This has been an interesting disussion, but it is all beyond me, so I have stayed out of it
But I did want to bring forward what Ray has said on this topic, from his letter to John Hagee.
http://bible-truths.com/hagee1.htm ----------------------------------
When you boast, Mr. Hagee, saying that you found Christ all by yourself, you are telling your international audience that everyone else is, therefore, responsible for finding Christ "all by themselves." Charles Darwin taught "survival of the fittest," and you teach "salvation of the wisest." According to you, one must be wise enough to find Christ, accept Christ, and then qualify on his own to be saved.
This "bootstrap" mentality of self-qualification for salvation is nonsense, Mr. Hagee. But let me be more Scripturally "exact." Paul said he had many more reasons to have "confidence in his own flesh" than anyone. But when Christ called Paul (yes, Mr. Hagee, Christ called Paul - Paul did not find Christ "all by himself"), he said:
"Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but DUNG, that I may win Christ" (Phil. 3:
, King James Version.
There is a parallel between your teachings and the teachings of atheistic evolutionists. Those learned men who promulgate the hypothesis of evolution (I say "hypothesis," because there isn't any scientific proof that would elevate it to a "theory"), use the same authoritative language in their writings to prove the unprovable as you do. Surely (non-thinking people reason) since hundreds and thousands of learned scientists point to nature and science for their proof, then what they teach concerning evolution, must be true. And, surely (non-thinking Christians reason) since hundreds and thousands of learned clergymen point to the Holy Scriptures for their proof, then what they teach concerning Christ, must be true.
Mr. Hagee, you have about as much Scriptural proof that man must find God and qualify for salvation all on his own, as evolutionists have scientific proof that all the species evolved from the same ancestor, all on their own-NONE! You have about as much Scriptural proof that God is going to torture most of His children in the fires of a Hell for eternity, as evolutionists have scientific proof that life spontaneously generated itself from dead sea slime - NONE!
"Proof" is evidence that something is true. Just saying something isn't proof of its validity. One can say that since outdoor dogs grow longer hair during extended periods of cold weather, that they are "evolving long hair." Is that true? No. The ingenious mechanism that enables a dog to grow long hair in cold weather is already built into the dog's physiology - it is "evolving" nowhere.
One can say that animals "reproduce by evolving through thousands of stages of mutations." But, is that true? No. The laws of science prove and have proven, millions and billions of times, that animals reproduce just as the Scripture states: "after their kind." Yet millions believe these intellectual falsehoods, just as millions believe the theological falsehoods I have countered in this letter.
And just like evolutionists, Mr. Hagee, you say things that you claim are Scriptural, but are not. You teach that a man's soul has immortality. But is that true? No. There is NO scientific proof that man has an immortal soul. And the Scriptures plainly tell us that "Christ ONLY has immortality," and that "man is MORTAL."
You teach that "the dead" are actually "alive" in a different geographical location. Is that true? No. There is NO scientific evidence that dead people or dead animals are alive at a different geographical location. And the Scriptures plainly tell us that "death is sleep," with "no knowledge, no thoughts, not anything." This is in full agreement with what science knows about death. And yet, millions believe these theological lies So who are we to believe? Evolutionists or True Science? John Hagee or the Word of God?
Evolutionists deny the very scientific evidence that they study to supposedly prove their hypothesis. And you, Mr. Hagee, deny the very Scriptures you preach from in trying to persuade others of your theories. Most people do not know, actually, factually, and scientifically, what the hypothesis of evolution is based on, and most people have little knowledge of the Scriptures or how to study the Hebrew and Greek from which they were translated.
Give me just ninety minutes with any open-mined person of normal intelligence, and I will prove to him (scientifically), the fallacy of both spontaneous generation and evolution of the species from common ancestors. Give me ninety minutes with that same person and I will prove to him (Scripturally), the fallacy of your theories on Hell and all your false expressions that go with it.
Colin Patterson, a senior paleontologist at the British Natural History Museum, asked his audience of evolution experts a most telling question. He later posed the same question to the geology staff at the Field Museum of Natural History, and again to The Evolutionary Morphology Seminar at the University of Chicago. All evolution experts. Here was his question:
"Can you tell me anything you know about evolution, ANY ONE THING. . . that is TRUE?"
All he got was silence!
So, I likewise, Mr. Hagee, after going into the Hebrew and Greek meanings of many words, plus a mountain of Scriptural references, including the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich man, will now ask you: "Can you tell me anything about God's failure to save all humanity, or about most of God's children being tortured in a Hell fire for all eternity, that is TRUE? ... I'm waiting.
You teach a Godless Hell for the majority of mankind for all eternity. Do you even begin to understand the damage you cause by such unscriptural (not to mention anti Scriptural) teachings? This doctrine of eternal torment is now and has been, blaspheming the very name of God among the nations for hundreds of years!
Everywhere one turns today, he finds atheistic, Godless, evolution being taught. In the finest magazines like National Geographic. On all scientific and educational channels. The Learning Channel, the Discovery Channel. In virtually all public schools in America, Europe, and around the world. All major colleges and universities. Not as a theory, but as the FACT of evolution it is taught. Why? Where did this teaching come from? Who is condoning it?
Charles Darwin is the "father of evolution." Little improvement or changes have been made to his original premises regarding survival of the fittest or the origin of species. Darwin is the main man when it comes to evolution. Now, why did Charles Darwin reject God and start this global rebellion against God and His Word which continues unabated to this very day? Was it really "God" that Mr. Darwin was rebelling against, or the "Godless doctrines" of depraved men?
According to Gertrude Himmelfarb's biography of Darwin, "One of the passages which was deleted from the autobiography explained why Charles not only could not believe in Christianity but would not wish to believe in it. Citing the 'DAMNABLE DOCTRINE' that would condemn ALL DISBELIEVERS TO ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, he protested that 'this would include my Father, Brother, and almost ALL MY BEST FRIENDS' - which made it an unthinkable, to say nothing of thoroughly IMMORAL, idea. There may be more sophisticated reasons for disbelief, but there could hardly have been a more persuasive emotional one." (p. 22) (Emphasis mine).
The damnable unscriptural teaching of eternal torment (which you enthusiastically shout from your pulpit) has probably done more to cause the name of God to be blasphemed among the nations than any other false teaching on Earth, including the teaching of evolution.
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Hi Anne,
You ask if there was any written notes from the conference,
well there is a transcript of the first session, but that is all there is written out.
Here is the link to it
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1948.0.html mercy, peace, and love
Kat