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How do we handle the hard truths?
DWIGHT:
Dear brother Darren,
That is a very sincere and genuine way to seek the truth. I really appreciate the way you feel and your desire to know the truth as we all do.
The pot just can't tell what the Potter's doing until the pot is finished. As Ray has said, the bible is one, and all the bible is one giant parable. Jesus....is.....was....and....will be.... He was the same in the Old Testament as He is in the New Testament. He has never changed. The kingdom of God is within you. It's in your spirit. His Spirit and our spirit are one. God is one and we all are one in Him.
To show us how He wants us to live and obey Him, He gave us the Old Testament as an example of what He would do in our lives to make us into His likeness. It is no secret, that in us, that is in our flesh, dwells no good thing. We have kings and beasts in us...we have principalities and powers and the rulers of the darkness of this world in our flesh. We have giants in the land in our flesh. We have armies that defy the living God in our flesh. We have every evil and imaginable idol in our hearts. God will drive out all of them from our flesh by leaving nothing that will breathe or have a chance to live. He will burn and grind it to powder until there is not one inhabitant of the land left.
Most of us still have a lot of these inhabitants left in us. I know I do. But God has not changed. Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever. This same loving, meek and humble Lord Jesus was the same in the Old Testament. All that He did in the Old Testament only looks bad from the flesh. Because the flesh or the carnal mind is enmity against God and it is not subject to the law of God because it is impossible. We cannot see what God was doing in the Old Testament with our flesh. Our flesh is the enemy of God. Those Jebusites, Amonites and Canaanites and all their wives and all their children are in us...in our flesh....and all the gods and idols that they worshipped are in us...in our flesh. And the land that they live on belongs to God and God will bring His Sword and fire out of His mouth to devour all of them.
The Old Testament may be a type but it's real in us. I hope this helps a little brother, I know that others can explain it much better than I, but Praise God we have Ray, who I think will explain alot more of this in Nashville. God bless you brother.
In Him,
Dwight
YellowStone:
Joe, as usual, you clear the smog that allows me to see.
Clearly, we were both seeing different things through different eyes. :) I seen less of the blaspheme than a hurt and somewhat angry brother, to be truthful, this saddened me. You of course had to see past this. :)
You and all of the mods are tasked with not only seeing through the eyes of the brethren but also through the eyes of the innocents and those seeking nothing but trouble. Of course, it takes only a spark to start a raging inferno.
You are so very right and I so humbly agree, that blasphemy should have no place in this forum. It was not the question but the intent. Although I always see this, it was not until your post that I finally got it.
I was focusing on the question and you and the mods were focusing on the good name of the forum and good works of Ray.
Thanks Joe.
Your brother in Christ,
Darren
Robin:
Thank you Dwight.
I agree and have experienced much of this and still have much to go. If I were to take my eyes off the spiritual meaning I would be tempted to think of this work as evil and torment. It is the very work of salvation. It is not pleasing to the flesh. It is suffering through fiery trials. It is the complete destruction of all that is within me that is not of God. This is why I loved Ray's teaching about being saved. It is the hardest thing any of us will ever do in all of eternity.
1 Peter 4
1Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
3For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
I think God gives his own answer in Deuteronomy 7 concerning the physical destruction of these nations in the old testament. I can't answer it any better than he did himself.
YellowStone:
Dwight my brother, I thank you for your thoughtful and timely post. :)
You mentioned that Jesus....is.....was....and....will be.... And of course this can be supportedwith Scripture. :)
Mal 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
You then added: :)
He was the same in the Old Testament as He is in the New Testament.
This is where the rubber begins to leave the road, because for the average reader seeking truth or something to blaspheme, the following four verses, two referencing Jehovah and two of Jesus Christ.
Jos 24:19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he [is] an holy God; he [is] a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.
Nah 1:2 God [is] jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and [is] furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth [wrath] for his enemies.
Here we see a jealous God and an unforgiving God. Jehovah God is said to be Furious and Revengence (naqam {naw-kam'}) 1413
And is given the following meaning:
1) to avenge, take vengeance, revenge, avenge oneself, be avenged, be punished
a) (Qal)
1) to avenge, take vengeance
2) to entertain revengeful feelings
b) (Niphal)
1) to avenge oneself
2) to suffer vengeance
c) (Piel) to avenge
d) (Hophal) to be avenged, vengeance be taken (for blood)
e) (Hithpael) to avenge oneself
This would seem to be in stark contrast to Jesus Christ
Jhn 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
1Ti 1:15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Here through Christs own words are told that he will not judge but rather to save the world. Not only the righteous but sinners as well.
Where at first we are told he will not "forgive your transgressions nor your sins" and then that "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners."
To the unlearned, this apparent contradiction would see insurmountable. :)
I know differently, but I truly have a hard time expressing this knowledge in words that convey intent. ???
Eggi posted the following Scripture and I am very grateful for it :)
Jer 32:42 For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.
Is there a simple answer that explains why? I think we would all agree that although the plan may not have changed, the focus certainly did.
Just some thoughts concerning an issue that is close to my heart.
Thank you my dear brother,
In Christ with Love,
Darren
Craig:
I'm tiring of this whole discussion, did anyone actually read what was asked? All these questions came from a site called evilbible. This forum is not here to promote any site that is full of lies and blasphamy. I will revisit the questions, I will not post all the was stated in these "questions"
1) Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
You can look up the post , it said God approved of what happened. I see nowhere in that scripture that said, God condoned it, but I do see where the evil of men, did do that. If you read a little further verse 25 it states "In those days there was no king in Israel. Every man did the right in his own eyes." MKJV
Sounds sort of like today huh?
2) Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
Clearly Moses and God approves of rape of virgins.
No God clearly didn't approve of this, God did tell Moses to destroy the Midianites and verse 31:16 states that God was angry that they saved the women. Moses is who told them to take the virgins, the only thing else attributed to God in these verses is that they were to purify themselves according to the law.
The rest sounds to me like the religious leaders were making it up as they went.
3) More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?
This one is a hard question for me. Times were tough back then, and wars were fought as God worked out the history of His people. When tribes were destroyed (to make room for the jews) The children and women were left alone. I think that God took care of them by having the israelites provide for them, else what would happen to them? I'll tell you what, they would have starved because there was no food, shelters or providers left to care for them. I think there is an even better answer to this question, but I can't find it right now. I will have to dig a little to get this out.
4) Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
On first look it would appear they are talking rape, but it is consensual sex. Read verse 25, it is definately talking about rape, if rape is to be also applied to verse 28 why would'nt the author use the same words?
Also Exodus (22:16-17, "And if a man lures a virgin who is not promised, and lies with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. 17 If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.") gives witness to the the example in verse 28.
5) Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24
The girl in this example is also not raped, it is consensual. Verses 25-26 will attest to this. Also the girl wouldn't be called evil if she hadn't participated in the sin.
6) David's Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God's "Forgiveness" (2 Samuel 12:11-14)
David was punished for the evil he did, and he was punished all the days of his life. His child was struck ill, the innocent child is God's, I'm sure God has/will take good care of him. Who are we to question God taking the child from David?
7) Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14)
Once again God approves of forcible rape.
There is nothing forceable here. If you are a women back thousands of years ago and the men of your family were killed, you wouldn't be able to survive on your own. If a member of the conquering army wanted you as a wife, provisions were made that you would live with the man (no sex) for a month and then if you were not compatible then you were free to leave. The man had no claim to you at all verse 14
8] Rape and the Spoils of War (Judges 5:30)
Has nothing to do with God saying to do this, the mother of Sisera was asking using a bit of sarcasm. v28-29
9) Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11)
The poster EB writer in this instance likes to call the maiden a "sex slave" She was sold as a maid or maidservant, probably not willfully on her part. But if the master becomes engaged to her. After this if he changes his mind then he will set her free, if she becomes engaged to his son then he will treat her as a daughter.
10) God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2)
God didn't assist anything. God let the people know what judgement was awaiting them because of what they did. Could God have stopped it? Sure, but they reaped what they sowed. And the evil of mankind did the rest.
A person could go into much more detail over these things, I won't. I have no need to question God in these matters as I know who my God is and trust his wisdom to work things out for the good. Ray has said pay attention to the words, that is what I tried to do (and I could be wrong.) I'm no teacher and don't claim to be, but questions are being raised that in my opinion is not even a question. The language and understanding from then to now is probably the only thing that causes any of us to stop and scratch our heads. And to give the EB folks any credence is a total waste of time IMO.
And I agree that we should not be judging the poster over this, they are obviously struggling now, but that is of God and nobody here can fix that.
I really want this thread to end now. These are tough questions to be answered but I'm not sure we are able to answer them all in this age. And we can only give our opinions anyway, I for one don't trust mine completely, but my spirit isn't fighting me on this either.
Blessings
Craig
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