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Author Topic: Are there any other Proofs about Christ and other Bible matters other than Bible  (Read 13760 times)

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Michele

  • Guest

I am on a quest for the Truth.  After being married to a complete athiest for nearly 20 years, and now a mother, I feel i have the responcibility to find out answers to so many questions about Jesus/God/the Bible etc....and I haven't the knowledge, only the Hope.  I realize that the whole of my "christianity" is based on Hope/Faith and the way I was raised.  And so as not appear as something I am not, there are days when I ask God "Are you there God/Jesus?  Is all of this True?" and then I feel utter guilt.  I truly pray to God nearly obsessively.  I ask Him to forgive me for not KNOWING that he is there.  Does that make me horrible?  Does everyone else here but me KNOW without any doubt ever whatsoever that God IS everthing I Hope He is? 

This world is so packed full of Anti-God sentiment....I guess that's ok because God's got it all under control, yes? and we cannot surprise Him. 
Every search I go on leads me to these people who are different than me in faith/hope...they either all say either God and Jesus /dead/non-existent/false/Myths OR the flipside of that coin is the others who preach vehemently about how everyone but them who Choose to believe are going to burn in hell for all eternity!  The non-believers (and they seem to be a majority to me)  are all saying the bible is a myth, and that God and JEsus are nothing more than more "gods" such as all the other "gods" of old greek myths.....and that Jesus was a real person but just a historical nut with a lot of kooky beliefs about himself.
I don't believe this and yet I have not a good answer as to why...and that's just not good enough!
I believe most days because I Want to belive and that's just not good enough!  Especially when I have a child to raise.  I can't say "Well honey I believe this cause it feels good to believe it! 
So what can I do?

This is the only place that I feel comfortable and happy and feel like I"m hearing what feels like the truth to me.

I have learned/am learning that GOD Drags us to Him...and not You choose Him......YES?
So, I've been told by Ray and others that my job is to just learn/teach in the course of things to teach my child about God/Jesus...but with all the questions going round my head and also questions that all the athiests of the world ask (including those in my immediate family)  that I have no good answers for...I am wondering if i need to find some "proofs" or as many proofs as actually exist in this world.

So are there any "Proofs" of the historical accuracy of the bible stories?
Archeological digs/scientific findings/ anything?

Seems like there ought to be something that would qualify? 
I feel like I'd be fighting a losing battle trying to convince the athiest members of my extended family about my beliefs...and other "Christians" have caused probably millions upon millions of people to try very hard to disprove God/JEsus/bible ....because of their misunderstandings of scriptures....  It's just so hard.

 I"ve come (or rather God's lead me) to the belief that my goal in life is not to convince others as much as it is to find the Answers for Myself and my own peace of mind and to find confidence on my own personal walk with God...and that's something that might make an impression on others...if God wills it.

If anybody knows of any serious books on the historical accuracy of the Bible scriptures...I'd be pleased to know them.


Thank you,
Michele



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Redbird

  • Guest

Good Morning Michelle,

When reading your post, I couldn't help but think of Thomas~

John 20:29-31

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed:  blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not wriitten in this book:

But these are written, that ye might believe that JESUS IS THE CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

My prayers are with you,
Lisa
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psalmsinger

  • Guest

There are historical books that do mention Christ.  The Archco Volume, Josephus, a letter supposedly written by Pontius Pilate describing Jesus, are some that I can think of from the secular viewpoint.  However, if the Lord God Almighty doesn't touch the heart and convince a person in the spirit, words written by man would do absolutely no good.  Men are very good at convincing others who think only in the flesh through books, artists, music, movies, of their own vile doctrines that have nothing to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ.  Do a quick google search of these titles and you might find excerpts. 

May God increase your faith,

Barbara
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andrevan

  • Guest

Hi Michelle

When it comes to the Holy Scriptures, the one test that proves it is not just made-up bedtime stories, is prophecy. There is no way that the prophecies of the Scriptures could be fulfilled against the massive mathematical odds, except by Divine intervention. That's a mathematical fact.
Also there are about two thousand New Testament manuscripts that are in remarkable agreement.

Secondly, Jesus is mentioned in documents outside of the Scriptures:

1. References to Jesus in the Jewish Talmud. The Tannaitic Period mentions the hanging (on a cross) of "Yeshu the Nazarene."
The miracles of Jesus and key historical facts are confirmed in the Jewish Talmud by the very people bent on stopping Him.

2. References to Jesus by the Jewish historian Josephus.

3. References to Jesus by the historian Tacitus.

4. Reference to Jesus by the historian Pliny the Younger.

5. References to Jesus by the historian Suetonius.

6. Reference to Jesus by the historian Phlegon.

7. Reference to Jesus by Lucian of Samosata.

Remember that it is by faith that we believe in God and His Son, not by sight or physical proof/evidence, although it is there if one digs a bit. Without faith it is impossible to please God.

It is also God that gives us that faith, it is a gift not given to the ALL in this age. Many (not all) are called, but... few are chosen, in this Age.

Also, you cannot convince anyone of the truth if God is not calling them at this time. It will be like coming up against a brick wall. We offer the truth/facts to them and then leave it to God to do the rest if it is in His will.

Three main areas that helped me get a firm foundation of understanding was: learning about the uniqueness of the Scriptures, the scientific fact that evolutionary mythology/religion is a hoax and Ray's material and how to use the Hebrew and Greek to check for errors in various bible translations.

The truths of God are not for everyone now, but all will come to a full knowledge of the truth in the next age/s to come.

This is all I can think of now, I'm sure others here will be able to help you out more, enjoy your journey for truth.

God's peace be with you.  :)
Andrevan.
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andrevan

  • Guest

Hi Michelle, me again :D.

One thing atheists do not realise is that they are just as religious as anyone else. Their religion is called Naturalism, "everything made itself by natural non-intelligent chance".

They have to believe this by faith, perhaps more faith than us, as there is no hard scientific evidence for their "everything made itself by natural chance". Everyone has a belief in their origins, but most probably are not even aware of this. Atheists worship "Mother Earth", they worship the creation instead of the Creator  ;D.

Ray explains the unscientific and ridiculous fable of evolution in his latest audio bible study (March). If life came about by UNintelligent random means, then WHY did it do this? How did it "know" to come about or as Ray mentions, how did an organism "know" that it needed an eye, when it didn't "know" that there was such a thing as an eye!
This can be used for all other things that "evolved" out of thin air.

God bless.

Andrevan.
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Chris R

  • Guest

  Does everyone else here but me KNOW without any doubt ever whatsoever that God IS everthing I Hope He is? 
Thank you,
Michele


Hello Michele

 The universe is way to complex to have just "happened" It was Created By God, of this i have no doubt... What is your hope?

Chris R
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rk12201960

  • Guest

Hi Michele.
I really haven't read any books on Jesus other than the bible.
I have seen on the History channel of evedence that Jesus was on earth, also there were many other subjects from the bible that were also brought out in facts that the bible is correct.

Try to log on to the history channel site and they might have titles on what you're looking for.  ;D
I hope this helps.
In Christ
Randy.
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gmik

  • Guest

Hi Hon.  Google early church history or early church fathers.  the Catholic Encyclopedia has some info also.  All the historians that
Andrevan mentioned can be googled.

There are but few writings that mention Julius Caesar, but there are literally thousands of papers and/or fragments about Jesus found on digs.

The Dead Sea Scrolls show us the dedication the scribes had to copying exactly everything down thru the ages, so we can pretty much trust the writings.

Pretty much tho it has to be just...FAITH..... I believe it. It will being easier telling your child about God than one who has to tell them about hell.

God Bless you and I will pray for you.  NEVER feel like you are the only one that has thought something or felt guilty...we all have!  You are not alone.  We love you!
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rrammfcitktturjsp

  • Guest

Michelle,

  Check out Jospephus who was  Jewish historian.  I know that there is other historical proof of Jesus outside the bible.

  I will PM you a book that can be a good starting place for you.

  Sincerely,




  Anne C. McGuire
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snorky

  • Guest

Speaking as someone who was an atheist (after being a Catholic from a Cahtolic-Protestant "mixed marriage") for about ten years in the 70s, but someone who never believed in (macro) evolution (there is abundant evidence of micro evolution...dog breeds, for instance), I can say that you need to check out St. Thomas Aquinas, who first proposed the theory of "first causes" among other proofs of God's existence: basically it says that everything, including the so-called "Big Bang" has to have had a cause (what do atheists-evolutionists say caused the Big Bang? They don't know, do they?), just like the formation of life out of the so-called "primordial soup" has to have a cause. Aquinas makes abundant and basically irrefutible proof that the first cause if God. But anyway...

...even professing to be an atheist for about ten years, a certain event happened during that time that convicnced me that a higher power was watching over me. A bunch of us atheists were driving to Canada in a car with bald tires during a severe storm...trucks were jacknifing everywhere, and sure enough we swerved all over the thruway, hit a guardrail, careened across the highway with oncoming traffic and never got hit...wound up in the island between the northbound and southbound traffic near Rome, NY. The first thing out of my mouth was, "Now why would God save a bunch of atheists?" therby acknowledging God's existence I though I said I didn't believe in Him! I guarantee you that the ONLY way "you" are going to convince them of God is to rely on God to do so, using you to do so. You simply won't be able to do this yourself.

Also, check out Pascal, Newton, and other great 16th and 17th century thinkers. For them, the non-existence of God is a mathematical impossiblity! It is truly amazing (according to His Will) that today's "scientists" insist there is no God!

Deb aka snorky
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hebrewroots98

  • Guest

Dear Sister
Stay in the word!  Because, we have need of NO MAN to teach us, only the Holy Spirit!  That is the spirits' job...to teach fleshly and carnal humans things of the spirit; there is no other way to know spiritual matters, unless the Holy Spirit of God teaches you...but...THROUGH the Word of God (the bible).   
spend time in the word and more will be revealed to you, as well as on this forum and website!  Never give up finding answers to your spiritual questions!  This is the quest of my life, and my passion!  It is a great adventure and it is worth the time it takes to find the treasures (truths)!  (Most others will never find these truths that we have found!)  What a priviledge and honor and blessing it is to learn of HIM!  Thank You GOD for your Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirits' job is also to comfort us; Lord knows what all of us suffer through every day from being persecuted by others!

STAY IN THE WORD..(THY WORD IS TRUTH)

(NOTE MY SIGNOFF PHRASE ;))
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skydreamers

  • Guest

Hi Michelle,

I sympathize with your concerns and struggles.  While it is true that only the Spirit can teach us the truth, for someone who is first coming to Christ, sometimes the starting point is through the natural physical things of world.  It is seems only "natural" that our logical carnal minds want proof and evidence.  This may be how God initially "calls" someone to him depending on their personality.

Of course, I agree that if it is not their time, no amount of proof will convince them.

Years ago when I was longing to share Christ with my then fiance (now husband) I tried to use all sorts of material to appeal to his logic even though it was not logic itself that had brought ME to Christ.  (Strange eh?)

There was a book which did make an impact on him and convinced him of the proof of Christ's existence and that the scriptures are for real.  (I'm not sure if I can post it on here but you can PM me if you want to know what it is).  It was about the true story of an atheist journalist who decides to investigate the faith of his wife, who he greatly respected.  By the end of his investigative journey he became a believer.

The thing is, even though this book also convinced my husband that Jesus Christ is real, his spiritual journey somewhat "stalled" (for lack of a better word) since then.  He believes but does not pursue any kind of spiritual development.  Again, that's in God's hands, but at least I can be happy that he does believe.

Recently, especially after learning what I have at bibletruths, I have simply focused on being the best wife I can be, while patiently waiting from him the questions I long to hear....

1 Peter 3:15 NIV
But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect..

I'll be praying for you,
Peace,
Diana
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andrevan

  • Guest

Speaking as someone who was an atheist (after being a Catholic from a Cahtolic-Protestant "mixed marriage") for about ten years in the 70s, but someone who never believed in (macro) evolution (there is abundant evidence of micro evolution...dog breeds, for instance), I can say that you need to check out St. Thomas Aquinas, who first proposed the theory of "first causes" among other proofs of God's existence: basically it says that everything, including the so-called "Big Bang" has to have had a cause (what do atheists-evolutionists say caused the Big Bang? They don't know, do they?), just like the formation of life out of the so-called "primordial soup" has to have a cause. Aquinas makes abundant and basically irrefutible proof that the first cause if God. But anyway...

God is the first cause, however, science refutes the Big Bang hypothesis, it would have to had broken the laws of physics to actually occur. Also, the sequence of cosmological (big bang) evolution contradicts how God actually created: the earth first, then vegetation, then only the other planets including the moon and sun. Evolutionists have the stars (suns) first, then planets (earth), then only life on earth. We therefore should throw off every secular world view of our origins.
I'm intrigued how you were an atheist but never believed in macro-evolution, what were your thoughts as to where everything came from?  ;D

Quote
...even professing to be an atheist for about ten years, a certain event happened during that time that convicnced me that a higher power was watching over me. A bunch of us atheists were driving to Canada in a car with bald tires during a severe storm...trucks were jacknifing everywhere, and sure enough we swerved all over the thruway, hit a guardrail, careened across the highway with oncoming traffic and never got hit...wound up in the island between the northbound and southbound traffic near Rome, NY. The first thing out of my mouth was, "Now why would God save a bunch of atheists?" therby acknowledging God's existence I though I said I didn't believe in Him! I guarantee you that the ONLY way "you" are going to convince them of God is to rely on God to do so, using you to do so. You simply won't be able to do this yourself.

I love the way God called you out of atheism through those freakish events, by His grace you're here today sharing with us  :).

Quote
Also, check out Pascal, Newton, and other great 16th and 17th century thinkers. For them, the non-existence of God is a mathematical impossiblity! It is truly amazing (according to His Will) that today's "scientists" insist there is no God!

Deb aka snorky
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TimothyVI

  • Guest

Hi Andrevan,

You said “God is the first cause, however, science refutes the Big Bang hypothesis, it would have to had broken the laws of physics to actually occur. Also, the sequence of cosmological (big bang) evolution contradicts how God actually created: the earth first, then vegetation, then only the other planets including the moon and sun. Evolutionists have the stars (suns) first, then planets (earth), then only life on earth. We therefore should throw off every secular world view of our origins.
I'm intrigued how you were an atheist but never believed in macro-evolution, what were your thoughts as to where everything came from?”  ;D

I have often pondered how the scientific theories about the beginning could be right and still not conradict the Genesis
version of creation. I actually see no contradiction, even if the big bang theory is correct.
To begin with, God created the laws of physics, is there any reason that he could not defy them if He chose?
Jesus rising after death defies our physical laws. God exists outside of time, that is why He knows the future in spite of
our freedom of choice. That defies physics.

But as to the order of creation. Genesis 1:1 says that God created the heavens and the earth.
The heavens are everything else out there. The entire universe with all of the galaxies, all of the other other solar systems plus the earth.
Our sun is just a dying star, so He placed the moon and the dying star so as to create light in the darkness.

It all still fits for me Andrevan, even if the scientists somehow prove that the universe started
with a big bang.  If not, then whatever they do find to be true, if in fact God ever wants for us to know, will have to fit as well.
If it is in fact correct.
Praise God! ;D

Tim
« Last Edit: March 29, 2007, 02:35:34 PM by TimothyVI »
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Nancy

  • Guest
Michelle, me too!
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2007, 06:25:19 PM »

Hi there Michelle and all,

I have been having doubts about my faith aswell.  I want a faith that belongs to me and not on my predecessors or society. Built on a solid rock not on sand.

My thoughts go as follows:

For those who say that the bible is right because of prophecy, well what prophecy is that?  We don't know when the Old Testament was finally penned down, so some narration could have been written AFTER the event happened.  And talking of Jesus' birth, etc, it doesn't take a diploma in rocket science to suppose that the writers of the gospels, narrated them to fit certain prophecies in the Old Testament to suit their agenda that Christ had a virgin birth, etc.  We just don't know.

Don't get me wrong. I don't like these thoughts that i have but i have them because i am human.  I don't feel guilty though, Michelle because i know that God can take them and God knows i have them before i do.  I just feel that sometimes i will give up my faith in Christ and turn to Buddhism or some other faith. 

There are some things that put me off christendom, because if i told a
christian that i
mediated, they would immediately think of a new age religion or Buddhism and say that they'll pray for me.

Jesus to me seems a distant figure sometimes.  To glibly say that He died for my sins, sometimes doesn't make sense or when christians say, Believe in Jesus, what does that mean exactly?

Maybe i want a grown-up faith not a childish version that christendom preaches!
This probably will make you feel worse Michelle but this is how i feel too so you are not alone.  God probably loves your honesty, He knows you better than you know yourself.

God bless
Nancy




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Prosizz

  • Guest

Nancy, What I am a bit confused about is you said you feel sometime like turning other faiths like buddhism. Ok what hope does buddhism gives you or other faiths that is better that the hope of Christian faith? Is buddha real?
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Redbird

  • Guest

Hi Nancy and Michelle,

I see you both are having doubts about Jesus and looking to other books for proof and as Nancy related, possibly other faiths.  My question is, have you all read what Jesus has to say to you.  Mainly the four gospels in the bible, for now.  To have faith in someone, you must have a relationship with them first.  Hear what HE has to say......does JESUS speak to your heart?  I'm not talking about other Christians or even myself. Are you judging your faith by what you have learned from others rather than the author himself?  I say this in love, because it saddens me when I see persons lead astray by outside influences.

Blessings in your quest,
Lisa
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andrevan

  • Guest

Hi Andrevan,

You said “God is the first cause, however, science refutes the Big Bang hypothesis, it would have to had broken the laws of physics to actually occur. Also, the sequence of cosmological (big bang) evolution contradicts how God actually created: the earth first, then vegetation, then only the other planets including the moon and sun. Evolutionists have the stars (suns) first, then planets (earth), then only life on earth. We therefore should throw off every secular world view of our origins.
I'm intrigued how you were an atheist but never believed in macro-evolution, what were your thoughts as to where everything came from?”  ;D

I have often pondered how the scientific theories about the beginning could be right and still not conradict the Genesis
version of creation. I actually see no contradiction, even if the big bang theory is correct.
To begin with, God created the laws of physics, is there any reason that he could not defy them if He chose?
Jesus rising after death defies our physical laws. God exists outside of time, that is why He knows the future in spite of
our freedom of choice. That defies physics.

But as to the order of creation. Genesis 1:1 says that God created the heavens and the earth.
The heavens are everything else out there. The entire universe with all of the galaxies, all of the other other solar systems plus the earth.
Our sun is just a dying star, so He placed the moon and the dying star so as to create light in the darkness.

It all still fits for me Andrevan, even if the scientists somehow prove that the universe started
with a big bang.  If not, then whatever they do find to be true, if in fact God ever wants for us to know, will have to fit as well.
If it is in fact correct.
Praise God! ;D

Tim


Hi Tim

I understand the points you raised, they are good ones. However, the Big Bang has its origin in secular philosophy masquerading as science. God has already told us how He created everything. Gen 1:1 is not a contradiction of Gen 1:2. Gen 1:1 is not in sequential order, it is an introduction which is explained in detail in the sequential order of Gen 1:2-31. God created light before He created our sun or moon, notice Gen 1:16, the stars (from earth's perspective): the rest of the cosmos after earth. As Ray mentioned somewhere, everything in God's Word is important and in there for a reason.

The reason I mentioned the contradictions between the secular "creator's" and our Creator's versions was to show that we need to put God's Word first and believe it, and put man's (unscientific) opinions second. What can erode some Christian's faith is when Theologians place man's opinions on origins above God's account, such as false doctrines like Theistic Evolution do.

It is my opinion that God purposely created everything in the order (Gen 1:2-31) that He did, so that it would be contrary to man's "scientific" order and reasoning. The reason: His glory. :) Those people that think themselves wise (scientists/philosophers) are confounded and made to look foolish by God before men.

I don't think Jesus defies our (or His) physical laws. Our physical laws were written from only what we've observed and tested, however, there may be many more laws that we have yet to discover, if and when God furthers men's understanding. So when Jesus raised the dead and when God raised Him, I don't believe any laws of physics were broken, God merely exercised laws that we have no idea of at this time.

Anyway, I've rambled on enough and I admit my understanding is severely limited, and you raised some valid points, thanks.

---

Nancy, you wrote: "For those who say that the bible is right because of prophecy, well what prophecy is that?  We don't know when the Old Testament was finally penned down, so some narration could have been written AFTER the event happened.  And talking of Jesus' birth, etc, it doesn't take a diploma in rocket science to suppose that the writers of the gospels, narrated them to fit certain prophecies in the Old Testament to suit their agenda that Christ had a virgin birth, etc.  We just don't know."

Actually, we do know, thousands of people have tried for many years to disprove those prophecies and prove the Scriptures to be a hoax... they've ALL failed! Many sound scholarly works have shown the fulfilled prophecies to be valid. I can recommend a book that helped me get a sound knowledge of the uniqueness of the Scriptures, I'll PM it to you and Michelle.

God's peace to you all. :)
Andrevan.
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Nancy

  • Guest
Prosizz!
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2007, 05:37:01 PM »

Hi there all and Prosizz,

The reason i mention Buddism, is because i don't particularly like the rules of other religions and it seems to be a free sort of faith, you meditate on your own and that's it. 

Sometimes the pressure of christianity gets to me.  When you tell people you are a christian, they immediately think that you should be perfect and that you are against everything.  For instance, people have said to me whilst in an argument concerning homosexuality,
 "Well you should be against it because you are a christian"!  I choose not to judge others on this or other matters, so i am not believed to be a good christian for that.
Or people think that you don't like a naughty joke now and again or that you are a fuddy duddy, etc.

I have spent my whole life being something i'm not because of my 'faith' and i am getting tired of it.  There are all the ought to's, you can't swear, or smoke or drink or dance or this or that, i'm tired of it all.  That's why i sometimes feel like running away from my faith.  Maybe i'm just ranting or telling God off or something.
Thanks for your replies
God bless
Nancy

 
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest

Michele

I notice that you received a lot of valuable support and out reaching empathy for your question and your post.

I was just wondering how much of Bible Truths you have read? If you have read it all, do you agree with it all? I have read it all and know I have to read it again and again and again and even then I will not have totally assimilated all its mysteries and deep truths of enlightenment.

I find that Jesus is veiled in mystery of which much is revealed here! He is concealed to the eyes of the worldly and He did not show up at King Herod's palace after He rose again and say "I told you so!"... 

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
« Last Edit: April 01, 2007, 06:12:26 PM by Arcturus »
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