A Question about freewill

[Jackie Lee]

I plan to reads Ray's paper again on freewill.
  I wanted to ask if  where we live the type of Job's we have the number of children we have or will have the husband or wife we marry is this God's will our just our choices?
I am a bit confused on freewill so anything you have to offer will be a great help.
                                                           Thanks Jackie
PS... I do plan to read that again tonight, some things just seem to go past me.

[Kat]

Hi Jackie Lee,

These are the scripture that show me that God has worked everything to be as it is.   

Eph 1:11  In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Rom 8:28  And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

2Co 5:18  Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,

Pro 16:9  A man's heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

I believe that God has directed my steps that have lead me through this life.  I may have made choices, but they were all by His design so things would go exacty as they did.

Hope this helps.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Jackie Lee]

Thanks Kat that really helps me, I have been feeling so guilty because of leaving the area my mother lives in.
I was trying to help her but everything I did just seemed to backfire.
My sister lives there thank God.
I liked it in the South that is where I was born and raised.
My husband and I both just wasn't sure what to do things seemed so wrong to be there even though it was pleasant for the most part.
Now I am 400 miles away and I still feel guilty.
She is old now and I feel like such a failure not being there for her, even though I call almost daily.
I just need to get over the guilt of not being there but at this time there is no choice but to be here.
It does make me feel better knowing I am where I am suppossed to be.
  I appreciate your answer.

[skydreamers]

Hi Jackie Lee,

I can sympathize with your feelings of guilt.  Until I came to understand God's sovereignty in all things, I felt guilty over many things, and I had many regrets.  Now I see that all things are necessary in his plan whether we understand them or not.  And believe me most of the time I DON'T understand what God is doing through me, at least not until long after.

A counterpart to the scripture Kat included is this one:

Proverbs 20:24 ESV
24  A man's steps are from the LORD; how then can man understand his way?


Indeed, how can man understand his way!!!  It's a mystery.  It's still bind boggling to me that the Lord uses our evil intents and behavior for good:

Genesis 50:20 ESV
20  As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

Perhaps you might consider that you being away from your mom is the best possible scenario for both of you.  This may be the catalyst for much growth for both of you.  Either way, God is working out His will for you and your mom in your lives.  Even if it feels like you have done the "wrong" thing, I believe it has its most necessary purpose.  Besides, your heart shows forth the concern you have for your mom and in wanting the best for her.

You wouldn't be 400 miles away if God wasn't "directing your steps".

Peace,
Diana

[Jackie Lee]

Diana thank you so much your reply was an affirmation to me.
Last night when I was trying to figure out why so many blunders, this me thinking was one of the worst... leaving my poor old mom alone.
Anyway thoughts kept pouring in my head, God was showing me if I had stayed it would have ruined a relationship not only between my mother and me but also my sister.
I have always felt guilt with things and he is relieving me of guilt.
I am sure it won't leave overnight but it is better today and anticipating with the power of God it will just be a memory soon.
Once again I want to thank you and Kat for being an instrument of God to fix me....lol 

[GODSown1]

Hi all,
      I was just wondering whats the differance between "Freewill" & "Choice", So I need to get this clear!, whatever we do!, whatevers happened is GODS will for each of us??. So then haha!, If that is so, So then that means whatever, whoever is doing in their lives is GODS Will for them? is this meaning the choices We make are really Not our own anyway But! GODS!?. So again in saying all that brings me to the conclusion if whatever Ive just said is Right!, then all the so called TeleEvangist!, the corrupt Pastors, Preachers is GODS will for them??? Please HELP!! me understand this PLEASE!!
      muchLOVE!! Pera

[Jackie Lee]

Hi Pera I have wondered the same.
I do understand a bit that freewill is not possible because there is a cause behind every choice we make.
For instance I could want to live in Australia but my husband would want to live in the states so because there is a cause behind this I may not be able to live in Australia.
We have no freewill when we are borned or when we will die and aparently none inbetween...
I hope I am on the righ track and not misleading anyone.
I am still learning and freewill is a bit of a stumbling block for me.
I just keep going over his papers on freewill and I understand more each time.
Someone *please* correct me if I am wrong.

[Jackie Lee]

I posted this today on another board concerning freewill...

I have considered once again freewill.
There can be no freewill unless there is no cause.
As much as I would like to believe I have freewill it is just an illusion.
Job had no freewill.
Pharoh had no freewill.
Peter had no freewill when he denied Jesus 3 times.
Judas had no freewill when he betrayed Jesus.
There are many other examples also that is throughout the scriptures.

I was called a fatalist and should consider Islam with my fatalist view.

[GODSown1]

Hi Jackie Lee,
                 wow! I hope ur right! lol! coz U are making sum more sense to me lol!!
             muchLOVE!! Pera

[skydreamers]

Hi Pera,

As I understand it, we can make choices, and in fact make hundreds of choices in any given day.  This in itself does not mean these choices are "free".  Our God is Sovereign and is literally in control of EVERYTHING.  He designed us and built us in such a way that we are spiritually weak...we are pulled constantly by our own lusts inherent in our carnal flesh.  This is in itself shows that carnal man is not free.  Everything in this whole universe is governed by the laws of cause and effect.  Just because we are not AWARE of what is causing our choices doesn't mean there isn't a cause.  (Behind every cause is God).  And as long as there is a cause than our will is simply not "free". 

The sections in Ray's writings are quite lengthy but they are so worth going through, even a few times.  Ray will take you through every twist and turn and back up everything with scripture.  It becomes clearer and clearer for me the more I study it.

There is also a great audio on free will here:

http://bible-truths.com/audio/freewill1.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/freewill2.mp3

This was probably the hardest truth for me to embrace but with much study, reflection, meditation on the scriptures and mega prayer I finally started to get it!  So be patient if it's not all clear at first.  It's worth studying out however, because understanding that we have no free will is actually quite "freeing"....

Peace,
Diana

[DWIGHT]

Hi All,

I just want to Amen what Diana said.  One thing that we must be careful about and that is.....we have a will.....it's just not a free will.  The difference is that our choices are made from our circumstances.  Example: Ray says that a computer can make millions of choices but has no free will.  Not that we are computers, but we have something that causes us to make these choices whether they be evil influences or spiritual influences.  In the end, God is working all things according to the council of His own will...and that includes all the choices that all mankind makes.

In Him,

Dwight

[Jackie Lee]

Thanks it is starting to make more sense even though it still confuses me a bit.
It seems almost like splitting hairs but yet I am starting to get it.

[skydreamers]

I was called a fatalist and should consider Islam with my fatalist view.

When I first considered the idea of man having no "free" will I definitely struggled with it, but in the sense that I WANTED it to be true, even KNEW it to be true, but just didn't know HOW it could be true.  It took me awhile to wrap my head around it.  I have a dear friend who saw and accepted it right away, it seemed barely a struggle for her but that is not to say she doesn't have questions.

Others I've tried to share this with resisted immediately.  They don't WANT it to be true.  I've thought about this and I know part of it is because we are all different and even if God is opening someone's eyes to it they will still work through to understanding it in different ways.  However, I also think that if they yet haven't seen their beast then they are not even ready to understand.  It is simply not their time yet.  If a person hasen't seen or understood themselves as the beast then the beast is still firmly on the throne of his heart....it does not WANT to get off, it does not WANT to relinquish its illusion of power.  I have a feeling this is why some reactions that I've received were along the lines of:  "Well, if we have no free will than God is a dictator tyrant forcing us to do everything!"  "We are merely puppets!"  They insist that if there is no free will than God is even FORCING us to love him! This is the flesh speaking.  The carnal mind cannot understand God, it's AGAINST him!

The beast is being threatened and retaliates.  If they still believe in eternal hell than they really do believe God is a tyrant.  But we who have been blessed with understanding that God is truly LOVE, understand that he is not forcing, but rather inspiring, training and causing us to go one way or the other.  He is molding us with a loving hand.

In Ray's audio he made a statement that really stuck with me:

"Sure, it would not be fun to be forced to, for example, write a book that you don't want to write, but it's wonderful to be inspired to write a book that you can't wait to write!"

I believe the carnal mind does not understand this difference.  So you will have the spiritual side that weeps with joy at this truth, and you have the carnal side within you that rejects it.  In my struggle I was able thankfully to recognize the two sides.  Those who react with anger and disdain, do not even SEE their carnality and they don't see it because God simply hasn't given them eyes to see it yet. 

If you don't even know that you, the beast, are on the throne, than you can't possibly be interested in wanting him off! 

Jacke Lee, in your struggles to understand this, the evidence that right now in you, God is kicking the beast off the throne is beautifully apparent.  This is something to greatly rejoice over, even if you don't yet understand the whole concept.  It is why you are even here, at this forum, bringing up this question in the first place.  It's God working in you...

John 15:5 MKJV
5  I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
 
Peace and God bless,
Diana

[ciy]

Good post Diana.
CIY

[Kat]

Hi Diana,

Your post was very well put 

I like the point you made about the carnal mind can not except this truth and the spiritual weeps with joy at this truth.

if God is opening someone's eyes to it they will still work through to understanding it in different ways.  However, I also think that if they yet haven't seen their beast then they are not even ready to understand.

I believe the carnal mind does not understand this difference.  So you will have the spiritual side that weeps with joy at this truth, and you have the carnal side within you that rejects it.

mery, peace, and love
Kat

[Jackie Lee]

Thank you again Diana it is almost bitter sweet, but yet I am so glad to know that I have a will and it is not without a cause.
Many times I had wondered why things work out so unusually strange.
Yet I have never had to miss a meal not once.

I have always had a decent place to live but yet sometimes my life seems like a roller coaster with some serious health problems and regrets of thinking I should have did better.
  I have learned to depend on God.

Even before I found Ray's papers and this board I knew in my inner being surely God was bringing me to this point.
I have had deep regrets as we all have but I look at it differently now.

I see it as like you said Diana.. freedom knowing I am where I am suppossed to be at this time.
There are things I am still getting a grip on but I am understanding more every day.
The Beast will be my next study even though I have went over it, I Need to get a better understanding, even though I don't doubt for one minute I am the BEAST.
PRIDE.
Funny thing is not to be judging I see the beast in family members too.
I can't tell them that yet though, because it is not time and I may not be the one to even mention it at all.
God showed me through experiences so I would think he will show them.
Family members are the last that will take one serious anyway.
At least in my case. 

Sometimes I feel so self involved I make myself Sick, it seems whenever I post it is always about me.
I really need to improve could this be the BEAST in me?
I am really thinking so.
Well anyway I am glad everyone here is patient and understand.
Thanks for letting me bend your ear.

[gmik]

Sorry I really don't have anything to add.  I just re read this entire thread and was really blessed.

Free will is a tough one for me- so freeing as far as looking back at my "mistakes"- but confusing when we think of God causing us to do evil.

I agree that rereading and prayer and rereading and study and trusting the Lord to open our eyes at the right time is the only way out of confusion.

[Kat]

Hi Jackie Lee,

It is a really good idea to reread Ray's articles 

I have noticed that when I read something the first time, even though I get a lot out of it, what I have determined is that I learn about things later in the article that I need to understand things in the beginning.  So the things I read in the beginning of the article I need to reread to gain understanding from the things I learned later in the article.  Does that make sense   
And that goes for all the articles, I learn things in every article that I need to understand things in other articles.
So there is this cycle of reading and rereading, but I gain more and more all the time.
So I hope you can make sense of this, because I think it means you really do need to read back over things to keep yourself growing in a deeper knowledge.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Jackie Lee]

Hi Kat you are right, I may not be understanding as much as I should be.
Thanks I will keep reading.

[Jackie Lee]

Sorry I really don't have anything to add.  I just re read this entire thread and was really blessed.

Free will is a tough one for me- so freeing as far as looking back at my "mistakes"- but confusing when we think of God causing us to do evil.

I agree that rereading and prayer and rereading and study and trusting the Lord to open our eyes at the right time is the only way out of confusion.

Yes That is so true.
I have just had my eyes opened enough to see I have so much more to learn.