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[Kat]

This is a section from Ray's paper on "How Hard is Getting Saved."
There was so much information in it but I decided to bring this part out.  It gives a clear message to the elect, and explains how the elect can understand Revelation.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3849.msg29185 -----------------------------

1 John 5:9-10 “If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater. For this is the witness of God which He has testified about His Son. He who believes on the Son of God (this is the Lord) has the witness in Himself. He who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he does not believe the record that God gave of His Son.” (In many bibles it will say, “he that believes not the TESTIMONY…” My margin says testimony)  “Because he believes not the testimony of the son of God, and this is the testimony that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He that has the Son, has life, and he that has not the Son of God, has not life. These things I’ve written unto you that you believe on the name of the Son of God.”

Now, "call upon the name of the Lord."  "if you call me Lord do what I say…"  "believe on the name of the Lord,"  “These things I have written that you believe on the name of the Lord, the Son of God!”  What do you do if you believe on the Lord?  What’s the problem with those who don’t? It says, if they don’t believe the “testimony” that God gave of His Son.  They don’t believe that! They won’t be in the Kingdom of God because they don’t believe the testimony that God gave of His Son!  What is that testimony?   (sighs) Get ready…

Revelation 1:1-2 “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to show unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John: Who bare record of the Word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ”

Those who do not believe the testimony that God gave of His Son, they are the ones who won’t be in the Kingdom of God. “For this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.” His testimony of His Son, and “These things were written that you believe on the name of the Lord.” And you’ve got to believe this testimony of Jesus Christ that His Father gave Him.
Now that’s not it’s own interpretation, remember? You have to match spiritual with spiritual. What is that testimony?  “The revelation of Jesus Christ which GOD gave onto Him….and He bare record of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ”  It’s the same words!
The Book of Revelation is the testimony of Jesus Christ!

Now, what are we going to do with all this?

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that reads, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein.
If you’re going to call upon the name of the Lord, you have to do what the Lord says. And in John we read that if you’re going to call upon the name of the Lord you’ve got to believe the testimony that His Father gave concerning Him.  And Revelation says, this is that testimony.  22 chapters.
John was so sad when they were going to open the seals of this book. Why was he so sad? Why would John be so sad about that?

Revelation 5:2-4 KJV
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

Why would he cry? What’s so important about these seals that John would weep like a child? Because he just wrote, you’ve got to keep what’s in there! And now we can’t even open them.
That’s a catch-22. I’ve got to do what it says, but I don’t know what it says! Who can open this up? 
The Son of God, He can. This is His testimony, He knows how to open it. So He opens up the seven seals, and then there’s seven trumpets, and then there’s seven plagues.

(There is a large section that I left out here because of length, but it has a lot in it and would be worth it to read)

All these things take a lifetime. We’re going to live “the seals”. A third part of the men died: that’s a third part of the man in us that is going to die. A third part of the carnality. God works in increments, you see. He wipes out some of the trees, and then He burns the grass…what is the trees and the grass? These are all things in us. We have islands, and mountains, and trees, and grass. All of these are belief systems and ideas and doctrines and philosophies of life and all these things. And they are all going to be burned out and broken down and destroyed. All of those seven seals, seven trumpets, seven plagues: they are all things that must happen in our lives.

You say, “Well I don’t remember any trees being burned down…” First of all, you won’t even know some of it is happening until it’s over.
Some of you will remember, I have this in my Lake of Fire Series:  “And I was in the spirit on the Lord’s Day and I heard a voice BEHIND me as the voice of a trumpet and I turned to see the voice that spoke to me and being turned I saw…” (Rev. 1:10)  You won’t see some of these things until they are behind you. You’re going to have to look behind you to see where you came from, to see where God has been taking you. Some of us wouldn’t want to live tomorrow if we knew what was coming, you know. Be thankful that you don’t know everything that’s coming. Be thankful that you only have to take one day at a time. You don’t want to know what every day has to hold. Take it one day at a time as God presents it to you.

And there will come a time, when you can look behind you, as I can, and see where God’s been taking you all these years. You’ll see it plain as day. I could sit here for hours and tell you all about it. I can tell you about trees and grass and mountains coming down, I know what it means. It’s all one.  All this stuff . Are you getting it?  It’s all one thing.  Whether you believe on Christ, or enter the door of Christ, or call upon the name of Christ, or accept His grace through the faith of Christ…it’s all one thing.  It’s all Christ coming to you, living His life in you!

[skydreamers]

Hi Kathy,

Wow...that is so amazing...you pulled out the very section that I thought was so incredibly profound (not that all of it isn't also profound...).  But this very section has had me thinking for days now...I can't stop thinking about it!  Coincidence that you should bring this up?  I think not!  God is speaking to me through you.  Boy, when God wants you to learn something He just won't leave you alone about it...

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that reads, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein.

I've always sensed that there was something very important in this but for years I really had no idea what it meant.  I would think, "How do you "keep the things written therein"?   It's starting to open up to me now though, and especially after going through this talk of Ray's in great detail.  I feel like I'm finally starting to get it.  And because of that God is starting to give me flashbacks of my life and He is showing me which mountains have been removed.  He is starting to say to me...."Remember this grass and this tree....it's all gone....it's burned up!"  And I'm thinking, "Ya, wow, I never really fully realized it until now....how far I've come."

Of course, I also realize how very far I have to go.  But I am presently experiencing what Ray has said here:

 You say, “Well I don’t remember any trees being burned down…” First of all, you won’t even know some of it is happening until it’s over.
Some of you will remember, I have this in my Lake of Fire Series:  “And I was in the spirit on the Lord’s Day and I heard a voice BEHIND me as the voice of a trumpet and I turned to see the voice that spoke to me and being turned I saw…” (Rev. 1:10)  You won’t see some of these things until they are behind you. You’re going to have to look behind you to see where you came from, to see where God has been taking you.

For me, that is like WOW...that's happening to me RIGHT NOW!

It was such an incredible blessing for me to transcribe that audio, you just have no idea!  God wanted me to do it and so I did, and now I am fully beginning to understand why.  It was time for me to look behind me and see in great detail where the Lord has been working in my life. 

And it all came from me complaining to the Lord that I didn't feel like I was getting anywhere spiritually.  I kept praying to Him saying, "Lord, you're showing me all these truths but why am I not PROGRESSING in my life?"  And now it's like He's saying..."What?  Are you kidding me?  Look at this, this and this!" 

Yup, it's been super cool.

Peace,
Diana

[YellowStone]

Dianna,

I too share in your exuberasm

Thanks Kathy for posting this and Dianna, thank you once again for the transpiration of the audio. God is indeed working within this feeling. It is easy!!! to FEEL!!! 

Love to you both in Christ,
Your brother, Darren

[Deborah-Leigh]

Yes Diana

And what about our names being written into the Book of Life. The Book of Life IS Revelations and the revelations just keep on coming like that river flowing from the throne of God and the Lamb!....the river of life to our hearts and souls.

Diana I love how you write so seemingly easily and accessibly and tangibly in reach of understanding. See what I mean....I just can't do that so I really enjoy that you can! It helps me to see and it blesses me too!

I recall in my younger days that I yearned to be past my youth....now I have to become like a child...not again....but anew!...not childish but child like.....as one...THE ONE through much tribulation we enter His Kingdom. It completely makes sense.

What struck me in the book of Revelations Kat, is that the tree of life is given mention but the tree of the knowledge of good and evil appears no where per se but there are the seven plagues, viles and horses and a righteous man falls seven times....could this mean perhaps that it is over come in the last chapter of the book it says Rev 22 : 11 he that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. AND THEN....And behold I come quickly....where!...behind us ? NO...with the contrasts of good and evil, right and wrong, yes and no all overcome when we can turn the other cheek having the knowledege of good and evil as having been overcome out of the same root and tree all overcome and then the tree of LIFE ...THE ONE that is CHRIST comes with HIS reward......... the leaves for healing, the fresh spring of water for refreshment to all who can come to drink freely.l..the crown of life, the morning star and our names confessed by Jesus before His Father...(not all can or are written in the book...)

The Kingdom of God as we come to know we are inscribed into the palm of His hand...we can know we are in the Kingdom within and seated with Him in heavenly places within.....and all that remains is the culmination of that Kingdom appearing to the world!..when to the world He comes again in Judgement and wrath.

I feel like this is not the best way to articulate this....it is just a fragment...

1 Cor 2 : 9 But, on the contrary, as the Scripturesays, What eye has not seen and ear has not heard and has not entered into the heart of MAN (Oh Man...ref Ray's teaching Repentance part 2) all that God has prepared, made and keeps ready for those who love Him who hold Him in affectionate reverence, promptly obeying Him and gratefully recognizing the benefits He has bestowed. 10. Yet to us, God has unveiled and revealed them by and through His Spirit...

Peace to you

Arcturus

[GODSown1]

Hi Kat,
        um! please forgive my dumbness! lol!, But! this is where I dont understand what Ray is saying when he says all !man will make it into the Kingdom of GOD, or all man will be saved Im not sure whats the difference if any, as Ive just read from your writingss on the 'Testimony' that GOD gave His Son, you write 'Those that do NOT! believe the testimony that GOD gave of His Son, they! are the ones who WONT! be in the Kingdom of GOD.        Please I ask yous Help me understand this fully.  muchLOVE! Pera
 much BLESSINGS! to yous all

[Kat]

Hi GODSown1,

That is a big question, you know that Ray has written numerous articles explaining this in great detail.
But I have found an email that kinda sums it all up for you now, so you can read about it when you have time.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1883.0.html -------------

Dear Wesley:

Man is mortal, so all mankind will and must die eventually. Even those "who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord will be changed. In that sense, their old flesh body dies.

But we must also spiritually die to ourselves WHILE WE ARE STILL ALIVE.  This only happens to those who are "baptized in Christ," not baptized into water. Those who are "crucified with Christ."  Those who are "begotten anew from above." Those who are made "a new creature," in the "Image of God's Son," etc.  In other words only God's chosen elect few will experience these things in this life and be resurrected to immortality with a spiritual body in the first resurrection., The rest of humanity which has died once PHYSICALLY,  will be resurrected in the second resurrection in which they too will have to spiritually die to their old carnal man and be made righteous (Isa. 26:9).

God be with you,
Ray
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[GODSown1]

Hey Kat;
           Just want to Thank You
  muchLOVE! & Peace be with You

[Kat]

Hi GODSown1,

I am always glad to be of help 
I have heard Ray recommend to start at the very top of his site and start reading, with the first article "You Fools! You Hypocrites! You Snakes!"  So if you have not read that one I would recommend it.
Here is the link.
http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Kat]

Rev 1:1  A Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to Him to declare to His servants things which must shortly come to pass. And He signified it by sending His angel to His servant John,
v. 2  who bore record of the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ and of all the things that he saw.

Rev 19:10  And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

1Co 1:5  that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge,
v. 6  even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you,
v. 7  so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,
v. 8  who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This testimony of Jesus Christ, this spirit of prophecy, which is the Revelation of Jesus Christ as verse 6 says is confirmed in you, the elect.  So this is Christ in you, if the testimony of Christ is in you then you know Him , you obey Him, which will be evident by your fruit.

Joh 15:4  Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

Something interesting was in Rev 19:10  "And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus."

This is the same angel from Rev 17:1  "And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials came and talked with me,"
This angel says he is a "fellow servant, and of the brethren who have the testimony of Jesus."
I was just wondering about this, as it says there are angels that are of the elect. 
Could there be chosen angels, just like the chosen humans  
So then the ones with Satan would not be chosen, at this time and are the ones to be judged

1Tim 5:21  I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality.

I noticed this scripture and was wondering about it too, is it the second witness to Rev. 19:10?  It does not seem like Paul would call the brethren angels, as he doesn't any where else.
I have been searching for other scripture that indicate this, and have not found any.
Has anyone else noticed this before  

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Kat & all,

Reading that verse from the King James seems to imply one thing but reading it from Rotherham's implies something different.

Rev. 19:10 (Rotherham's) And I fell down at his feet, to do him homage; and he saith unto me- See! [thou do it] not! A fellow servant am I of thee and thy brethren who have the witness of Jesus: unto God do homage!

I am reading this as the angel declaring he is a servant of those who witness the testimony of Christ (apostles, elect), not that he is one of them/us although angels are servants of God as well, just in a different capacity.

Since we are the creation that is being formed through the dust (flesh) of the earth we are more closely associated with Christ (flesh & spirit) and His journey than angels who are (only) spirit, we (flesh & spirit) like Christ have the experience of literally dying to the flesh that spiritual beings can only observe (1Peter 1:12), they may indeed have carnality or imperfections burned out of them at judgement but God planned for the eventuality of Sons and Daughters who will be like Christ (1John 3:2). The angels never having experienced this are actually on the outside looking in, presently they are more powerful than the Sons and Daughters of the Kingdom but that will not always be the case.

The elect Son's and Daughters will hold a higher office;

1Co 6:3  Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

My feeling is that the angels are not subject to us (yet) but are subject to the Father and Son, when we come of full age and maturity that will change. Like a servant is not subject to the whims of the child of a master until that child has matured and the Master grants that authority. Until that happens the servant will always act in the best interests of the child according to the instruction of the master.

The Sonship/servant role takes prayerful study and meditation but Christ is, was, will be our example in all things and He filled that dual role perfectly.

His Peace to you,

Joe

[Kat]

Hi Joe,

I am in agreement with you on all the points you made 

Indeed what Christ is working in the human race through our life experience and judgment to become sons and daughters of the Father, is far greater than what the angels can obtain to. 

But in the spiritual realm aren't there ranks of angels?  Those that serve Christ and as in Rev. 19:10, "...A fellow servant..." maybe those angels will have no need of the judgment.  In Rev. 14:10 there is mention of "...the holy angels..."  and in Rev. 15:6 there are angels "...clothed in pure and white linen..."  Now maybe this in some way is referring to the actual elect, but it does not appear so.  The holy angels surely will continue in the serve of Christ, even when the elect are resurrected, so maybe they will also serve the elect as well, but just a thought.
There are sinning angels as in 2Petere 2:4  "For if God did not spare sinning angels..." and in Rev. 12:7 "...the dragon and his angels..." verse 9 "... the old serpent called Devil, and Satan...and his angels..." 
So maybe the sinnnig angels are the ones to be judged and the holy angels surely will not need judging.
But anyway this is all just speculation, I just thought it was interesting 

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

Two things come up for me reading your posts Joe and Kat and just to add on to what you both have shared most thankfully.

1 Cor 14 : 3…the one who prophesies, who interprets the divine will and purpose in inspired preaching and teaching speaks to men for their up building and constructive spiritual progress and encouragement and consolation.

So prophesy is something we do and it is also an office and gift from Christ.

Eph 4 : 11 And He gave some, apostles; and some PROPHETS and some evangelists; and some pastors and teachers.

And Joe in line with what you have offered…

Heb 1 : 14 Are not the angels all ministering spirits, servants sent out in the service of God for the assistance of those who are to inherit salvation? (Amplified)

Heb 1 : 14 Isn’t it obvious that all angels are sent to help out with those lined up to receive salvation?( Message)

I believe that this is the match for Rev 19 : 10 perhaps hey Kat.

Peace to you

Arcturus

 

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Kat,

It is an interesting study for sure, like I said in a previous thread I do not have a real handle on the messenger/angel mystery or if only the "angels" of the devil will be purged.

1Co 15:28  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him that God may be all in all.

Are there angels now that are truly, completely and totally perfect? If not what are they lacking, what will in fact perfect them. Will they learn perfection through the lives of Christ and the elect? These are questions I presently do not have answers for but I find interesting to think about.

His Peace to you Sister,

Joe

[Kat]

Hi Arcturus,

Heb 1 : 14 Are not the angels all ministering spirits, servants sent out in the service of God for the assistance of those who are to inherit salvation? (Amplified)

Yes that is a good scripture to add to this, concerning the angels, I guess they are our assistances.  That is interesting, they maybe are working with us a lot and we just can not preceive it.

Yes Joe there are lots of things we don't know about them 

I am just looking at scripture about all these heavenly being, they certainly play a big role in Revelation, I would just like to come to a better understanding of them.  
Thanks for the input  

mercy, peace, and love
Kat  

[Deborah-Leigh]

Kat

I enjoyed the study you did.

You brought this part to light for me : This is the same angel from Rev 17:1  "And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials came and talked with me,"

Don't you think that this shows all is opperated by God and God is ONE. It is all ONE...like here is this Angel TALKING to us and yet to others the Angel brings havoc!

Could this be a match do you think?

2 Cor 2 : 15,16 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: 16. To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life.

I am enjoying this bilble study.........

Peace to you

Arcturus

[Kat]

Hi Arcturus,

I had to think about this spiritual match for awhile, but I think I get it now 

The angels with the 7 vials that caused such misery through chapter 16 of Revlation, yet it says in Rev. 19:10 " I am your fellow servant,"  So at the same time it was doing the will of the Father in both causing misery and serving the elect.

2 Cor 2 : 15,16 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: 16. To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life.

This scripture was hard for me to get it at first.  But I'm thinking it is saying that at the same time that we are a sweet savour to God as to being brought to the life given us in Christ now, then to the life immortal at the resurrection, thus life unto life.  And at the same time the rest of humanity are dead in their sins and will face the second death, thus death unto death.

So if that is what that scripture means than I do see the match.  As you say, it is all ONE, and we can see that all through the scripture if we understand it.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Redbird]

To add to your wonderful conversation;

Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Luke 20:35  But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

36:  Neither can they die any more, for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Love, Lisa

[Kat]

Hi Lisa,

As I was thinking of the scripture that you brought up about the angels never marrying.
This makes you wonder why, that angels have no need for marriage?  Wouldn't it be because they do not have genders, so they do not reproduce and neither so neither would they have sex. 
Which will be the case of humans when they are resurrected, I believe that is the point being made in these scripture.
The last scripture you gave was interesting;

Luke 20:36  for they cannot die any more, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

So this verse states, those in the resurrection will be immortal, because they will not die any more, and they are "equal to the angels."
That is an interesting phrase "equal to angel," and it is not used any where else in scripture.  Does that mean just in the aspect of immortality? 
Another mystery 

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Redbird]

Hi Kat,

As far as humans in the resurrection not marrying, I had thought maybe because the Body of Christ is considered
to be Jesus's bride, anything else, might be considered a type of adultery so to speak.  Symbolic of course.  You all had mentioned that angels are our assistants, and would not the elect also assist in the salvation of all.  Hence,
"as the angels".

What do you think?
Peace to you dear sister,

Lisa

[Kat]

Hi Redbird,

  You all had mentioned that angels are our assistants, and would not the elect also assist in the salvation of all.

The elect will jugde the world with Christ.

http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html -----------------------------

We read that all judgment has been given unto the Son, Jesus Christ. But Jesus is not the only Judge in that day. Here is where the manifested Sons and Daughters of God come into their most important role in the salvation of all mankind, all creation, and the entirety of the creation in both the heavens and the earth:

THE SAINTS SHALL JUDGE THE WORLD

The called and chosen were born to be Judges:

"Or are you not aware that the saints [the manifested Sons and Daughters of God] shall JUDGE THE WORLD? And if the world shall be judged by YOU, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?" (I Cor. 6:2).

"And I saw thrones and they sat upon them, and JUDGMENT was given unto them [the saints, the manifested Sons of God]…" (Rev. 20:4).

Every man will be judged and the Saints will do the judging:

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it: and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were JUDGED EVERY MAN according to their works" (Rev. 20:13).

JUDGES, LORDS, PRIESTS AND KINGS

The called and chosen were born to be Judges, Lords, Priests and Kings:

"If we suffer, we shall also REIGN with Him…" (II Tim. 2:12).

"And has made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall REIGN on the earth" (Rev. 5:10).

We are the church of the Living God, and what is the church in relation to Christ?

"And has put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be the Head over all things to the church, Which IS HIS BODY, the fullness of Him that fills all in all" (Eph. 1:22-23).

"For we are members of HIS BODY, OF his flesh, AND OF his bones… This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and THE CHURCH [the heavenly, not the carnal church]" (Eph. 5:30 & 32).

Whatever Christ does, WE DO ALSO, because we ARE HIS BODY! Yes, WE, the manifest Sons and Daughters of God, will JUDGE THE WORLD!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Since the elect will judge the world as the Lake of Fire, maybe the angels will assist in some way 

Mercy, peace, and love
Kat