, but He can't preordain a rape {which is also evil}?


Again, I'm just trying to figure it all out.... so take it easy, eh?

Peace,
Sorin

« Last Edit: March 14, 2007, 11:10:56 AM by Sorin »
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josh

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Re: Preordained
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2007, 12:09:35 PM »

Sorin,

I've been following this thread closely... hope you don't mind if I add a few thoughts...

First let me say that, to me, the original email posed a question that seemed more like a trap or a passive aggressive attack then a sincere inquiry… I have never once read in scripture, nor at BT that God “pre-ordains certain men to rape little girls.”

Look again at Ray’s answer, the closing sentences of the second paragraph… “We live and operate under law. We automatically do certain things under certain stimuli. It does not need to be "pre-ordained."

This is certainly not a “free will” teaching, free will cannot be “automatic.”

I think we can all agree that we do have a “will”… but is that will “free”  of outside stimuli that cause us automatically or out of compulsion to act or behave in a certain or specific way.  God in His foreknowledge knows in advance what we will do, not because in that moment He is doing it for us, but because He created us with a heart that constantly chooses evil, instead of good/righteousness, for we are not yet filled with the knowledge of God.

Jeremiah 17:9
9: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it
?

I do not believe that the scriptures teach that God is a micro manager… or a puppet master… working in us to do specific evil actions, instead we willfully choose evil because God has constructed us (not by our free choice, but in His sovereignty and for His perfect plan) without an initial knowledge of God and what He desires for us and out of us… God is the initial action, everything there after is a CAUSED ACTION in response to Him and His movement.

Third I believe there is a significant difference in God being in control (being sovereign) and God controlling everything. The first implies that nothing happens outside of God's preordained plan… the latter implies that humanity has no will/desire/personality of their own, and God is simply controlling their every action… kind of like God playing a video game.

For humanity, sinning is like breathing… no one has to tell us to do it, we’ve been programmed to do it by design.  God is in control because He called all things in to being, set them in motion and has already DECLARED THE END FROM THE BEGINNING!

I agree with Ray when He states: “Man has the ability to think, plan, create, imagine, and carry out these devised lusts of his heart, and yes, God KNEW a long time ago just what we would do,  but nowhere does it say that God "pre-ordained" our sins.”

It doesn’t! God created evil (Isaiah 45:7) then He created man ineffective to righteousness. (Romans 8:20)

Isaiah 45:7
7: I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the LORD, who do all these things.

Romans 8:20
20: for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope;


Now any action that does not proceed out of faith is sin (Romans 14:23), but faith is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-10)…  If God does not give you faith, you enter into SIN by default/design.

Romans 14:23
23: But he who has doubts is condemned, if he eats, because he does not act from faith; for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.


Ephesians 2:8-10
8: For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God --
9: not because of works, lest any man should boast.
10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


Furthermore, God has already prepared every good work each of us will ever walk in… if He did not prepare it… we again will enter into SIN by default/design.

God does not cause us to sin, he created Satan for that… “HE CREATED THE WAISTER TO DESTROY” Isaiah 54:16.

Craig makes an excellent point: “…take me back in time 60-70 years and put me in charge of the Nazi’s.  Would I respond the same as Hitler?  No I wouldn't, but put me in his shoes, his life growing up and give me the same choices that he made to get to where he ended up and I/we would do the same as him.”

We must not isolate God’s action to one sinful action, such as rape or even one single sinful thought… God constructs/preordains our lives (all of it not single actions) in such a way that we will become His desired end result… HIS IMAGE!

Ray eludes to this in the last paragraph of his second response:

“Let me help you with the answer:  Why is it wrong for one man to kill another man, but it is not wrong for God to kill a man? Several reasons:  [1] Intent of heart. God kills out of righteousness.  [2]  God kills for the welfare of the one He kills. [3] God has the power to bring back to life and rectify all wrongs and all evils, and is therefore FULLY JUSTIFIED IN ALL HIS WAYS.”

I understand your thought pattern here (I’ve struggled with this also)… but I believe you are seeing it from the temporal perspective here. Once again, I do not believe you can single out God’s actions without looking at the entirety of a man’s life, God’s intent for that life and how God brings about that action.

God has allowed a multiplicity of evil behaviors to reign over His creation, He has subjected us to vanity/futility NOT WILLINGLY (Rom. 8:20), so that we see and learn the difference between evil and righteousness.  Perhaps we will never understand this concept fully until we pass from the physical to the spiritual… there will most likely always be some hypothetical question that will seemingly throw a wrench in our understanding… in it’s proper God “pre-ordained” time it will all be revealed =)

God’s Peace.
Josh


« Last Edit: March 14, 2007, 12:12:28 PM by In Medias Res »
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Craig

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Re: Preordained
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2007, 12:30:36 PM »

God Bless Josh,

That may have been one of the best thought out answers on free will that I have read.

Kinda condensed down what Ray teaches.

Blessings
Craig
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Sorin

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Re: Preordained
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2007, 12:56:56 PM »

Josh, I understand what you're saying. And I wasn't implying that God forces anybody to sin, We all know that the man doing the raping is enjoying every second of it. But
that's why I brought up that pregnancy issue, because now that we have a new life, how can it have not been preordained, since God is supposedly the Creator of life, of everyone's life...including that new ******* child. No?

Or is that child insignificant? I mean after all she was raped, and therefore abortion is in order? So it doesn't count? So your response, while good, doesn't quite answer my question. So even if she gets and abortion, there was still a life there. Or atleast, a potential life.




Also, I don't understand what Ray means by "God kills for the welfare of the one He kills". How can killing anybody be for his/her own welfare? I mean other then in a case where the person is being tortured with unspeakable pain and suffering and God kills him/her to end his/her suffering. But even then, it's not really for his/her welfare, it's just
, I suppose you might say an act of mercy.


I understand that God brings back to life, and He said He will give us immortallity, and we shall never die again and all of that.... but I'm seriously not looking forward to it.
It just seems so different, no more flesh bodies, we'll have spiritual bodies, we'll no longer be given into marriage.... it's not what I want. I'd rather just be blessed here
in this life, with a long life and wealth and health like the Jews in the OT who obeyed God. But of course I can't have that, so quite frankly I see no reason to worship God.

Sorry...........
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Kat

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Re: Preordained
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2007, 01:40:55 PM »


Hi Sorin,

I see that you are really struggling with this.
I was going to give an excerpt from the 2nd Repentance audio, but I could not decide what.
So let me say, I am almost through with transcripding this from the audio, and I can post it maybe later today.  It will answer your questions very well.  As Ray goes into great detail to explain this.
So just wanted to let you know it's coming  :)

mercy, peace, and love
Kat


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YellowStone

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Re: Preordained
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2007, 02:21:55 PM »

Sorin, you have started a wonderful discussion.

I would like to offer two insights, one of Free Will and the other on Preordination that might help you understand a little better :)

- Free Will -

This is probably the greatest fallacy of all time, and I think after you read my explanation you will understand why. :)

Ray has said: " states: “Man has the ability to think, plan, create, imagine" etc. But the key to understanding Free-Will is the word Create. Yes, we can create; we can imagine a concept, think and plan it through and then create it with our hands. Yet we cannot WILL it to happen, we are NOT FREE to do so. :) God has such power to create (WILL) life, clouds, the Earth, Solar System, Galaxyies, and Universe yet we have not the WILL to boil water for coffee. Sorin, when next preented with someone saying man has free will, please correct them and say that man has FREE CHOICE. Yet, this is limited by God's Will, not ours. Should we choose to jump to the moon, we cannot, and neither can we will it. Likewise, if we choose to boill water, we first must have the necessary elements needed for us to do so, We can't will them either. :)

- PreOrdained -

There is a huge difference between knowing and preordaining. Let's say that a mother put's a plate of choclate cookies in front of a toddler and says "don't touch" Yeah right! :)

How many times and how many years would it take for that child to know and understand that just because those cookies are in reach, does not mean that they are entitiled to take any? The Parent will certainly hope that this will one day happen, could be in their teens. Here's the catch though, so the teen doesn't take a cookie for a day, week, month, year or decade, but then takes one. I think a parent would be EXTREMELY suprised if their child was presented with a plate of cookies for ten years and never took one. :)

There is another angle that we need to look at, let's say that this was a 10 year case study on 100 children starting at the age of one. Certainly there would be those children that would learn not to eat the cookies quicker than others. Could be that a few would tatse one, decide they don't like them and never take another. At the other end of the scale there are probably those that don't really care in the rules and will have or leave the cookies according to their reasoning and not the parents.

I think this would be an execellent case study and I truly would love to see the results. :)

Now substitute the cookies for the raping of a young girl, :( Sadly, it will happen. Not because there is some big time line and suddenly a man is told: "Okay buddy, it's time....." :)  No, rather it's due to our sinful nature, our sometimes willingness to harm and maim. (not all share this as not all like choclate)

God knows it is going to happen.

I hope this little analogy helps :)

Your brother in Christ.
Darren
« Last Edit: March 14, 2007, 03:56:37 PM by YellowStone »
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