> General Discussions
A Question about freewill
Kat:
Hi Jackie,
When I lay awake in bed at night, when it is quiet and dark is when I can relax and hear God the best.
I do understand what you are saying.
--- Quote ---This is so hard for me to understand, but yet I understand if that makes sense.
--- End quote ---
It seems when you come to an understanding of the Truth, you know it is true, but you can't explain it. Over time as God continues to add to that understanding you get to where you can articulate it somewhat.
But even even if you understand something from all God has shown you, how do you translate all that info. to somebody you are trying to explain it to ???
The church yrs.(and I had many) were difficult with all the false teachings, but I don't think I am naive like I use to be either. And I'm not naive now because I was naive then, the experience taught me. You see what I mean?
I like to discuss these things it help me greatly :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
PKnowler:
--- Quote from: Jackie Lee on March 23, 2007, 12:02:21 PM ---Kat last night when I was attempting to sleep The thought came to me That in comparsion to what God has prepared for us the suffering rapes murders all of these things will be worth it all.
--- End quote ---
Jackie, I think about that too. That what God is working in us will far exceed our pain and suffering in this life. It's pretty awesome to think about. It reminds me of this scripture.
Romans 8:18
I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.
I like what you said Kat:
--- Quote ---The church yrs.(and I had many) were difficult with all the false teachings, but I don't think I am naive like I use to be either. And I'm not naive now because I was naive then, the experience taught me. You see what I mean?
--- End quote ---
We learn and grow from our experiences and I believe that is the way God planned it.
Blessings, Paula :)
skydreamers:
Hi Guys,
The horrendous evil that is being done in the world to children and adults by fellow human beings is simply incomprehensible. I continue to struggle with this one as well. What is even scarier is to contemplate that these depths of evil exist in me but were stayed by the hand of God. It's weird because I do understand that I am no better than the child molester while at the same time I couldn't possibly imagine myself doing similar acts. But I think: what if I had lived that person's life?
I rarely watch tv anymore but last night for some reason, I flicked on a once favorite channel, A&E and watched part of an interview between the Iceman and a top notch psychiatrist. Apparently the Iceman was a hitman for the mafia. What struck me is that he didn't understand, nor could he explain, why he was capable of the horrendous acts that he did. He knew he was doing things that would make a "normal" person's stomach churn, but he just didn't experience the feelings of repulsion or even remorse. I've seen a similar response in other mass murderers (years ago I used to be fascinated with the criminal mind). Even if they know what they are doing is wrong and vile, they don't feel anything about it.
So what is God doing with these people? Has he turned off in them the otherwise normal mechanism the rest of us have called a conscience? And what about people like Jeffrey Dahmer who actually was horrified at his own actions and specifically did things so he would get caught. He was relieved when he finally ended up in jail. He wanted to stop but couldn't stop himself.
Doesn't this sound familiar? Don't most of us want to stop the varying degrees of evil that we are doing yet often can't? It's like God has created us in these bodies of sin, designed to sin, and then gives different people varying degrees of his spirit to overcome different degrees of sin. Why God does it this way remains a mystery to me. So while He may not directly force us to sin, by withholding His spirit, and thereby the power to overcome the sin, the evil runs rampant. I may be wrong, but this is how I am understanding it right now.
This scripture helps me somewhat, though it is not the most satisfying answer:
Romans 9:21-23 ESV
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--
I find this translation of the same verses interesting as well:
Romans 9:21-23 NLT
21 When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn't he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into?
22 God has every right to exercise his judgment and his power, but he also has the right to be very patient with those who are the objects of his judgment and are fit only for destruction.
23 He also has the right to pour out the riches of his glory upon those he prepared to be the objects of his mercy--
So it seems to me that God has made some of us specifically for honorable use and some of us specifically for dishonorable use.
2 Timothy 2:20 ESV
20 Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable.
Yet at the same time we are all sown in dishonor:
1 Corinthians 15:43 ESV
43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
I still strive to understand why it is necessary to be this way. Maybe we will never have full understanding until the resurrection.
I hope Ray will be able to write a paper on this theme soon, as this is such a difficult subject to grasp...
Peace to you my fellow strugglers,
Diana
Kat:
Hi Diana,
We all continue to struggle with the reason for all this evil, and the depth to which some will sink in their depraved actions toward other human beings.
I have come to think that there needs to be every kind of wickedness done, with nothing left out, so that it will prove the scripture;
Gen 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
This was before before the flood, and don't forget;
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
It is a great blessing that we all don't have to experience doing these evils. But we all know that humans are capable of these horrindous things because we hear about them. Maybe some few are the examples to the rest of us as to what humanity is capable of, and thus we don't all have to experience it ourselves.
It is such a difficult thing to comprehend, but I am convinced we will not carry these terrible things, whether by knowledge of them or experience of them, with us very long after we are at one with God.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
DWIGHT:
Hi all,
These all have been excellent questions and comments. Where else can we learn these depths of God but through His very chosen?
This, like all of the deep things of God, are hidden from the wise and the strong of this world and revealed to the weak and to babes. I really believe that all the evil in this world is for our benefit. This sounds very strange, but the scriptures prove from the beginning that this is so. When God created the heavens and the earth, there was only darkness...then God said let there be light. We cannot know light without darkness. In the Garden of Eden, there was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and there was also the tree of life. God told Adam and Eve that they would die if they ate the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They could not know life without knowing good and evil and death.
When Joseph (a type of the elect) was exposing his brethern for their evil to his father, they were very wroth with him and sought to do him evil. And they did evil to him and sold him to Egypt and he was cast into an evil prision. Then you know the rest of the story and in the end Joseph said, " But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." Gen. 50:20.
Joshua and Caleb, when they came back to Moses, they said the the giants in the land will be meat for us. None of the other spies believed them, but God used all the evil of the nations to bring His people into His rest. If there are no enemies there is no victory.
How can we have life without death? How can we know good without evil? God is working all of these things, especially evil, to good to them that love God and are called according to His purpose.
I know that abused children, and starving people, and wars, and death, and famine is not what we like or think our loving Father is like, and He isn't, but He uses all these things to our good. We need to see His hand in everything and in everything gives thanks to God.
We were just like those who are under the wrath of God. But He chose us before the foundation of the earth and has every right to do with us as He wills, " And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it." Jer. 18:4.
May the Lord shine His light on all of us.
In Him,
Dwight
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