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Author Topic: If God alone has immortality.....  (Read 11596 times)

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skydreamers

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If God alone has immortality.....
« on: March 16, 2007, 07:54:35 PM »

Okay, this might seem like a really strange and unimportant question but God has wired me in such a way that once a question pops into my head I have to pursue it until, if at all possible, I get to the bottom of it.

Last night I couldn't sleep, and as I was laying there I started thinking about "immortality" which I know means deathlessness.  God cannot die, and He alone possesses this trait:

1 Timothy 6:15-16 ESV
15   ...the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16  who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see...


Also, I understand that we are not granted immortality until resurrection time when we are fully begotten anew into the spirit.

Now, here's my question.  What about the spirit beings that God has created?  Has God given them immortality already or do they also get this at some future point?  Since the Bible says that no one but God has immortality, this seems to say to me that at the time of the writing of that scripture no spirit beings had immortality, whether the bad ones or the good ones.

So Satan and his messengers are put through the Lake of Fire which is the Second Death.  I think Ray has said somewhere that though Satan and his messengers are spirit beings, they possess carnal minds nonetheless (and so it makes sense that they would have to "die" to their carnal minds and also be begotten anew somehow).

But what about the good spirit beings?  Do they have to die too?  What will be their "experience of evil to be humbled by it"? 

I suspect that God did not create good or bad spirit beings with the purposes of transforming them to be in the "image and likeness of God".  Perhaps this is a special honor reserved for human beings??  I realize that all his creatures are his children, thus the spirit beings can be called "sons of God", but does that mean they are, or will be, in the "likeness of God"?

Does anybody else think about these silly things?  Perhaps this should be moved to the "Off Topics" section...I wasn't really sure where to post this!  I realize it's not earth-shatteringly (is that a word?) important.

Just thought there was maybe someone else out there who has mulled over these questions....

Peace,

Diana 
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Sorin

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Re: If God alone has immortality.....
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2007, 01:15:58 AM »

Diana, hope you don't mind, but I think this is a related question. If not, I can start a new thread. What exactly does it mean, to be in the Image of God? If God is Spirit, and is invisible, then how can He even have an image?   ???

Peace,
Sorin
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rrammfcitktturjsp

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Re: If God alone has immortality.....
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2007, 01:24:56 AM »

To All,

  Seems to me the answers You are looking for You are trying to base them in a limited system, that being time.  When one steps away and realizes that the time contiunium does not exist, then immortality ceases to have meaning as well does image.  For it just simply is.

  Sincerely,



  Anne C. McGuire
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josh

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Re: If God alone has immortality.....
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2007, 02:31:22 AM »

Interesting thread…

Diana,

Is it possible that 1 Tim.6:15-16 is a description/statement of ownership… as thought to say, God is the only one who has ownership of or is able to offer/give immortality?

Also, I believe 1 Cor. 6:2-3 might help in the process of answer your questions about angels…

1Co 6:2  Do you not know that the saints shall judge the world? And if the world shall be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co 6:3  Do you not know that we shall judge angels, not to mention the things of this life?



Sorin,

I think “image” refers to a fleshly vessel taking on the personality and characteristics of the invisible God.

------------------------------------------------
G1504

εἰκών
eikōn
i-kone'

From G1503; a likeness, that is, (literally) statue, profile, or (figuratively) representation, resemblance: - image.

-------------------------------------------------

I believe this is speaking figuratively as Christ was a perfect representation/resemblance of the very fabric of who God is…

I don’t know if any of this helps, but I hope you guys are having a great weekend.

God’s Peace.
Josh
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Kat

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Re: If God alone has immortality.....
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2007, 10:54:04 AM »

Hi Diana,

This is an interesting topic that I had not really comtemplated, until your question, now I can't stop thinking about it.  I looked at the scripture about angels and have come to a better understanding now.
Here are the scripture.

Heb 2:9 But, Jesus, (was)made some little less than messengers(angels), we do behold: by reason of the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour, to the end that, by favour of God, in behalf of every one, He might taste of death.
v. 10 For it was becoming in Him—For the sake of whom are the all things, and by means of whom are the all things,—when, many sons, unto glory, He would lead, The Princely Leader of their salvation, through sufferings, to make perfect.
v. 11 For, both He that maketh holy, and they who are being made holy, are, all, of One; For which cause, He is not ashamed to be calling them, brethren,
v. 12 saying—I will declare Thy name unto My brethren, in the midst of an assembly, will I sing praise unto Thee;
v. 13 and again—I, will be confident upon Him; and again—Lo! I, and the children which, unto Me, God, hath given.
v. 14 Seeing therefore the children have received a fellowship of blood and flesh, He also, in like manner, took partnership in the same,—in order that, through death,—He might paralyse(destroy) him that held the dominion of death, that is, the Adversary,—
v. 15 And might release these—as many as, by fear of death, were all their lifetime liable, to bondage.
v. 16 For, not surely of messengers(angels), is He laying hold, but of Abraham's seed, He is laying hold. (Rotherham) (from other translations)

Heb 1:4 By so much becoming superior to the messengers(angels), by as much as, going beyond them, He hath inherited a more distinguished name.
v. 5 For unto which of the messengers(angels) said He at any time—My Son, art, Thou, I, this day have begotten Thee? and again—I, will become, His Father, and, He, shall become my Son?
v. 6 But, whensoever He again introduceth the First-begotten into the habitable earth, He saith—And let all God’s messengers(angels) worship Him!
v. 7 Even as to the messengers(angels), indeed, He saith—Who maketh His messengers(angels), winds, and His ministers(servants) of state, a fiery flame;
Heb 1:13 But, to which of the messengers(angels), hath He said, at any time—Sit thou at My right Hand, until I make Thy foes Thy footstool?
Heb 1:14 Are they not, all, spirits, doing public service,—for ministry(ministering spirits), sent forth, for them who are about to inherit salvation? (Rotherham) (from other translations)

Psa 104:4 Making His messengers(angels) winds, His ministers(servants) a flaming fire, (CLV)

Luk 20:36 For neither can they still be dying, for they are equal to messengers(angels), and are the sons of God, being sons of the resurrection." (CLV)

Mat 25:41 Then, will he say unto those also, on his left hand: Depart ye from me, accursed ones! Into the age-abiding fire, which hath been prepared for the adversary and His messengers(angels); (Rotherham)

Jud 1:6 Besides, messengers(angels) who keep not their own sovereignty, but leave their own habitation(proper dwelling), He has kept in imperceptible bonds under gloom for the judging of the great day." (CLV)

2Pe 2:4 For if God spares not sinning messengers(angels), but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening judging;"

1Co 6:3 Are you not aware that we shall be judging messengers(angels), not to mention life's affairs?

Very interesting study.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat


« Last Edit: March 17, 2007, 11:00:03 AM by Kat »
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hillsbororiver

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Re: If God alone has immortality.....
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2007, 12:05:44 PM »




Very interesting study.




I will second that!

The angel/messenger status or what they truly are is still a subject I do not have a very firm grasp on at all, the scriptures (to me anyway) have not been real clear and left it a bit of a mystery.

Thank you Josh and Kat for the thoughtful posts, as this certainly is an interesting topic.

There are still so many things I have to just accept I do not know at this time.

His Peace to you,

Joe
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Jay

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Re: If God alone has immortality.....
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2007, 10:21:40 PM »

This is how I understand the issue concerning where the Bible states that only God has immortality:

God is the source and author of life. Life inheres in Him. He doesn't derive it from anyone or anything else.
Rather, all of His created beings, whether they be angelic or human, receive life from Him, THE Source! So, whether the angels are immortal at present (which I believe they are) or when immortality is conferred to humans in the future, it still will be true that God ALONE is the ONLY one that possess immortality inasmuch as HE IS that life source. It is HIS possession which He grants as a GIFT to His creatures.

As far as the angels, look at what Jesus says here:

Luke 20:36  "nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. 

Also, Jesus Himself states that He has the same quality of life that God the Father has, with one major difference:

John 5:26  "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself

The Father is the Source of Christ's life as well.

God bless.

Jay

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sansmile

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Re: If God alone has immortality.....
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2007, 10:36:34 PM »

Kat,

I don't know how to clip and post what u said!   silly me!
But when you posted the scriptures about:

Heb 2:9 But, Jesus, (was)made some little less than messengers(angels), we do behold: by reason of the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour, to the end that, by favour of God, in behalf of every one, He might taste of death.


Were not those messengers the prophets of old??  Not so much "heavenly" as angels floating, but those that were sent before....in the OT  .....to spread prophecy.?
So,  we are the sons of the resurrection, but the OT patriarchs weren't?

Am i rambling again, do you see what i mean? Or is that what you were saying?
GB Sandie
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LittleBear

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Re: If God alone has immortality.....
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2007, 12:41:52 AM »

This is a very interesting thread.

Diana, I read your post yesterday, and I just always assumed that angels were immortal. I was looking up scriptures for angels last night, but I was having a hard time correlating the two points, that is, angels and immortality, and I finally gave up. I was looking forward to reading the answers today.

The scripture of Luke 20:36 given by both Jay and Kat seems to indicate that angels are immortal.

Ursula
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Kat

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Re: If God alone has immortality.....
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2007, 12:43:41 AM »

Hi Sandie,

Heb 2:9  But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

Quote
Were not those messengers the prophets of old??  Not so much "heavenly" as angels floating, but those that were sent before....in the OT  .....to spread prophecy.?

I don't see that this word 'angels' as applying to the OT prophets.  I was thinking that He was made a little lower than the angels, as His coming as flesh and blood, while at that time the angels were still spirit.

John 1:14  And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

This verse makes me think that Jesus Christ was never lower than the prophets or any human  :)

mercy, peace, and love
Kat


 
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Snowfire

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Re: If God alone has immortality.....
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2007, 12:55:31 AM »

As strange as it may seem,  I would not even want immortality, if the mind of Christ was never in me.  Be I an angel or otherwise.
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LittleBear

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Re: If God alone has immortality.....
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2007, 10:35:22 AM »

Snowfire,

I agree. To be in a neverending state of corruption would be intolerable.

Ursula
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: If God alone has immortality.....
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2007, 03:36:55 PM »

Hello Skydreamers

I have noticed in the scriptures that they mention life eonian and life without reference to eonian.

Although the same Greek word is used, Eonian  is not mentioned in :

Luke 12 : 15....for a mans life
Luke 16 : 25...that thou in thy life time
John  1:4....in Him was Life and the Life was the light of men
John 5 : 24...is passed from death into THE life
John 5 : 26...the Father HAS life...He has given to the Son to have life in Himself
John 5 : 29...shall come forth unto the resurrection of life
John 5 : 40...you will not come to Me that ye may have life
Hon 11 :25...I am The Life
John 14: 16...I am The Life

In the Interlinear Scripture Anyalyzer John 5 : 24 Reads as follows : AMEN AMEN I-AM sayING  to-YOU that THE-one THE saying/word OF-ME HEARING AND BELIEVING  to-THE One-SENDing ME IS-HAVING LIFE eonian AND INTO JUDGing NOT IS-COMING but HAS-after-STEPPED OUT OF THE DEATH INTO THE LIFE.

There is nothing wrong with my computer.  :D That is how it is written! I have noticed that there are two different ways that the word life is presented. Maybe this means nothing or maybe I am barking up the wrong tree but I have seen that the translation is using eonian selectively and not all the time! I do not know why this is.

The Scriptures present Eonian life in the following:


Mk 10 :30 ...to come to eonian life
Lk 10 : 25...to inherit eonian life
Lk 18 : 18...to inherit eonian life
Lk 18 : 30...who shall not recieve...eonian life
John 3 : 15 ..but have eonian life
John 4 : 14...I shall give him ...springing up into life eonian
John 4 : 36..gathering fruit into life eonian
John 5 : 39...are supposing in them life eonian to be having
John 3 : 15...that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have eonian life

Could this have some significance?

Does this show that The Life IS GOD the Source of eonian life? Is eonian life THAT life that is given as a gift through Christ?  God has given THE Life to Christ Who has been able to declare that He is THE LIFE because LIFE is inherently in HIM.

Is INHERENT LIFE the in HERITANCE of the chosen? and eonian life for those who are saved? we will all be immortal and some will be eternal? I am starting to feel like Whinny the Poo....Think think think! I know I can not figure this out! I know. Only God can open up the answers but we do have to have some questions to be opened up in the first place don't you think...think think :D ;D

Somehow I do not see that this INHERENT LIFE reward has been offered to the spiritual realm but is exclusive to those who overcome the carnal and are changed from earthly to heavenly and are the Elect to whom this reward is promised. This does not erase the joy of receiving eonian life! which is perhaps the outpouring of INHERENT LIFE.

Perhaps it is only for the Elect few to have THE LIFE INHERANT with Christ in His image and likeness.  Only Christ has been given inherent life and only through Him can we ever share what has been given to Him in full by the Father.

Immortal is perhaps eonian life and eternal is perhaps life inherent.

Perhaps after the LOF which we know is not for ever, there will remain those  a) who are purified to recieve eonian life and those b) who enjoy inherent life in the image and likeness of Christ. Will it be then that Christ  will return everything back to the Father?

I somehow do not think that the Angels will have INHERENT life in them and neither do I see that all humans will have INHERENT life in them. I do not see this as a permanent end in itself but just as part of the process. Jesus talks about those who are least in the Kingdom and I believe these least ones will be those who have been perfected through the LOF and who have been granted the Grace of receiving eonian life in the purest sense. We know that is not where the process stops.

I believe that eventually when Christ returns all back to God, the differences will be erased as God becomes all in all rather like our identities will dissolve into the boundless omnipresence and omnipotence and omniscience of God. Rather like the drop of the ocean loosing its membrane as it either enters from the earth through the spring meeting the ocean or the mist in the cloud that falls from the sky into the ocean will converge one day with the great source of all creation to become one with the great I AM.

The great radiance of the SON or SUN of God reflects this into some of us who shine this truth out in these temporal times. In the end all will be saved and all must be joined back to God. Any thoughts on this?

Skydreamers, this entire thought and searching to understand is a result of your thread! There are NO unimportant questions and your thread sure got me going :D! Maybe someone will see some answers to some of the questions that I have come upon!

Peace to you

Arcturus :)







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rrammfcitktturjsp

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Re: If God alone has immortality.....
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2007, 05:12:37 PM »

To All,

  I noticed no one touched my little comment.  <laughes> Have a great day.

  Good thread by the way.

  Sincerely,



  Anne C. McGuire
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hillsbororiver

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Re: If God alone has immortality.....
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2007, 05:35:14 PM »

To All,

  Seems to me the answers You are looking for You are trying to base them in a limited system, that being time.  When one steps away and realizes that the time contiunium does not exist, then immortality ceases to have meaning as well does image.  For it just simply is.

  Sincerely,



  Anne C. McGuire

Hello Anne,

I guess I will enter where angels/messengers fear to tread, although ultimately you may very well be right this temporal existence and time itself is an illusion it is in fact an undeniable reality in our present state.

Whether it is by measure of a clock or a demand of our physical bodies or environment, there is an order that has been established by God that we all are subject to.


Ecc 3:1  To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

Our Lord is using this mechanism for His purpose, a (Strong's) word search of "time" or "season" or "appointed" will show the many ways it is being used.

There are also secular writings that postulate that although time itself may very well be "temporal" or iillusionary it is presently the heartbeat of our physical universe.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

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rrammfcitktturjsp

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Re: If God alone has immortality.....
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2007, 06:11:00 PM »

Joe,

  I am trying to figure out whether the illusion of time is necessary for our growth in our spiritual relations with Jesus and others.  I think it is necessary, and without the illusion of time, we would not have need of eachother or of God.  I am wondering what your take on this.

  Thanks, what you had to say was very deep and illuminating. 

  Sincerely,




  Anne C. McGuire
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Kat

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Re: If God alone has immortality.....
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2007, 11:27:19 AM »


Hi Arcturus,

I have been thinking on about some of the things that you posted.

Quote
Does this show that The Life IS GOD the Source of eonian life? Is eonian life THAT life that is given as a gift through Christ?  God has given THE Life to Christ Who has been able to declare that He is THE LIFE because LIFE is inherently in HIM.

All living creatures on earth have life, everything that breathes was given life by God.

Gen 1:30  "And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life..."

Gen 2:7  then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

So all living things are given life and spirit and makes a living soul.

Isa 38:15  What shall I say? He has spoken to me, and He Himself has acted; I shall go softly all my years in the bitterness of my soul.
Isa 38:16  O Jehovah, by these things men live, and in all these is the life of my spirit; so You will recover me, and make me to live.

It’s interesting that the life is in the blood.

Lev 17:11  “For the life of the flesh is in the blood…”

But after the resurrection Christ said He was flesh and bones, no mention of blood there.

Luke 24:39  Behold My hands and My feet, that I am He! Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see Me have.

So we know that Life is in Christ, but is it the same 'life' that animals or even carnal humans have?  Well, of course not.

2Tim 1:1  "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,"

1John 5:11 "And this is the testimony, that God gives us life eonian, and this life is in the Son."

1John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, at which we gaze and our hands handle, is concerned with the Word of Life."
v. 2 And the Life was manifested, and we have seen and are testifying and reporting to you the Life eonian which was toward the Father and was manifested to us." (CLV)

So the life that is so often spoken of in the NT that we receive from Christ is a NEW LIFE, and is the gift of God.

Rom 6:4  We were buried therefore with Him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

We receive this newness of life, when Christ abides in us.  It is not the same as the breath of life given all creatures.

1John 3:24  And he who keeps His commandment dwells in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit which He gave to us.

1Cor 2:12  Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.

Now the elect will fully receive this new life in the Spirit. at the first resurrection, now we just have the begettal.

Rom 8:11  But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give lifegive life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

1Co 15:44  It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

This Spirit of life will not come to the rest of humanity until the GWTJ.

John 3:36  He who believes in the Son has everlasting (eonian) life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:28  Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
v. 29  and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Quote
I believe that eventually when Christ returns all back to God, the differences will be erased as God becomes all in all rather like our identities will dissolve into the boundless omnipresence and omnipotence and omniscience of God.

We can only speculate on this, but I don’t think we will loose our identities, by dissolving into God, or did I misunderstand what you were saying?   
It seems to me at the first resurrection the elect unites with Christ and the Father in the kingdom, and will all be together in perfect harmony and Oneness.   
But I was thinking we would all still have our own individuality, as it seems that is the purpose of this life.  It just seems like He gave us these great variety of life experiences, to create in us uniqueness and individual character traits for a purpose.
And isn't the whole universe waiting for the perfecting of the human race. 
If you think about it, God does not make anything in vain, there must be something He has in mind for all these planets.  The human race that is being created into HIs image have such a variety of personalities and interest and even abilities, what a great way to put that all into use.  Christ is our example and look at what He did at creation.

Rom 8:19  For the earnest expectation of the creation waits for the manifestation of the sons of God.
v. 20  For the creation was not willingly subjected to vanity, but because of Him who subjected it on hope v. 21  that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

This is just my mind wonderings, but it gives you a lot to think about  :)

Mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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skydreamers

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Re: If God alone has immortality.....
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2007, 03:02:27 PM »

Hi Guys!

Oh boy, I have A LOT to catch up on!  I've had a wonderful busy weekend with my family so I've not yet had a chance to absorb what has been written in this thread.  At first glance I have to say....GREAT STUFF.  So many thoughts and insights to learn from.

Kat, your last post was truly profound.  I had never thought about how our life in the flesh is in the blood, but in the spirit our life is in Christ.  I mean, I knew these things but did not think much on this transition of our carnal  life to the newness of life in Christ.  Now to think of how Christ shed His blood for us is yet another example of what we must experience...losing the life in the blood and gaining the life in Christ.  The blood must be shed:  the carnal man must be shed.  It adds more meaning to why there MUST be death. 

It seems to me even death is a parable!

Quote
Quote
I believe that eventually when Christ returns all back to God, the differences will be erased as God becomes all in all rather like our identities will dissolve into the boundless omnipresence and omnipotence and omniscience of God.

We can only speculate on this, but I don’t think we will loose our identities, by dissolving into God, or did I misunderstand what you were saying?   
It seems to me at the first resurrection the elect unites with Christ and the Father in the kingdom, and will all be together in perfect harmony and Oneness.   
But I was thinking we would all still have our own individuality, as it seems that is the purpose of this life.  It just seems like He gave us these great variety of life experiences, to create in us uniqueness and individual character traits for a purpose.

I would say I'd have to agree with you on this one Kat.  I too believe that our uniqueness will be retained when we are all in all in God.  I believe it is in the wisdom of God to have us be of like mind and spirit yet still have our individual traits intact.  We know this is so right now in our fleshly lives.  Will it change in the spiritual?  I don't know, but I don't think so.  Right now the elect, with all their differences, make up the body of Christ.  The hands and the feet are different yet it is all ONE body.  You can still be one, yet have differences.  This is how I see it at this point, which admittedly is limited since my finite mind cannot entirely comprehend what it's going to be like in the spiritual.

Quote
To All,

  Seems to me the answers You are looking for You are trying to base them in a limited system, that being time.  When one steps away and realizes that the time contiunium does not exist, then immortality ceases to have meaning as well does image.  For it just simply is.

  Sincerely,



  Anne C. McGuire

Hi Anne, you may very well have a valid point here.  Although I haven't been able to listen to all of it, I know Ray was talking about time in his last audio.  He was suggesting that a "circle" is the closest thing we can compare to the idea of eternity.  There is no beginning and no end.  We are somewhere on that circle.  Our experience is relative right now to what we physically know.  Ray was saying:  "What's in outer space?"  We are! 

Our experience right now is one day to the next, getting older and hopefully with time and circumstances, getting wiser.  Because of that, my mind has a hard time right now trying to conceive of the idea that the time continuum does not exist, even if it doesn't.  It's a perplexing position to be in! 

Therefore Anne, I'd have to say that I agree with you that if time is an illusion, it is still necessary because as you say:

 "without the illusion of time, we would not have need of each other or of God".

I think my whole thing in thinking about the spirit beings and whether or not they have immortality is trying to grasp an understanding of who WE are in God's mind.  I know it has been said he desires a family who will be of like mind and spirit with him.  I wonder then sometimes, are not the good spirit beings already fulfilling this role?  Aren't they also called "the sons of God"?   As the human race I sense that we are and will be different, rare and dare I say special. We do not seem to have any other information of any other creatures who have had to go through this physical carnal struggle in this material world of good and bad.  This life we are leading in the flesh in necessary to having a full understanding of good and evil.  Do the messengers of God, whether spirit or human, have an understanding of these things?

1 Peter 1:12 ESV
12  It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.

 
I remember somewhere Ray saying that angels/messengers do not teach but rather the elect will be teaching them:

1 Corinthians 6:3 ESV
3  Do you not know that we are to judge angels?


This is incredible to think that now we are made lower than the angels, yet at some point, some of us will be judging them!  And this is what fascinates me.  What does that say about who we are!  This indeed is a "high calling".  For me, it gives a deeper meaning into the necessity of suffering.  Our experience is very different, it seems, from that of the spirit beings.  And when God is all in all, I tend to think we will continue to retain this uniqueness that is set apart from  the angels.  I don't think on these things to puff myself up, but to make sense of the depths of suffering that is out there.....if we must face these horrible things we can have faith that it truly was worth it. 

Ray has also said, that everything that is happening is necessary.  Even the molesting of children is necessary.  We don't want it to be so, we are saddened that it is so.  But it nonetheless is necessary.  This is still really a hard one for me to embrace.  I know it is true.....but it's hard to accept.  And I don't imagine that angels are molesting each other...

 In the scripture that Kat posted (thank you Kat for compiling that!) we see that Jesus did not come to help the angels (Heb 2:16) and I imagine it's because they don't NEED help. Again, they do not have to go through what we are going through, therefore how could they end up in the same form/state/position that humans will be in? 

Hebrews 1:14 NLT
14  But angels are only servants. They are spirits sent from God to care for those who will receive salvation.

 
 So at the end of the day, I guess my initial question of whether or not angels have immortality was not really the center of where God would have me focus, but was more of a catalyst to reflecting on who we are and how we are precious in God's eyes.  And I love the fact that it brought out wonderful posts and insights that got me thinking even deeper.  Very cool. 

As far as 1 TIM 6:16, I think Josh and Jay made a lot of sense...thanks for your posts guys:

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This is how I understand the issue concerning where the Bible states that only God has immortality:

God is the source and author of life. Life inheres in Him. He doesn't derive it from anyone or anything else.
Rather, all of His created beings, whether they be angelic or human, receive life from Him, THE Source! So, whether the angels are immortal at present (which I believe they are) or when immortality is conferred to humans in the future, it still will be true that God ALONE is the ONLY one that possess immortality inasmuch as HE IS that life source. It is HIS possession which He grants as a GIFT to His creatures.

As far as the angels, look at what Jesus says here:

Luke 20:36  "nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

Also, Jesus Himself states that He has the same quality of life that God the Father has, with one major difference:

John 5:26  "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,

The Father is the Source of Christ's life as well.

God bless.

Jay
 

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Is it possible that 1 Tim.6:15-16 is a description/statement of ownership… as thought to say, God is the only one who has ownership of or is able to offer/give immortality?

Thanks everyone,
Peace and love to all,
Diana
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GODSown1

  • Guest
Re: If God alone has immortality.....
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2007, 09:47:19 PM »

Hi alL
      WelL I thort Id just say sumfing haha! Isnt its GODS will d@ matters n e way!? Or is it da Fact U just need 2 nO? haha!, so either way will it change ur View on our Heavenly! FATHER?, sorry! But! it was da Fact that nO one really answered ur Question I thort Id be safe & answer it for U like this lol!
                                                 muchLOVE!! Pera

ps. lol! I opened my Bible randomly & this Verse just popped out to mE!, JEREMIAH 32: 27, & Im not tryna b a smart a..! haha!
    Takecare!
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: If God alone has immortality.....
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2007, 12:19:26 AM »


Hi Pera,

I see you have made yourself right at home here  :)
It doesn't matter what we think, the Truth is the Truth.  But we do fellowship and when we share we grow in knowledge.  So we are studing what we have from Ray and growning in the knowledge of the Truth.

Col 2:2  that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ,
v. 3  in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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