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DWIGHT

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good and evil
« on: April 06, 2007, 02:53:16 PM »

 Good and Evil
on: Yesterday at 06:44:09 PM Quote Modify Remove  

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Hi everyone,

Lately I've been thinking about the tree of good and evil as it pertains to our own lives.  This tree has the same roots...both good and evil.  Ray has pointed out that we can never know life without knowing good and evil, because we never had anything to compare life with other than good and evil.  This tree is a type of the law, even so the law was not given until centuries later.  As the law was our schoolmaster, so is good and evil.  God teaches us from this good and evil in our own personal lives.  And if we can't learn by the good, He'll teach us by the evil.  God can turn our blessings into a curse, and He can turn our curse into blessings.  Most of Christianity thinks that wealth, health, strength and talent are blessings, and for sure they can be, but through disobedience they can become a curse.  Yet God takes pain, want, sorrow and death and turns what appears to be a curse into a blessing.  God has never changed, Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever.  This tree of the knowledge of good and evil is still relevant in our lives today.  If we don't learn one way, we will learn another way.  Just thinking out loud.

In Him,

Dwight
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mrsnacks

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Re: good and evil
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2007, 02:59:15 PM »

So why are we put here to learn this? On the surface this question may appear silly, but I just wanted to hear your comment. Why all this trouble we have to go through to learn ? Why is this necessary ? Thanks.
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PKnowler

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Re: good and evil
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2007, 04:16:45 PM »

This is an interesting subject.

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness,

Gen 2:9  And out of the earth the Lord made every tree to come, delighting the eye and good for food; and in the middle of the garden, the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Gen 2:16  And the Lord God gave the man orders, saying, You may freely take of the fruit of every tree of the garden:
Gen 2:17  But of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you may not take; for on the day when you take of it, death will certainly come to you.

Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

It was God's intention for them to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. It was a part of the process of them becoming like God in knowing good and evil. It is interesting that both the knowledge of good and evil comes from the same tree!

God doesn't want us eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil- it produces religion.
He wants us eating from the tree of life!

~Paula  :)

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DWIGHT

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Re: good and evil
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2007, 04:20:50 PM »

 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;  And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. Heb. 2:14-15

We were born in the bondage of sin whether we know it or not, and the wages of sin is death.  Satan has the power of death, so it is through His death and our death with Him that we destroy the devil.  This is God's purpose for us that through death we might know life.  "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit." Jn. 12:24

In Him,

Dwight


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YellowStone

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Re: good and evil
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2007, 05:06:04 PM »

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;  And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. Heb. 2:14-15

We were born in the bondage of sin whether we know it or not, and the wages of sin is death.  Satan has the power of death, so it is through His death and our death with Him that we destroy the devil.  This is God's purpose for us that through death we might know life.  "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit." Jn. 12:24

In Him,
Dwight

This is an interesting way to look at it Dwight. But I see nothing good being gained by fighting Satan at his own game. :)

1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Satan abhors life, he distains that our faith in God and His promise is unwaivering. Death has no hold on us.

Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Christ died so that we need never die.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

So I really do not think that "we help" in any way bringing about the death of Satan by our death, but rather by our life. :)

Some of us may actually never "sleep"

1Cr 15:51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

I think I know what you are saying Dwight, but I am not going to take any credit for it. The Ransom was paid by Christ and Satan knows it. :)

One final point, God does not take away blessings in order to curse us; it is only carnal man who would think such thoughts. :) For I am sure the flower does not feel cursed when its glory and beauty begins to fade and wither. Neither should we; rather we should rejoice in the blessings we were given and thankful for that was learned. Seasons change, as will circumstances, yet God is with us still.

Rom 5:3 And not only [so], but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

Please do not think I am picking on you brother Dwight, I merely wanted to offer another way of looking at all you said.

Love in Chrit,
Your brother,
Darren
« Last Edit: April 06, 2007, 05:07:46 PM by YellowStone »
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DWIGHT

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Re: good and evil
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2007, 09:24:15 PM »

Hi Darren,

You said, "This is an interesting way to look at it Dwight. But I see nothing good being gained by fighting Satan at his own game."

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Eph. 6:12  Darren I know what you mean, but we are in a spiritual battle day by day.

Then you say, "Christ died so that we need never die."

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Gal. 2:20

"....I die daily." I Cor. 15:31.  Darren, this is exactly what Christianity teaches that Christ died that we don't have to die.  But as he is so are we in this world.  We must die to the flesh...daily.

Then you say,"So I really do not think that "we help" in any way bringing about the death of Satan by our death, but rather by our life.

Some of us may actually never "sleep"


I'll quote that scripture again, "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;....Heb. 2:14  Darren, it is only through the death of Christ and our death in Him and to the flesh that we destroy him who has the power of death...that is the devil.  Death (spiritually) brings life (spiritually).

Quote, "One final point, God does not take away blessings in order to curse us..."

" Darren I did'nt say that God would take away our blessings in order to curse us...I said that through disobedience they CAN become a curse.

Then you said, "it is only carnal man who would think such thoughts."

Well, I guess you got me there!! :)

In Him,

Dwight




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YellowStone

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Re: good and evil
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2007, 02:16:43 AM »

......."I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Gal. 2:20

"....I die daily." I Cor. 15:31.  Darren, this is exactly what Christianity teaches that Christ died that we don't have to die.  But as he is so are we in this world.  We must die to the flesh...daily.

Then you (Darren) say, "So I really do not think that "we help" in any way bringing about the death of Satan by our death, but rather by our life.

Some of us may actually never "sleep"


I'll quote that scripture again, "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;....Heb. 2:14  Darren, it is only through the death of Christ and our death in Him and to the flesh that we destroy him who has the power of death...that is the devil.  Death (spiritually) brings life (spiritually).

Dwight, I think we are seeing things a little differently, or perhaps we are seeing the same things from a different angle.

Please let me respond and then you can be the judge. :)

You said that: "We must die to the flesh...daily." This is a view point that I do not hold to. Did Christ have to die continually in order to pay the ransom for our sins?

Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

He died so that "death" would have no hold on his true believers. When Paul say's:

1Cr 15:31  I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

He is not talking a physical death, so what is he talking about?

Well I will repost a Scripture of yours :)

Gal. 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

This Scripture seems to follow very closely to Romans 6:6

Rom 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

The "Old Man" is the personification of our old carnal self and it is this carnal self that was crucified with Christ, not our we who have been made alive through Christ..

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Obviously having crucified the flesh, cannot be taken literally as no one commits sucuide. :)

Rom 6:11  Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 6:12  Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Rom 6:14  For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 6:22  But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Dwight, we don't literally die "in the flesh" daily. Neither do we literally crucify "our old man" (Rom 6:6) on a daily basis. What we do is to be continually aware of the beast within and "crucify" it metaphorically everytime it rears its ugly head, we do this by calling on our Father though faith. This is not a battle between me and myself; rather it is a battle between the old and the new; between my carnal nature led by Satan and my faith in the ransom paid by Christ and backed by God. Christs victory over sin may crucify my old carnal self daily, but my faith in him can only grow stronger, whilst ever He is the center of my being. Although my old self may die (metaphorically) over and over, Satan does not, all that I can hope is to lessen his strangle hold. His time will come. Ray has even stated that Satan will NOT be destroyed, but saved.

Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Dwight, I will repost the following Scripture, hoping that you now see where I am coming from.

Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Many thanks for this discussion. I do believe that we are seeing the same things, just wording it differently.

Your brother in Christ,
Darren
« Last Edit: April 07, 2007, 02:21:18 AM by YellowStone »
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DWIGHT

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Re: good and evil
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2007, 08:41:20 PM »

Hi Darren,

You're right we are seeing the same things in a different way.  That's what's so great about likeminded people in Christ.  It's good to cook both sides of the pancake. ;D

Your brother,

Dwight
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Jennie

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Re: good and evil
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2007, 11:57:30 PM »

The way I have understood this  about the tree of knowledge of good and evil is God was giving a choice to His creation. He did not make us robots but wanted us to think things through. God told what He expected of Adam and Eve but still gave them the choice in what they would do with it. I think about it like our children. We tell them what is acceptable and okay for their best interests but they choose to follow our instructions or not. Jennie
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Kat

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Re: good and evil
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2007, 11:13:11 AM »


Hi Jennie,

That we have no free will can really be difficult to swallow.  You should read Ray's 4 part series on 'The Myth of Free Will Exposed,'  here is the links.

The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part A
The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part B
The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part C
The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part D

Here are a couple of emails that will give you a brief explaination.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,627.0.html --------

Dear Harry:
I said this about a hundred times now, so I guess I can say it one more: "MAKING A CHOICE HAS ABSOLUTELY, TOTALLY, NOTHING TO DO WITH 'FREE WILL.'"  We all make choices all day long and NONE of us has a "free will" to make "free" choices. All choices are CAUSED by something, and therefore, they are not free.
God be with you,
Ray

http://bible-truths.com/email5.htm#puppets ----------------------------

[Ray Replies]

Dear Grace:

Your feelings and thoughts are not unusual.  Many people who come into a knowledge of the Truth [Jesus] have a real battle on their hands for some time.

YES, God is in control of EVERYTHING--EVERY THING!!!

Consider the alternative of this fact. God IS NOT IN CONTROL OF ANYTHING!!! Would that make you happier? Of course not.  It's just that we want to place God where WE THINK HE SHOULD FIT INTO OUR FRAME OF THINKING.

Either God created His own ENEMY (Satan), or Satan created HIMSELF and God was helpless to stop him and has been loosing out to Satan by a ratio of ten to one for the past so many thousands of years. This is what Christendom teaches. This is NOT what the Scriptures teach.

By the way, we are considerably more complex than a mere puppet.  But it is true that God controls us every bit as much as a puppeteer controls a puppet. And God is not ashamed to admit that this is the case. God says that a man CANNOT DIRECT HIS OWN STEPS, that the response of the tongue IS FROM THE ETERNAL, that ALL IS OF GOD, that God is operating ALL according to the counsel of His own will, that HE Himself is the CREATOR OF EVIL, it was God who planted the forbidden fruit tree in the garden than contained not only good, but a knowledge of EVIL as well, it is GOD who sets up the rulers of all governments, one can only come to Christ when God decides to "draw [Greek, drag] him to Christ," and a thousand and one other things. So why do we have trouble believing all these Scriptures?

You ask why Christ should die for the sins of humanity which were known and brought about by God Himself? I would as you of what purpose would be Christ's crucifixion if it saved no one except those who somehow came to Christ by their own free will ASIDE from any "drawing of the Father"? 

The problem is, Grace, that we have been so brainwashed by the pagan and heretical theories of carnal-minded men that it is difficult to believe and rejoice in the plain, simple, and yet marvelously profound truths of God's Perfect Plan for the Salvation of all Mankind!

Meditate on this theme for a couple of years, Grace, and it will all become very clear--trust me, it will!

Sincerely,

Ray
------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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Jennie

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Re: good and evil
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2007, 10:03:35 PM »

The wonder of God to me is that He does know all is the creator of all He grants us this life. Of course, I do believe that all our choices are based on something in our lives. If ya'll will indulge me just a minute.... I have 1 whole brother and a half brother. Our Daddy was an alcoholic which ended up killing him. My Daddy has asked me before why me and my brother were different from our half brother. He has been in prison 3 times, is a meth- addict, an alcoholic and has 8 children with 5 different women and supports none of them. He has broken into my Daddy's home and stole everything he could including Daddy's truck. Daddy has taken out many bank loans to bail him out of trouble. My brother is a career military man, has a lovely family and a good home. We also have a lovely family and now (since it has been fixed from the fire) have a lovely home as well. Me and my brother are far from wealthy but have always worked , paid our bills and took care of what we needed to. We never even thought about going to our parents to help us out . Now  I am not saying that we are any better than our half brother but we were blessed to have our Mama to teach us and also grand-parents to teach us. Our half-brother didn't have that. That's not to say he couldn't have made better choices, he could have but didn't.  For whatever reasons it happened. Something was in me and my brother that made us cautious of alcohol and all so we avoided it because we didn't ant our families to have to go through it. Our half-brother didn't have that same caution. The wonder of God though is that He loves us all the same. My half brother can decide to turn his life around. It wouldn't be easy but he could do it. Our circumstances were sort of the same but different too and our choices in life have been different. I don't know if this makes any sense to anyone but me but that's just how I look at it. I don't understand all of it but I know that it is all in God's hands. He has my life. Jennie
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Kat

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Re: good and evil
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2007, 11:13:53 PM »


Hi Jennie,

We are all in this life where we are suppose to be.  We do not choose the life we are born into, some are vessels of honor, some are also born to dishonor.

2Ti 2:20  But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor.

This life is a time to experience both good and evil, and we go where we are caused to go.

Jer 10:23  I know, O LORD, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.

Here is a email of Ray's that futher shows we have no free will.

http://bible-truths.com/email13.htm#passion -------------------

You state that Jesus KNEW BEFORE HE CREATED THE WORLD that "...mankind was going to turn away from God," even though (according to all Christendom and the wisdom of this pagan world) He gave EVERY ONE OF THOSE HUMANS a "free-moral-agency-will" by which NOT ONE OF THEM HAD TO, OR WERE CAUSED TO, "turn away from God."

If they truly had a "free will," that is a will to make choices that are NOT CAUSED or INFLUENCED in any way by God Himself through the billions of circumstances throughout one's life (See Phil. 2:3, Eph. 1:11, and hundred more just like them), why did they ALL choose to "turn away from GOD?" That is a very very very negative thing! That FIFTY BILLION our of FIFTY BILLION "free wills" ('FREE' wills--'FREE' mind you) would ALL DO THE SAME NEGATIVE AND EVIL THING. WHY?

Is "free will" just inherently 'NEGATIVE?'  Is there something about man's will that just ALWAYS goes the WRONG WAY, unless and until a more POWERFUL POSITIVE FORCE (might I suggest the Holy Spirit of God?) influences these 'free-wills' to TURN TO GOD, rather than to turn away from God?  But wait! If it takes a more positive OPPOSING force to CAUSE these free will to turn TO GOD, rather than AWAY FROM GOD, then have we not just SCRAPPED THE WHOLE IDEA THAT THE WILL IS 'FREE' IN THE FIRST PLACE? Why, yes we did; OF COURSE WE DID. There is NO FREE WILL IN MAN. Man has a "CARNAL MIND." Do you doubt what I say?  ALL MEN ARE BORN WITH A CARNAL MIND!

I believe there is a Scripture somewhere on that... Let's try Rom. 8:2,

"For the LAW of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus have MADE ME FREE..."

No, that is not what Christendom and her High Priests teach. They teach that we are BORN FREE. That EVERY MAN HAS A 'FREE' will. But notice what this Scripture says, it takes a "LAW" to MAKE [when something 'MAKES' a person do something, he is no longer 'free' to do otherwise]... to MAKE "me FREE" Paul tells us.  Now then, what does this "Law of the Spirit" MAKE us free from?

"..from the LAW if sin and death."

Another "LAW"! Do you realize just what a law is? A law is something that ALWAYS works in the same predetermined manner. Hence the Law of Gravity--which ALWAYS pulls things DOWN and not UP.
The 'law of sin and death' is a downward pull that NO CARNAL MIND CAN RESIST. Therefore, the idea that he possesses a free will that can CHOOSE TO NOT BE PULLED DOWN, is unscriptural foolishness!

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh [the flesh is weak and it cannot 'free-will' itself to be anything BUT weak and totally incapable of TURNING TO A GOD WHO IS STRONG], God sending His Own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk NOT after the [weak] flesh [which always turns away from God] but after the Spirit [which is STRONG and ALWAYS turns toward God].

For they that are after the flesh [a LAW of the flesh] do mind the things of the flesh [why? why don't they us 'free-will' themselves NOT to 'mind the things of the flesh?']: but they that are after the Spirit [the LAW of the Spirit] the things of the Spirit.  For to be carnally minded [that's how we are all born--first the natural, the carnal, then the afterwards the SPIRITUAL, I Cor. 15:46] is DEATH; but to be spiritually minded is LIFE and peace. [And just why is that so?]... Because the carnal mind is enmity [deep-seated HATRED] against God [how can this be since the carnal mind is FREE to NOT hate God?

The carnal mind is NOT FREE, it CANNOT freely choose to NOT HATE GOD. That takes another LAW--the POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT] against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, NEITHER INDEED C-A-N BE. [This verse says that the natural carnal mind of ALL MANKIND, absolutely CAN NOT 'freely choose' to follow and love God!]. So then they that are IN THE FLESH [Randy, every single person ever born is born IN THE FLESH] CANNOT please God. [They CANNOT! If they truly had a "free will" then they could 'freely WILL' TO PLEASE GOD, couldn't they?]

No, Randy, they couldn't, because they have no such will that is "free." We all have a "will" alright, but is is anything but FREE. It follows the "law of the flesh" every time. Only the opposing force of the SPIRIT OF GOD can CAUSE MAN'S WILL to desire God and to voluntarily seek to please God. Yes, I voluntarily will to please God, but not because some phantom 'free will' allowed me to make that choice, but rather because "God DRAGGED ME to Christ" (John 6:44). And how thankful I am that He did. No, Randy, there will not be a FEW in heaven and the MAJORITY in hell for all eternity. God commissioned Jesus Christ to be the SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD. And Mel Gibson's film portrays that ultimate Sacrifice to bring about the World's salvation. The utter shame and pity of it all is, that YOU and BILLIONS like you, DO NOT BELIEVE IT!!

You both believe and teach that JESUS CHRIST WILL NOT IN A TRILLION TRILLION EONS, ever "save the world."--the only commission that His Father in Heaven gave Him to do (I John 4:14). Are we to laud Christ's supreme sacrificed and then suggest to the world that IT FAILED TO ACCOMPLISH ITS PURPOSE?  That Jesus will be a FAILURE in saving the world? 

You know what I wish, Randy? I wish a million news papers around the world would print this email of mine to you, in their editorials!

May God be with you, and give you the faith to begin believing the Scriptures and not the perverted and evil doctrines of men.

Ray
------------------------------------------------------

Hope this helped  :)

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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Jennie

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Re: good and evil
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2007, 11:46:22 PM »

Am I understanding right that what is being said is that , in our situation, my half brother cannot change his ways? He has to keep having kids, has to keep using alcohol and meth and doing things to send him to jail? I don't mean this in a controversial way but just to understand. Jennie
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Craig

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Re: good and evil
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2007, 09:12:21 AM »

Am I understanding right that what is being said is that , in our situation, my half brother cannot change his ways?

No you are not understanding right.  Sure your brother can change his ways if God decides to drag him from the gutter of sin.  It is only by the grace of God that you or I don't have the same problems or worse than your brother.  We are all created as fallen "sinning machines" and we do our jobs very well.  Until God decides to pull us out of our sins we will continue to make the choices that our natures dictate. 

I don't understand why God creates some as vessels of honor and others dishonor, but I do know that God is in charge and knows what he is doing, and in the end it will work to perfection. 

We can do nothing of ourselves to change our ways, can a leopard change his spots?  But through judgment we will eventually be made to perfection, I, you and your brother.

Blessings
Craig
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DWIGHT

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Re: good and evil
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2007, 02:14:22 PM »

Hi Darren and Craig,

Maybe there's a difference between those that are called and those that are chosen.  Many are called, including the whole world, right?  Because, eventually, the whole world will be saved, albeit in a different age.  Man, through the creation, can see the invisible things of God so that he is without excuse but like the scripture says,

"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." Rom. 3:11

"An evil man seeketh only rebellion..."
Pro. 17:11

Yet there hundreds of scriptures that talk about seeking God and finding Him if we seek Him with our whole heart.  What I'm saying is that God may only be drawing (dragging) those that He wants to draw in this present age now, and later will draw all men to Himself.  It is all God's doing one way or another.

Just some thoughts,

Dwight
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Jennie

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Re: good and evil
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2007, 03:00:29 PM »

I don't know why the page 2 of this topic is not showing up... maybe it is just not showing on my computer. That part made sense to me and I wish I could go back to re-read it. Was it removed for some reason? Jennie
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