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[Bradigans]

I was listening to a certain sermon today. The guy was refuting universal reconciliation. He used Noah and the ten souls that were saved out of the flood, and Lot and his family only that were saved out of Sodom and Gomorrha from the fire. Does anyone have any thoughts. But, he didn't mention 1 Corinthians 3:15 - If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. I believe this verse may have a lot to do with 1st and 2nd resurrections.

IN HIS LOVE,

Bradford

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Bradford,

All will eventually be saved but only His elect (Noah, Lot, etc.are examples or shadows) will be saved at the time of His return.

Christ and His chosen will then begin the task of harvesting the rest of mankind to God through the White Throne Judgement and the Lake of (spiritual) Fire.

All will be saved just not at the same time, or in the same season.

The churches teach that it is now or never but the scriptures teach differently, your quote of 1Cor 3:15 is a perfect example of His ultimate plan for all.

His Peace to you,

Joe

[humblebob]

Hi from Humble-Bob,

I'm sure you recall the ilustration Ray gives (I believe in his letter to James Kennedy) of "Suba," the teen-age girl before the judgment bar of God.  Assuming Suba had not been saved prior to her death, what would God have say to her at the final judgment, under the assumptions of universalism? I imagine the exchange might have been something like the following:

God: "Hello Suba, I have great news for you. Because of the intervention of my Son Jesus, I am able to save you, along with all other people, and give them eternal life in spite of their sins." 

Suba: "That is wonderful news. When can I expect to enter into the bliss of this salvation?"

God: "Well, that's a bit of an issue, you see, if you had been saved and been closer to God before your death, you could go straight into Heaven without delay, but since you did not receive Christ before your death, you have to go into a symbolic but very powerful refining fire, so that you can have alll your sins refined. Then after that you will go into Heaven. Your little child qualifies for immediate entry, by the way, and you will be able to join her later when your refining is complete."

Suba: "Well, okay, I have mixed reactions. That's not so bad overall, at least I will be able to see the light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak, and not be tormented forever. But how long will this refining process take?"

Okay, here is where my question enters. According to universalism, how long would Suba be in the refiner's fire? Would this depend on her exact sins? I believe Jesus mentioned that people go through different degrees of judgment depending on their personal sins. Do we have any idea how long this refinement will last? Will some be in the fire for 5 minutes, others for 5 trillion years? In general, how do you think God would answer Suba's question about her duration in the fire? This could be significant in terms of Suba's immediate outlook.

Granted, even 500 years of refining would of course be MUCH preferred to an eternity of punishment, but I could understand Suba having the joy of her salvation somewhat tempered if told that she will be in the lake of refining fire for 800,000 years.   

Blessings to all, Humble-Bob.

[eggi]

Interesting perspective.

The question has already been answered:

Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. (Mat 5:25-26 KJV)

800 000 years? Not so sure that any amount of sin would measure up to that duration. What is important is the purpose and the means by which we are cleansed. I believe that the worse sins we commit, the harder will the judgement be, because we will feel very sad and remorseful when we come to a knowledge of the truth. 800 000 years reminds me of the Indonesian Muslim style, 350 000 years in prison...

God is just, He won't punish anyone longer than what is required for that person to understand the error of his ways - and He won't require more than what is given:

And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. (Luk 12:47-48 KJV)

God bless you,
Eirik

[skydreamers]

Okay, here is where my question enters. According to universalism, how long would Suba be in the refiner's fire? Would this depend on her exact sins? I believe Jesus mentioned that people go through different degrees of judgment depending on their personal sins. Do we have any idea how long this refinement will last? Will some be in the fire for 5 minutes, others for 5 trillion years?

That's an interesting question   I'm not sure that we can really know the length of time, according to time as we understand it.  But here's something to consider.  God is able to take the Elect throughout refinement in the time it takes for them to live a life in the flesh....and since New Testament times how long is that?  100 years or so?  What's the average lifespan of today?  80-100 years? 

Personally, I find it unbearable some days contemplating that I may have yet another 40 years or so of struggling against the beast in this flesh....but I know, how ever many days God has in store for me, I can do all things through Him who strengthens me. 

Just some thoughts as I was thinking about your question....

Peace, Diana

[Kat]

Hi Bob,

No one will be saved in this life.

Mat 24:13  "But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved."

"Shall be saved," is yet a future event.

Little chilldren will not be in the first resurrection either.  You must first be called, to come to know Christ.  Then chosen and have your eyes open to the truth, and then remain faithful for the rest of your life.  

Rev 17:14  "These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful."

The faithful few are those in the first resurrection, this is the elect that will reign and rule with Christ.

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

These thrones tho symbolic are for the elect to judge the rest of mankind.  They along with Christ will be the Lake of fire.  

Heb 12:29  for our God is a consuming fire.

1John 3:2  Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when He appears we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is.

In Rev. 20:4 it says "reigned with Christ a thousand years."  

This thousand years is symbolic, and means how ever long it takes.

2Peter 3:8  "But forget not this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

This is the second resurrection it is an age where the whole world will be raised and judged.  They will give account and be purged and cleansed, according to what is needed to remove all of the fleshly carnal nature.  Then they will be taught the truth.

Luke 12:47  And that servant, who knew his lord's will, and made not ready, nor did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes;
v. 48  but he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. And to whomsoever much is given, of him shall much be required: and to whom they commit much, of him will they ask the more.

Think about the prophets of the OT and John the Baptist, I don't think it will take much for them to be brought into the kingdom.  But even they must come to recognize Christ's sacrifice, which came after their deaths.  I think that would be the few stripes.  
Now there are those who have hardened hearts to the point it will take a  long time and many stripes to purge and cleanse them.  But this is to last an age of time, and 2 peter gave a day to a thousand years, so that should be a good judge of how long it will last.
This is what I have come to understand about the first and second resurrections.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[YellowStone]

Hi Diana,

Sorry, but I must comment on something you wrote:

Personally, I find it unbearable some days contemplating that I may have yet another 40 years or so of struggling against the beast in this flesh....but I know, how ever many days God has in store for me, I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.  

Please let me share they way I see it.

Psa 23:1 The LORD [is] my shepherd; I shall not want.

Love in Christ,
Darren

Psa 23:2  He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

Psa 23:3  He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

Psa 23:4  Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou [art] with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

Psa 23:5  Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

Psa 23:6  Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

Diana, I am sure you have read the Scripture above a 1000 times. Do you see what I see?

God has so mercifully and graciously provided for us, by giving us:

• Protection
• Food, Shelter
• calmness and tranquillity
• leading us along the paths of rightousness
• keeps us safe through the valley of the shadow of deat
• provides comfort
• prepares a table
• anoints us and our cup fills to overflowing

All this that we too can know that goodness and mercy will be with us all of the days of our life, we need fear no evil or cast a worry. God has how back.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.  

If we put our Trust in God, we need not worry, fear or be anguished. Rather, let's walk with our head high and our hearts filled with love for God for all that he has provided us and know that the days ahead are going to be fine because God will be with us, no matter what happens.

Yes, you will be able to do all things, because he does strengthen you.

[gmik]

This is a great thread, started way back in April.  Bradigans, hope you are still reading, I think your answer is beginning to be answered.

When all the nations see the Lamb, they bow down, and worship Him.  It won't take more than a nano-second to look into the Lamb's eyes and repent. Didn't take much for Paul on the Damascus road. Is Pauls' life an example of "punishment by fire"?

Obviously, actual stripes are not what we are awaiting.  When you see Jesus and repent, why would there be a need for any kind of punishment?  Or do you see the Lamb after the LOF?

Eirik & Darren, good food for thought.

[pylady]

I recently listened to Ray's audio of June 3rd, "Saved By Grace Through Faith."
And have been thinking how this applies to the salvation of all mankind.   

Ephesians2:8  For by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God."

According to Ray grace is divine influence on our hearts.  And according to Eph2:8 this divine influence on our hearts is a gift from God.

Titus 2:11  "For the grace of God has appeared bringing salvation to ALL men."

So according to Titus 2:11 this same grace which has appeared with Christ Jesus and saves the elect also saves all mankind.

It seems like in the LOF where the majority of mankind will be saved it is God Himself who will influence each persons very heart to want to acknowledge, serve, love and be pleasing to Him.  As with each of us our purifying experience with our Creator is uniquely personal, so it seems it will be with every person among mankind in the LOF.  He knows each of us inside and out and knows exactly what experiences and how much time each one of us needs to be purified in His eyes.  Or, as Gina said He can do it in a nanosecond. 

A real eureka moment for me while reading the LOF series, was realizing that the Lake of Fire is not so much God's wrathful punishment of mankind for their disobedience.  But it is His judgments, His discipline with the purpose of teaching, chastening, and correcting mankind.  All to make us into His image. 

And to think He has given to some of mankind the wonderful priviledge to share in this strange work.  Who can believe it?  Yet He tells us it is so.

What an incomparable God we have!

With Christian love,

         Cindy

[humblebob]

From Humble-Bob:

Wow! Thanks to everyone for your thoughtful responses to the question about duration in the refiinng process.  I'm certainly much more enlightened than before. 

As I understand, God's elect will take part in the refining process of the world, as part of God's consuming fire of refinement (1 John 3.2). Perhaps this was in Paul's thought when he mentioned that the saints will one day judge the world (1 Corinthians 6.2-3).

When it was said of Jesus that "a smoldering (dimly burning) wick He will not quench, until He brings justice and a just cause to victory," perhaps this was in reference to His continuing the judgment of fire upon a person until he is completely refined. From a universalist perspective, this judgment of fire was probably in Jesus' mind when He said that "everyone shall be salted with fire."   

 

[skydreamers]

A real eureka moment for me while reading the LOF series, was realizing that the Lake of Fire is not so much God's wrathful punishment of mankind for their disobedience.  But it is His judgments, His discipline with the purpose of teaching, chastening, and correcting mankind.  All to make us into His image.

And to think He has given to some of mankind the wonderful priviledge to share in this strange work.  Who can believe it?Huh  Yet He tells us it is so.

What an incomparable God we have!

Amen to that Cindy!  Wonderfully said

Darren,

Thank you for your loving reminder and encouragement.  I do see what you are saying and you are so right.  This was a beautiful synopsis of Psalms 23:

God has so mercifully and graciously provided for us, by giving us:

    * Protection
    * Food, Shelter
    * calmness and tranquillity
    * leading us along the paths of rightousness
    * keeps us safe through the valley of the shadow of deat
    * provides comfort
    * prepares a table
    * anoints us and our cup fills to overflowing

I do, on most days, cling fast to this profound and comforting message.  But alas, I am prone to melancholy, and so on some days, I admittedly get weary of "fighting the good fight", much to my frustration. 

I know with all sincerity that I have such an incredible way to go, and the thought of this can be daunting.  But through your post, God has laid his chastening hand on me, for lacking the faith and trust in His faithfulness....

...so thank you, even though the "spanking" smarts, it is humbling, and that is what I need.

Peace,
Diana

[seminole]

No offense intended but I think all of this is a little too hard and complicated when it doesn't have to be. We are given our lives however long they will be, Jesus died for our sins, you get the years on this earth to reject him or not. The bible says we have to be like little children. To me that means that we accept the sacrifice and truth without having to know what eternity means whether your definition is timeless or aionian or whatever. Jesus did it to cover our sins and you believe and accept that or you don't. I do not believe that God would want His children to spend all their lives trying to figure out the years of cleansing, what judgement we will be in and all the rest. I know this will make some people mad and that is not my intention. It seems to me that people are getting all consumed by those things . We should be out here making a difference in this world. It just won't help any if I went up to a gang banger where I live and said let me explain aionian to you.

[Falconn003]

seminole WROTE:: No offense intended, 

No offense intended.

Now why would you WANT to go up too a gang banger and even try too explain aionian to him or her or them. 

What could you even remotly comprehend too accomplish by such a silly act  

And what, who , would even be the benefit of such a dumb risky act ??   

I would THINK you could accomplish more by trying to sit an alligator at a table and try teaching it to properly eat with a fork and Knife !! 

tisk..tisk..

Rodger

[DuluthGA]

True, yet no [?]  If this criminal were in the [Given] act of taking your life, you might want to tell him or her that you believe in the Living God, etc, whatever you could as your little light was being snuffed out [temporarily  ] ... [only to be raised to a spiritual body one fine day!  ]

Anyway.......  once again I think Darren presents some supremely beautiful thoughts regarding:  (paraphrased)

'His discipline for the purpose of teaching, chastising, and correcting mankind / (HIS CREATION.)'

More great comments and verses from Diana and a very good point from Seminole such as:

'I don't believe that God would want His children to spend all their lives trying to figure out the years of cleansing, what judgment will be in, etc., etc.'

I AGREE WITH YOU!  WHAT MAKES ME AGREE WITH YOU?

The fact that God turned Apostle Paul around from being the primere/foremost sinner (persecuting God's early church) in a matter of a few MOMENTS!!!

I wouldn't be too concerned about the time factor in turning around SUPREME SINNERS, thanks to this insight from Ray.

Take care, Caregiver

[eggi]

I couldn't agree less:

'I don't believe that God would want His children to spend all their lives trying to figure out the years of cleansing, what judgment will be in, etc., etc.'

Well, then maybe Paul was wrong in spending his life studying and learning about Jesus Christ? He didn't take any credit for it, but even so he admitted that he worked hard, trying to learn more than just the basics:

But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. (1Co 15:10 KJV)

Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; (Col 1:25 KJV)

To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily. (Col 1:27-29 KJV)

Surely, doctrine doesn't matter if you don't apply it and live by it, but you have to know what you should live by, right? The whole Bible is a witness about who Jesus Christ is, and HOW He is. We should also pay attention to details such as:

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord. (1Co 15:21-58 KJV)

Why all that technical stuff about ruling and celestial bodies? Why? Because it's not important? I doubt it.
It IS important, but why?

Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. (1Jn 4:17 KJV)

Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? (1Co 6:2-5 KJV)

I think we ought to take this seriously. How is judgment done? WHO does it? When does it happen?

God bless you,
Eirik

[Kat]

Hi Eirik,

I know what you mean.
People use the metaphor of God's plan being like a gaint puzzle.  That seems to be a good repersentation, but it would be a puzzle without edges, because it's continually growing, "...and of His kingdom there will be no end." (Luke 1:33)
 
I think we should strive to learn as much of God's plan as we can. 
Here is part of an email.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4711.0.html

We are to search out the hidden things of God:

        Pro 25:2--"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to SEARCH OUT [the hidden] a matter."

        Psa 51:6--"Behold, thou desires truth in the inward parts: and IN THE HIDDEN PART YOU SHALL MAKE ME KNOW wisdom."

        Isa 45:3 "And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and HIDDEN riches of secret places, THAT YOU MAY KNOW know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel."

        1Co 2:7 "But WE SPEAK [therefore we KNOW] the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the HIDDEN wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory."
----------------------------------------------------

Only God can reveal His mysteries to us, and He will put the desire in us to seek them too. 
As we continue to find puzzle pieces, we can begin to see the big picture of God's plan.  I think it is great to come upon an understanding that I did not previously have, another puzzle piece 

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[hillsbororiver]

No offense intended but I think all of this is a little too hard and complicated when it doesn't have to be. We are given our lives however long they will be, Jesus died for our sins, you get the years on this earth to reject him or not. The bible says we have to be like little children. To me that means that we accept the sacrifice and truth without having to know what eternity means whether your definition is timeless or aionian or whatever. Jesus did it to cover our sins and you believe and accept that or you don't. I do not believe that God would want His children to spend all their lives trying to figure out the years of cleansing, what judgement we will be in and all the rest. I know this will make some people mad and that is not my intention. It seems to me that people are getting all consumed by those things . We should be out here making a difference in this world. It just won't help any if I went up to a gang banger where I live and said let me explain aionian to you.

 Proverbs 2

 1My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;

 2So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;

 3Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;

 4If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;

 5Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.

 6For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.

 7He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to them that walk uprightly.

 8He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.

 9Then shalt thou understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; yea, every good path.

 10When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul;

 11Discretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee:

 12To deliver thee from the way of the evil man, from the man that speaketh froward things;

Seminole, seeking knowledge of His Word and Person (Godhead) and Plan (Salvation) for humanity is something we all as individuals should be doing no matter what certain "preachers" might say, when we stray into our own (or their own) "feelings" we will surely be led astray by our carnal hearts.

Isa 33:6  And wisdom and knowledge shall be the stability of thy times, and strength of salvation: the fear of the LORD is his treasure.

Col 1:10  That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;

2Pe 1:2  Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

2Pe 3:18  But grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever. Amen.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe


 

[Falconn003]

hiya Joe

W O N D E R F U L L Y    P U T !!!!

All these EASY STEPS (( they use analogies like KEYS aswell...ect )) to salvation, or to knowledge, or to the kingdom of God........or for what ever these steps lead too, is for the birds. (( ala....the parable of the farmer sowing seeds ))

Rodger

[Beloved]

My little brain does not follow you ?   

All these EASY STEPS (( they use analogies like KEYS aswell...ect )) to salvation, or to knowledge, or to the kingdom of God........or for what ever these steps lead too, is for the birds. (( ala....the parable of the farmer sowing seeds ))

Non sequator...What do mean .....is for the birds. I always see the birds and fowls of the air as something bad..they eat the seed etc

please Splain

Beloved

[seminole]

We do need to live our lives with the knowledge of Jesus Christ and how He teaches us to live. I don't have to understand years of cleansing and all that stuff. Somebody asked why I would go to a gang banger to try to explain u.r. or aionian. I said that to make the point that it would be foolish for me to do that. It would be fruitful for me to tell them about Jesus but not the other stuff. Why would I talk to a "criminal like a gang-banger" ; because that is what is in my neck of the woods. You can study all you want and get all the knowledge you can but what good does it do the world if that is all you are doing?