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[Deborah-Leigh]

"As the first century AD drew to a close, the churches of Asia Minor were endangered by two foes, persecution and heresy, with heresy being by far the greater danger. The ascended Christ directed John, the aging apostle, to address this urgent situation Rev 1 : 17-19). these churches needed a renewed vision of God and a revelation of His glorious plans for their future.

It is fitting that Revelation comes last in the biblical canon, for it is the climax of all that has gone before as it foretells the ultimate fulfillment of God's efforts to redeem lost humanity.

John, beloved disciple, apostle, and elder ( Rev 1: 1,4,9: 22:. The reign of church fathers ALL CONFIRM John's authorship. The similarities of  vocabulary and literary style with John's other writings confirm it as well." Ref : Wilmington's Bible Handbook

" Revelation is the only bock of prophecy in the New Testament. It is the only book in the divine library that especially promises a blessing to those who read and hear. "Blessed" is a strong word. "Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy" is what the book of Revelation says of itself (Rev 1 : 3) but after reading the first chapters about the churches, and the last chapters describing heaven, not many of us read much in this book.

REVELATION PRESENTS A GLORIOUS, REIGNING CHRIST.  The Gospels present Him as a Saviour, One who came  to take the curse of sin, but in this last book we see no humiliation. In one way Revelation is the most remarkable book in the whole sacred canon. Revelation tells us about the reign of Christ on this earth that Satan wants to control. It tells of Christ's complete and eternal victory over Satan. It describes Satan's defeat and punishment, first for a thousand years, then eternally. It tells more about Satan's final doom than any other book. No wonder Satan doesn't want people to read it!....

Few people who have any imagination have not sat down and thought, I wonder how it would feel to be a king. But Christ says when He comes He will make us reign as kings Rev 1 : 6 )

Them "those who pierced Him" shall see Him Rev 1 : 7. Although that refers especially to the Jewish people, who at Christ's coming will turn to Him as a united people and be saved (Romans 11: 25-26), at the same time it means many others who have pierced Christ will see Him. Have YOU pierced Him?"
Ref : What the Bible is all about by Dr. Henrietta C. Mears

[DWIGHT]

I must agree with you that believe the Apostle John wrote both books.  But like Arcturus said, these things can lead to vain babbling and endless genealogies which benefit no one.  All scripture is God breathed, so regardless of who He breathed it through, it is still inspired by God.

With regard to the four beasts, and four and twenty elders being the twelve apostles and the twelve patriarchs, I don't think is a good argument that John was just observing and therefore was not the Apostle himself.  Remember that this is a book of symbols and as a result we need to look at it with spiritual eyes rather than just a physical story.  Listen to what the scriptures actually say about these four beasts and four and twenty elders....

"8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." Rev. 5:8-10.

All the Apostles and the patriarchs were Jews, but this clearly shows that these four beasts and four and twenty elders were redeemed out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.  These are the very elect of Christ not just four physical beasts or four and twenty physical people. Only the elect are kings and priests, and only the elect will reign on earth.

M_Oliver, you're right, everyone suffers in this life, and all are not God's elect.  But I don't think anyone here is claiming to be there as of yet.  Kat's original post has nothing to do with claiming to be God's elect.  She was merely giving us a little information on how the Apostles died.  Is there something that I missed in your post that causes you to doubt where WE are?  I'm only asking because you seem to be upset with us or some of us.  If I'm wrong, I apologize and please forgive me.

Your brother in Christ,

Dwight



 

[andrevan]

Thank you Kat for those facts about the apostle's deaths, and thank you Arcturus for your sobering comments. Endless nitpicking and loose speculation about the Word of God profits us nothing. God is able and has preserved His Scriptures for us, just as He wanted them to be, regardless of who wrote what book of His wonderful Word.

Peace of God to you all. May we all continue to grow in grace and knowledge.

Andrevan.

[M_Oliver]

M_Oliver, you're right, everyone suffers in this life, and all are not God's elect.  But I don't think anyone here is claiming to be there as of yet.  Kat's original post has nothing to do with claiming to be God's elect.  She was merely giving us a little information on how the Apostles died.  Is there something that I missed in your post that causes you to doubt where WE are?  I'm only asking because you seem to be upset with us or some of us.  If I'm wrong, I apologize and please forgive me.

Your brother in Christ,

Dwight

NO.  Not upset with anyone.  Another case of communicating via words instead of voice .  When I read Kats post it reminded me of something that I have thought over so many times before.  That is that these true followers suffered SO MUCH for their faith that it makes our trials look like chump change.  Why is that?  I know I can't speak for everyone so I don't mean to question anyone's severity of trials but I have never seen any documentation of anyone since them {Kats post} that has had to suffer like that personally.  Boiled in oil?  BEATEN to death?  Believe me, I am not asking for that to happen to any of us but why isn't there some kind of trail of this kind of treatment against those who God is forming into the elect through the generations since them?

I hope Arcturus was right {Matthew 20}.

Mark

 

[Redbird]

Mark,

You asked "why isn't there some kind of trail of this kind of treatment?". You are talking about the physical abuse they endured.  In this age, the offender would be put in jail.  So, I think the enemy is much more sly now.  ie.....more mental abuse.  Or haven't you noticed just how many people are on some kind of Dr. prescribed medication for everything from depression to bi-polar, to name a few.  Not to mention also, that medical records are highly confidential.

Peace to you, Lisa

[DWIGHT]

Hi Mark,

I see what you're saying now.  I was worried that one of us had offended you, but I know what you mean about the Apostles sufferings compared to ours.  Maybe that's why Paul said in "1Corinthians 4:9
For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men."

There probably were other sufferings after the first century, but so much of history has been lost due to wars, fires and such that we have no records.  And I certainly don't know what the future holds, but Paul did say, "2 Timothy 3:12
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution."  Just what kind...I don't know.

Much love brother,

Dwight

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello everyone

Our suffering is not in the literal boiling in oil or being thrown down a mud sistern but this does happen in our mental anxieties and the toll it takes on us is less explicit that in the days of Paul I believe.

Look at the rejection we have suffered. The ridicule and hostility for our understanding of the gospel of the good news. We are mentally flogged and beaten. Some of us cry. I did! Some of us feel the sting of rejection and some of us carry the scars of abuse. This abuse comes in the forms of the spiritual warefare against us in sexual mental and physical abuse. Every disease is an abuse against the diesease free body we will receive when Jesus returns. Every snarling hateful rejection we will rule with a rod of iron with our Lord in His Kingdom until every knee will bow. Today the judgement is on us and this is painful and it calls us to admonish, urge and encourage one another every day.

We face violence, crime and lawlessness at levels that are unprecedented. We are surrounded by blindness, profanity and harlotry.We have prison bars around us because the light of Christ is not welcome in the world. We suffer pine for and long for the return of Christ and this is not made visible by our righteousness and stand for Christ, but it is made visible to us through HIM opening our minds to understand HIS word and HIS call to us to become separate from those that do "not see fit to acknowledge God or approve of Him or consider Him worth the knowing..." Rom 1 : 28

Like Lisa says, our torment is not literally physical it is spiritually mental and not the less painful for those who suffer the pain and anxiety of loss through assult, pain through physical disease and in short, the battle against wickedness in high spiritual places.

For this our hope in heart and mind is to set our eyes on HIM our GOD of the old and new as HE brings us forward to meet HIM out of all our suffering to enter into HIS Kingdom.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[DWIGHT]

Arcturus,

You are so right...the sufferings are within, they are spiritual and there is spiritual warfare at all times.  The servant is not greater than his Lord.  If they persecuted me, they will persecute you.  As He is, so are we in this world.  Knowing that He is, was and will be, so are we.  It's not what happened in the past or what will happen in the future...it's now..in us.  For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time....it's all now...Jesus is now...the kingdom is now...and we are now.  Repent,for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.  Oh sister, that God will open our eyes and open our ears to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches now.  Thank you for sharing your insightful post.

Your brother,

Dwight     

[Redbird]

Arcturus,

That was so well said. Thank you my beautiful sister!

God be with us,
Lisa

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Dwight and Lisa

Thank you for your sweet thoughts of encouragement and love. They are mutual!

Dwight I believe you know what the Spirit is saying to the Churches now.   

HEAR Oh Israel, the Lord your God is ONE! Mark 12 : 29

As you have said, the doctrines of Hell, Free will and eternity bind together to shut us out of the Kingdom. Do they know how they do this? I doubt it! They reject seeing. They object to the truth. In objection and rejection they lock the door to the Kingdom to themselves and others.

Matt 23 : 13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders hypocrites! For you SHUT THE KINGDOM of heaven in men's faces: for YOU NEITHER ENTER YOURSELVES, NOR DO YOU ALLOW THOSE WHO ARE ABOUT TO GO IN TO DO SO.

This is what the Synagogues of Satan are doing.  We are touched by this revelation through the merits alone of Christ. We have this information and truth through the suffering of Calvary of our Lord. We are called.

Once we hear, then we believe then we trust and then we repent and then we come out of the past and the struggle for the future. NOW becomes our judgement everyday and NOW is where we find the rest of God and Christ that is being sought after here and there but never is to be found anywhere outside.  Behold, HE is nearer than hands or feet within as you point out Dwight and as the Scriptures bear witness.

HE will come again literally to the unsuspecting world.  He descended from Heaven and so too does He come again from the right hand of the Father to the world. For others he comes with the Father to supper with those who hear and open within as He knocks on the door of our hearts.

Heb 3 : 13 But instead warn, admonish, urge, and encourage one another every day, as long as it is called TODAY...

Heb 4 : 7 Again he sets a definite day, a new TODAY, and gives another opportunity of securing that rest saying through David after so long a time in the words already quoted, TODAY, if you would hear His voice and when you hear it, do not harden your hearts....

2 Cor 6 : 2 For He says, In the time of favour, of an assured welcome, I have listened to and heeded your call, and I have helped you on the day of deliverance, the day of salvation. Behold, NOW is truly the time for a gracious welcome and acceptance of you from God, behold, NOW is the day of salvation....

Isaiah 62: 2 your rightness and justice – not your own, but HIS ascribed to you....

Peace to you

Arcturus

[M_Oliver]

Hello MOliver

As far as I know there is no one who is Elect while still alive. The Elect are those found faithful unto death.

It sure seems that Paul refers to the colossians as though they already are...

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; (Colossians 3:12 KJVR)

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello MOliver

Yes it does seem that way!

If you look at Ephesians 1 : 3 May blessing be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ Who has blessed us in Christ with EVERY SPIRITUAL blessing in the heavenly realm 5, For He foreordained us to be adopted as His own ....7In Him we have redemption deliverance and salvation through His blood...11 In Him we also were made God's heritage and we obtained an inheritance...12...have been destined and APPOINTED to live for the praise of His glory....

It can also seem, or appear that the Ephesians were also elect   But I do not think that while they lived that they were elect. Even Paul did not consider himself elect but he ran his race to achieve and acquire the reward of election.

When Paul wrote to the Ephesians and Colosians he encouraged them and I think Paul saw their end as God also sees our end from the beginning. Our end too will be that we are perfected in Christ and will bear His image. In the end God will be all in All. That end had not yet come when Paul was writing about it in his letters and not until Christ returns and the resurrection begins will election begin. Then the elect will be raised elect and the lost will be raised to the White Throne Judgement to be purified, corrected and reestablished in reconciliation to God.

As for now, and then in the past and during the times behind us, non have been resurrected yet!  As I understand it Christ has not yet begun His Glorious Reign on earth. Therefore non are born again, non are yet saved and non are yet elect. Many are called but few will be chosen. Some, not all are stamped with the seal of the  Holy Spirit.

Eph 1 : 14 That Spirit is the guarantee of our inheritance, the first fruits, the pledge and foretaste, the down payment on our heritage in ANTICIPATION of it s full redemption and our acquiring COMPLETE POSSESSION OF IT - to the praise of His glory.

Our election is future when Christ returns. The future elect are in judgement now and are living the life of Christ as His testimony to the world. It is all about Him not us.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[Redbird]

It also seems to me that Jesus does indeed reign on the earth also;

Mathew 28:18  And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Eph 1 20-21  Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

Col 1 16-19  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisiable, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:  all things were created by him, and for him:  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist:  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Revelation 1 5-6  And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithfull witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth, unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood;

He is in my eyes, THE KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS

Peace and Mercy, Lisa

[M_Oliver]

Thanks Arcturus, I understand what you mean.  I also want to thank you for leading me to Matthew 20 regarding my earlier posts on why we are not facing trials as physically severe as the Apostles.  That "workers in the vineyard" parable explains so much.  I found another neat little treasure later in the chapter that I never caught before.  Praise God for the Rotherham translation and e-sword.  Verse 28:

Just as, the Son of Man, came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom instead of many. (Matthew 20:28 Rotherham)

Most translations render this "for" many.  Reading it as "instead" of many makes complete sense.  By saying "instead" of many it leaves open that a few would also have to lay down their lives for Him.  To me it is a spiritual match with the parable...especially verse 28...

These last, one hour, wrought, and thou hast made them, equal unto us, who have borne the burden of the day, and the scorching heat. (Matthew 20:12 Rotherham)

Mark

[hillsbororiver]

This has been a very interesting and edifying thread, I just want to add another thought here. Even though we all hope to be one body and one spiritual nation in our Lord He does deal with each and every one of us on a One on one basis. It is all His call, like Jesus said to Peter in regard to the apostle John I believe it is not for us to compare trials and tribulations with each other or to put the apostles on a pedestal because of how the Lord used them. I do not recall anything written on how any of them were brought kicking and screaming to their deaths, they had been spiritually strengthened and prepared for the day of their deaths and all appeared to see it as an honor and not a burden.
 

 John 21

18Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

 19This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

 20Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?

 21Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?

 22Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

 23Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

 24This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.

 25And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[Deborah-Leigh]

That really is a FIND Mark.

Thank you for sharing!

Peace to you

Arcturus

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Joe

You noted :  I do not recall anything written on how any of them were brought kicking and screaming to their deaths,

Yes. How true. Paul even chose to return to Rome after he was warned of his fate there. We are all caused to be chosen are we not.

You are so right I think to warn us all against comparisons! Thank you

Peace to you

Arcturus

[M_Oliver]

I agree Joe.  Very well said.  But you know as well as I do that God put that thought in me so it could get worked out and it did so beautifully .  I see it much clearer now.  No offense ever intended.  Thank you all for the help.

Mark

 

[aqrinc]

Thanks Arcturus, I understand what you mean.  I also want to thank you for leading me to Matthew 20 regarding my earlier posts on why we are not facing trials as physically severe as the Apostles.  That "workers in the vineyard" parable explains so much.  I found another neat little treasure later in the chapter that I never caught before.  Praise God for the Rotherham translation and e-sword.  Verse 28:

Just as, the Son of Man, came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom instead of many. (Matthew 20:28 Rotherham)

Most translations render this "for" many.  Reading it as "instead" of many makes complete sense.  By saying "instead" of many it leaves open that a few would also have to lay down their lives for Him.  To me it is a spiritual match with the parable...especially verse 28...

These last, one hour, wrought, and thou hast made them, equal unto us, who have borne the burden of the day, and the scorching heat. (Matthew 20:12 Rotherham)

Mark

I agree Joe.  Very well said.  But you know as well as I do that God put that thought in me so it could get worked out and it did so beautifully .  I see it much clearer now.  No offense ever intended.  Thank you all for the help.

Mark

This is such an interesting and good study, i just have to bring it up. Such a large treasure chest in here that many times it feel like i am in the field; rather than rummaging in the chest, for ever more valuable pearls.

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread, It was very much worth reading for me today.

george .

[Ninny]

Yes, nice George! Thank you!!
Kathy