> General Discussions
John 1
Redbird:
Cindy,
That was a delight to read. I do not recall ever hearing those verses in the "church" and I was so touched the first time I came across John 1 in my bible. It was like the beginning to really seeing the light.
Thank you sister,
Lisa
humblebob:
Hi to everyone (incidentally, "humblebob" does not refer to the character quality but to my residence, Humble, Texas). ;)
Thanks Cindy for your diligent search into Greek insights from John chapter 1. The word "photizo" in John 1.9, translated, in the Amplified, "illumines," is of course very important, because whatever this word "photizo" signifies, Christ performs it toward "every person." Perhaps the word means that Christ gives every person sufficient revelation of God so that they are without excuse as to the requirement to repent (Acts 17.30, Romans 1.20, 3.19, 11:32, etc).
Such an interpretation of John 1:9 would likely be agreeable to Calvinists, Arminians, and Universalists alike. They would all agree that every person is required to repent and has been given adequate revelation to do so. But the three groups would of course disagree on how all of humanity would eventually respond to the illumination of John 1.9. For the Calvinist, only the elect (a sub-group of all humans) will respond in a saving way, for the Arminian, only those who exercise their free choice properly will respond (again a sub-group of all humans), and to the Universalist ALL will eventually respond and be saved. (Also, in theory, there could be some Arminians and Calvinists who are also Universalists but I'm not aware of this).
If the word "photizo" in John 1.9 could be shown to mean, when properly translated, that Christ brings everyone to a saving knowledge of God, then the verse would seem to endorse Universalism (assuming, of course, that the term "every person" really means "every individual person" and not "every category of person" as the Calvinist would insist)!
While we probably can't resolve the Calvinist / Arminian / Universalist debate from John 1.9 alone, this verse does illustrate the importance of individual Greek words in our pursuit of theological insight.
Best regards, HumbleBob.
hebrewroots98:
Wow, Humblebob, i noticd that this was your first post....WELCOME...to another Texan ;D!!!(How far is Humble from Lubbock-where I live?) Are there any other like minded believers in your area; or family memebers? Good post...keep it coming!
pylady:
Hi humblebob,
Welcome, it's good to hear from you.
I'm not familiar with the arminian religion, but I sure searched a lot of other religions and philosophys of men. Found they were all teachings and opinions of men. They talk and discuss and interperate endlessly, but don't listen to the clear ring of truth in God's own word.
Will the light of Christ Jesus bring a SAVING (I don't dare underline ;)) knowledge of God to all mankind? Let's ask Him.
Is 45:22,23 "Turn to Me and be saved all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself, the word has gone forth, from My mouth in righteousness and will not turn back. That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. They will say of Me, only in the Lord are righteousness and strength."
1John2:2 "for He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."
1Tim 4:9,10 It is a trustworthy statement deserving of full acceptance...we have fixed our hope on the living God who is the Savior of ALL men, especially of those who believe."
1Samuel 14:14 "Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, He devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from Him."
Phil 2:10,11 "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."
Those are just a few Scriptures that show salvation for all men. Have you read any of Ray's articles, especially the Lake of Fire series? He gives many, many scriptures to prove salvation of all, and much much more.
Christian love,
Cindy
humblebob:
Hi Cindy,
In the Arminian / Calvinist debate that I referred to earlier, I understand that the terms "Arminian" and "Calvinist" refer to two schools of thought, i.e., two opposing streams of theological tradition, with regard to various aspects of Christian salvation. The Arminian tradition holds that humans exercise genuine, unencumbered free will in accepting or rejecting salvation, while Calvinists stress that God's direct, sovereign action, not human free choice, is the essential dynamic in human salvation. Also, while Arminians assert that God has made a universal offer of salvation to all people, Calvinists hold that Christian salvation was only intended by God to benefit the elect, who represent a non-universal sub-set of all people.
(If the above brief summation is oversimplified or in error, I welcome corrective input from those better informed on the subject).
In your list of Scripture references pertinent to Universalism, I was really blessed by your inclusion of 2 Samuel 14.14. Recently while preparing to debate and defend Ray's position on Universal salvation, I compiled what I thought to be the 15-20 most important Scripture references that would support my position. Somehow I missed 2 Samuel 14.14, even though I had run across it a few months ago in a study of 1 and 2 Samuel.
This passage in Samuel, reminds me of Romans 4.5 and 5.10, where God is said to justify the ungodly and to reconcile us to Himself while we were enemies. God has found a way to justify and to reconcile to Himself His ungodly enemies. While this fact alone might not prove Universalism, it does, I think, make Universalism more plausible. Since we know that God can justify an ungodly enemy, it only remains to be shown that God is willing to justify ALL ungodly ones (to which Arminians agree), and that God is able to justify ALL the ungodly ones whom He is willing to justify (to which Calvinists agree).
God Bless,
Humble Bob
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