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Author Topic: 2 Corinthians 4:18 email to Ray (hell is real).  (Read 2545 times)

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andrevan

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2 Corinthians 4:18 email to Ray (hell is real).
« on: April 23, 2007, 08:03:03 AM »

A recent email to Ray:

Dear RAY,
     
    2 Corinthians 4:18 "So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal [Aeonian]".
     
    If we use your theory, that aion means an "age", then this verse can say "what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is also temporary"?!?!?
     
    You better check this out and repent.
     
    Repent soon,
     
    Jacob.


Dear Jacob:

    Oh REALLY?  Maybe it is YOU who needs to repent? One verse, huh?

    I had a wanna-be theologian once challenge me on this same verse. Of course he didn't have anymore of a clue as to the meaning of this verse than you do. Here is my comment to his unscriptural heresy. All my statements start with "COMMENT:....." and are in blue print:

    [2 Cor 4:18]:

    "Since we consider and look not to the things that are seen [temporal - temporary] but to things that are unseen [spiritual - eternal]; for the things that are visible are temporal (brief and fleeting), but the things that are invisible are deathless and everlasting

    Comment: The concept of "eternity" is foreign to the Holy Scriptures. There is virtually nothing that is outside of the time periods known as aions. There are just a couple of hints regarding life beyond the ages of time. Luke speaks of things pertaining to the Kingdom, not coming to an end. And Paul tells us that in resurrection we will have "incorruption" and "immortality" signifying "deathlessness," but neither word has to do with time itself. Paul also speaks of a time in which God will be "ALL in all." That is the extent to which the Scriptures even hint of eternity or anything beyond the ages of time.

    II Cor. 4:18 is neither speaking of "deathless" or "everlasting," as you suggest. It is speaking of what is happening now, in our life of flesh, and what will happen during the ages of our reign with Christ in the kingdom of God. The things of this life, we SEE daily. The things pertaining to the Kingdom of God are as yet "NOT seen." Again, it is not even speaking of what is "visible" and "Invisible," but rather what is NOW SEEN as compared with things "eonian" and NOT YET SEEN, which when seen will not be temporary, but will last through whole eons of time. And all that is perfected through the Kingdom of God and the reign of Christ bringing all enemies into subjection, will last on PAST the eons, and will have NO END.

    The next great event in prophecy is not eternity, but rather the END of this eon and the BEGINNING of the next—the one in which the very elect will reign with Christ. There is no sense in jumping into eternity when as yet, we have numerous ages to yet live and administer God’s government and His Great Judgment. And so, what is not yet seen, is "eonian" (pertaining to the eons), and not "eternity" as you and the King James suggests in this verse.


    ..............................................................[Grk] "aionios"

    Here in this passage the contrast is between the temporal and the eternal

    Comment: No, it is contrasting what is "seen" now and what is "not seen," now, but is yet future.

        -          the material and the spiritual.
    Comment: No, strictly speaking it is not contrasting material with spiritual, but rather what is perceived in this temporary life and what is ahead as our reward in the Kingdom.

    Surely the Greek word "aionios" could not be translated to mean "age" which would force the passage to provide a meaning of comparing the difference between spiritual things which then, because of the mistranslation of "aionios", portray spiritual things lasting just for a finite age as opposed to temporal things which do not last for an age.

    Comment: You are arguing from a false premise. Plus you misrepresent aionios on both ends of the spectrum. From your point of view, you want to extend what pertains to the ages into ETERNITY. And from the perspective of the Truth, that is what the word actually means, you are trying to limit it to ONE SINGLE AGE. Neither is true. Aionios is the adjective of the noun aion, and as such it must mean "that which pertains to ages." It could be one or many ages, just as the adjective "hourly" pertains to hours. It could be pertaining to only one, but it could also be pertaining to very many hours. But it must pertain to hours, and not weeks, months, or centuries!


    We know that spiritual things prove out to last longer. Furthermore, this meaning makes no sense in the context which Paul is establishing which is a permanence of spiritual things over the temporary nature of the material world.

    Comment: No, Paul is not speaking of spiritual things over the material world. Notice the previous verse:

            "For our light affliction, which is but for a moment [this is temporary, and this is what Paul tells us we are NOW OBSERVING], works for us a far more exceeding and AIONIOS weight of glory."


    Paul is contrasting the [1] ‘light affliction’ with [2] and ‘exceeding weight of glory.’ This cannot be denied, for I have just merely numbered the two contrasting points he is making. Now then, we know that the ‘light affliction’ is as he says ‘momentary’—it is SEEN, it is NOW, and it is TEMPORARY. But, he tells us that this NOW SEEN TEMPORARY affliction will bring us an EXCEEDING WEIGHT OF GLORY. WHEN? Why IN THE RESURRECTION, of course, the first resurrection, when we will be GLORIFIED WITH CHRIST and… and what?  Why we are to be "kings and priests" with our Lord. When?  All through ETERNITY?  NO, during the "oncoming ages." These verses are speaking of the trials we now see and are enduring for a temporary moment, contrasted with the glory that will be ours IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD on this earth ruling and reign with Christ THROUGH THE AGES, not for eternity. Not even Christ rules as "King" for eternity.

    Therefore the Greek word "aionios" must mean eternal or everlasting.


    Comment: Nonsense, it means eonians—pertaining to the oncoming AGES. Our glorious reign with Christ on the earth over the nations is for the AGES, not for eternity. The reign of Christ COMES TO AND END, just as aionios comes to an end (I Cor 15:25-26).

    Maybe you would like to read the whole paper from which this was excerpted. It is found on our home page:   "Is EVERLASTING Scriptural?"

    God be with you,

    Ray


It interests me how many eternal punishment advocates will try such desperate measures to force "everlasting" into the Scriptures when pertaining to torment, punishment etc. Unfortunately for them they will always end up in a dead end  ;). As usual Ray answers in a clear and teachable manner, so every day I learn a little more truth from all these emails coming in. Ray's patience is more than I presently have, another lesson for me  ;D.

“Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages [Gk: aion] to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.” Hebrews 9:26 NIV translation.

“since it had behoved him many times to suffer from the foundation of the world, but now once, at the full end of the ages [Gk: aion], for putting away of sin through his sacrifice, he hath been manifested” Hebrews 9:26 YLT translation.

If we translate "aion" into "eternal", then in the above verse we get:

“Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the eternities/for ever and evers/everlastings to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.”
Whoops!

This clearly makes no sense, as eternity, everlasting, forever and ever does not come to an end. “Aion” means none of these words. This scripture proves that the Greek word aion means an age. Likewise the adjective “aionios” equally means age-lasting, age-abiding or age-during.

A period of time that ends (age) is opposite to “eternity” and “forever and ever” which never comes to an end.

I wonder if the author of that email could explain away that one.

Any thoughts?

God’s peace to you all.
Andrevan.
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: 2 Corinthians 4:18 email to Ray (hell is real).
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2007, 06:11:39 PM »


Good one! Andrevan  ;D

Your question might be interpreted as angry, sarcastic or even hostile and aggressive by the one to whom the question is addressed but here in the Forum we know better!  8)  ;D

Anger, hostility and aggression all give way to being set free by the truth yet persecution does follow for being free!

What a joy as we wait for Christ to return as He approaches us in His Wisdom Knowledge and Understanding we begin to glow in HIM. Keep right on shining!  ;D

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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YellowStone

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Re: 2 Corinthians 4:18 email to Ray (hell is real).
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2007, 07:26:56 PM »

Good post Andrevan  :)

I know that the JW's do not use the terms Everlasting or Eternal in their WatchTower Bible. They prefer to use the term "Time Indefinite," which basically means a "time unknown."

I think their interpretation lends itself to Ray's. Isn't it interesting how God measures the amount of Spiritual Truth. :)

Your brother in Christ,
Darren
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Nelson

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Re: 2 Corinthians 4:18 email to Ray (hell is real).
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2007, 06:52:55 AM »

Hi folks,

The New World Translation (NWT) JW Bible is actually a decent translation in most scriptures, but there are many areas where changes have been made to suit their doctrines. It does bring out an accurate rendering of many of the Hebrew scriptures though and I actually prefer it for reading the Psalms.

There is no substitution though for checking out the original languages to learn and understand the truth in scripture. A very good tool for this is the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer (ISA) which enables a search of a particular Hebrew and/or Greek word and all occurrences of it. It also gives you additional information such as case, gender, Strong's numbers etc. It can be found at

http://www.scripture4all.org/

By the way Yellowstone, the NWT does use everlasting,

  • "And these will depart into everlasting [aionion] cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting [aionion] life" (Mt 25:46)

I was a JW for 15 years and used this Bible all the time. I can quote it automatically and so I knew it said everlasting, and it does in many other places too. It is a decent translation but an even better one that the WTS produced was the 'Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures' which is a Greek interlinear with the NWT in a side column.

I used it when some elders visited me to 'discuss' the 'teachings' I was putting on my web site. They said that I might stumble other Witnesses who still viewed me as a Witness. I used Jo 8:44, reading the Greek sub-linear which clearly shows that Satan has 'not stood' in the truth, I asked them a simple question,

"If I said I have NOT STOOD at the top of Blackpool tower, would you think that I have ever been there, or that I have been there but just didn't remain there?"

They said that it was obvious that I have not been there, then I read the scripture to them and asked the same about Satan and the truth. They couldn't answer! One then started to ridicule me saying that I couldn't see things clearly, the other was dumbfounded, he confessed that he thought it is interesting and that he will need to study it further. I never saw them or any other elders again.

If any of you ever get talking to Witnesses, encourage them to use their Interlinear, most of them have a copy but they rarely use it. Usually only elders or ministerial servants actually use it for preparing talks from the platform for the congregation. It is a very good reference book and it shows 'aion' to mean 'age' in the sub-linear. It is very good for reasoning with Witnesses as they only like to use their own literature, and this IS a WTS publication and so they recognise it as 'authoritative'. Interestingly, they put 'everlasting' under the word 'aionion' at Matthew 25:46.

Just something I thought I'd share as 15 years as a JW was part of my 'road' to the truth.

Love, grace and peace to you all

Nelson
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andrevan

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Re: 2 Corinthians 4:18 email to Ray (hell is real).
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2007, 10:45:39 AM »

Hi Nelson, thanks for such an informative post. I often use my ISA for cross referencing, it's a good tool to have. Interesting what you said:
 
Quote
It is a very good reference book and it shows 'aion' to mean 'age' in the sub-linear.
and
Quote
Interestingly, they put 'everlasting' under the word 'aionion' at Matthew 25:46
Do JW's believe in "everlasting annihilation" and "everlasting punishment"? Just curious  :).

I'm so happy you're here with us now and no longer in the JW, thanks to God.

Quote
Your question might be interpreted as angry, sarcastic or even hostile and aggressive by the one to whom the question is addressed but here in the Forum we know better!
Arcturus, this may well be how it appears, but true, we know better. It is not the way I intended it to sound, without my tone of voice and body language one could easily get offended  :D.

Quote
They prefer to use the term "Time Indefinite," which basically means a "time unknown."
Hi Darren, your statement made me think of something: that we don't know the length of an age, so it could be considered a "time unknown".

God's peace to you all.
Andrevan.
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rk12201960

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Re: 2 Corinthians 4:18 email to Ray (hell is real).
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2007, 11:12:15 AM »

Hi Nelson,
I to was a JW for 13 years.
No elders came and spoke to me because I showed them that Jehovah was Jesus before his time on earth.

Of course they D/F me and no one in the congregation speaks to me.
Its good to have someone here that took the same road here as I did.

I'm glad God took me hear but not till I went to the Living Church then the Restored Church of God.
Its was new teachings but sill didn't have any weight or substance.
Then i found Rays site and God has blessed me with a true family.

It is Good to have to have you here also.

Peace and wisdom.
Your brother in Christ
Randy  ;D 8) ;D
PS I did make the truth my own., with Gods direction and Rays site.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2007, 11:14:13 AM by Randy »
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seminole

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Re: 2 Corinthians 4:18 email to Ray (hell is real).
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2007, 12:30:03 PM »

I am confused. JW is Jehovah Witness I think but what is WTS?
Seminole
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cherokee

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Re: 2 Corinthians 4:18 email to Ray (hell is real).
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2007, 01:48:52 PM »

Seminole,

JW does stand for Jehovah's Witnesses, as for WTS, I believe it stands for Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.

Randy & Nelson,

I was never a JW, but did study with them for awhile. I did not agree with everything they taught but they did help me onto the road to truth. Alot of what they taught made sense and in my search to find the truth in what they taught, I found Ray's site and what a blessing it has been. I am so grateful to be here and though I have not joined in very many post I do come here everyday to read and learn.

Ever learning in Christ,
Suzie

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rk12201960

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Re: 2 Corinthians 4:18 email to Ray (hell is real).
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2007, 03:10:43 PM »

Hi Suzie
You are correct about WTS.
I use to go door to door. I met some happy and angry people.
I use to love going to bible studies with the new students.

It was a hard burden set on by man to follow what they (I) believed.
5 meetings a week, personal study, family study, district conventions, etc.......

They were at the time the nearest thing to truth that I'd seen until God started to open my eyes.
It was a hard break as I lost family and Friends that I held close to my heart, but I knew that there was more to knowing God than they could offer.

God then set me on this path and here I am.  ;D

I've met new family and Friends here. Some closer Than others but all my brothers and sisters and all have brought me blessings from God.  ;D


Its good to be home.
Peace wisdom and love
Your brother in Christ Jesus (Jehovah)
Randy  ;D 8) ;D
« Last Edit: April 24, 2007, 03:14:09 PM by Randy »
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